Phoenix-Fly Coach Course

[mccordia 73]

You're not taken seriously, as you are not willing to discuss the real subject at hand. You choose to look away and ignore the important matters that lay at the basis of this whole discussion. Only trolling, and skimming the edges around a subject you dont dare to REALLY publicly critisize.

Where is your critique on other ratings/trainingmethods that have no substance, and have led to A LOT of unsafe practice and accidents?
Focus your energy there, and show you have an ACTUAL interest in this whole subject.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[VectorBoy 0]

I don't critisize when I personnally don't have the facts in regards to an event. I don't know what others do, I only know what I do. I can't bash a course I haven't personally taken. You have no problem bashing me or a course I might hypothetically give yet we've never met. I might be pretty good at it, it might have been revised and much improved over years of practice. Its definitely not rocket science. I'm pretty good at taking a bashing and coming out OK over it. I don't take it personal. Events change arguements are always the same.

Douglas just last night answered the two questions in a PM. Shame it took multiple posts and attacks.

For the lurkers:

What takes two days? Same thing that causes a USPA Coach rating to take 3 days.
Learning the syllabus, then teaching it. Then jumps to evaluate skill.

Governing bodies are years away from adopting a wingsuit instructor rating.

[mccordia 73]

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Douglas just last night answered the two questions in a PM. Shame it took multiple posts and attacks.

Than try reading next time, instead of doing those same old pitty attacks. And immidiately following each statement with judgement on things being shit, useless, etc. The same answer DSE mailed you, was already posted several times before (in this thread).

Why 2 days:
Class sessions (learning to do the actual briefing), repeating and showing those a lot of times. And than also actual examination jumps..

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I don't critisize when I personnally don't have the facts in regards to an event.

There's been plenty of times when other 'ratings' had people with 20 wingsuit jumps signed off, or other factual statements got posted. But for none of those you reply. Its funny you fling one accusation over another into virtual space, yet do pretty much the same thing yourself.

I (nor anyone else) dont bash the course you give. Just saying (noting) that in the recent streak of accidents 'self taught' coaches/instructors (whatever sticker you may want to put on that one) and poor judgement have shown to be at the root of the problem.
Yet you never mention or critisize the people who openly show that kind of conduct. But only resort to the same old copy/paste arguements everytime things related to the PFC stuff comes up.

That aside..its a shame threads for other systems (linked to the moderator itself) usually get cleaned up pretty quick, yet here there seems to be no personal interest t do the same..

Back on topic....
DSE is organising a PFC course, if you're interested in attending and have questions. Shoot him an email.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

I didn't realize Private Message were to become public, so we'll try this with a little more specific information.
You indicated your buddy has been blessed by his S&TA to do FFC's, that's great.
From the PF perspective, He still won't know the exits, the didactics, the kinesthetics, isometrics, EP's, and the very short, simple, specific exercises that students go through that have dramatically increased the success of FFC's. There are specific exercises to teach symmetrical pull strength for deployment. This reduces instability and potential for linetwist. There are muscle memory techniques applied to help the student learn body position without the words "body position" being used at any time. There's a lot more....

Teaching an FFC takes 45-90 minutes depending on the student's acumen. Since the candidate must learn how to teach the ground course and then teach it (sometimes more than once), there's roughly 4 hours right there.
Then we get into exits and other related techniques. They are repetitively practiced, Keywords taught and tested.
Written exam. Demonstration of rigging suits (in my course here, it's rigging Tony, PF, and Birdman, both zip and lace up) all take time.
Then the candidate has 3 jumps to get two satisfactory scores overall on the eval sheet. Candidates learn how to get "there" faster, where to fly for the best observance, how to scan the body in flight for better debriefings (what are you looking for when you're scanning), and where to be for optimal safety with emphasis on the point of deployment. Both candidate and examiner fly with cameras for best debrief information.
Most of the candidates I've had go through the course have done at least one/two practice jumps prior to the evals. That takes time.
Candidates also learn in-aircraft behavior and procedures, ground safety, and more. All related to the FFC. 60% of what the candidate learns in this course is never spoken to the FFC student, it's background info that makes for a more confident, knowledgeable, organized PFC. When the candidate comes out of the course, they'll know a lot more about their skills than they did going in.
It's quite similar to the AFF course in many, many ways.
The USPA Coach Course makes it a LOT easier to comprehend and move through the PFC course.

Hopefully this explains why the PFC course takes more than a couple of hours on the ground.

[jdatc 0]

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Where is your critique on other ratings/trainingmethods

Do the other programs have a syllabus that is readily viewable for a non instructor? Is the syllabus online for each program or available on the website? Powerpoints? Videos? Tests? Lesson Plans?

Is the info out there for someone to take a look at each of the programs in depth, including the training material and make a decision on which is better and why?

If not, why? From a Safety standpoint I would think the training info would be shared if that was the main concern.

FWIW, I am involved in training Air Traffic Controllers in the FAA, as a facility training instructor, On the job training instructor and union training representative besides my normal ATC duties... I have a *decent* grasp of what it takes to train individuals to succeed, if they have the ability.

Of course, that's probably the reason I have little motivation to do any kind of instructing in my hobbies.

However, if I change my mind otherwise, I'd like to take a look at each of these syllabus (syllabi?) and make my own judgement call before I committed to a course, Sfly, Phoenix Fly, Birdman, Etc... Is it possible?

_justin

[DSE 3]

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Where is your critique on other ratings/trainingmethods

Do the other programs have a syllabus that is readily viewable for a non instructor? Is the syllabus online for each program or available on the website? Powerpoints? Videos? Tests? Lesson Plans?

Is the info out there for someone to take a look at each of the programs in depth, including the training material and make a decision on which is better and why?

If not, why? From a Safety standpoint I would think the training info would be shared if that was the main concern.

FWIW, I am involved in training Air Traffic Controllers in the FAA, as a facility training instructor, On the job training instructor and union training representative besides my normal ATC duties... I have a *decent* grasp of what it takes to train individuals to succeed, if they have the ability.

Of course, that's probably the reason I have little motivation to do any kind of instructing in my hobbies.

However, if I change my mind otherwise, I'd like to take a look at each of these syllabus (syllabi?) and make my own judgement call before I committed to a course, Sfly, Phoenix Fly, Birdman, Etc... Is it possible?

_justin

No. The training material is not available in entirety online because if it were, there would be people out there giving themselves FFC's, and that's not something we're willing to be responsible for. It's also why there is no FFC in the Flock University "Wingsuits 101" training DVD.

The information is readily available to PFC's via PFC/E's.
The new SIM contains most of the PF syllabus, but of course the SIM lacks instructional methodology.

[VectorBoy 0]

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I didn't realize Private Message were to become public, so we'll try this with a little more specific information.
You indicated your buddy has been blessed by his S&TA to do FFC's, that's great.
From the PF perspective, He still won't know the exits, the didactics, the kinesthetics, isometrics, EP's, and the very short, simple, specific exercises that students go through that have dramatically increased the success of FFC's. There are muscle memory techniques applied to help the student learn body position without the words "body position" being used at any time. There's a lot more....

WOW! You are right I would never in a million years pass the current PFC test regimen. Using surrogate words to describe body position with out using the word " body position" is just brilliant ! I would have never thought of that. Effective use of didactics, Kinesthetics and Isometrics were beyond my comprehension while I wasted away years learning the theory of splitting the atom with early generation retro entabulators.... they were huge not first flightable for sure. PF must have gotten that bio-phase dangle arm small enough to use for instruction.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&feature=related. Here is me eight years ago with the old style entabulators. They are smaller nowhttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=10435;

I'm going to stick with the Tony suit method of instruction that doesn't require grammy arms or co-linear reluctance particals to make the suits work...... just gravity.

Oh my buddy for sure will be impressed ! He'll get back to you on the rating.

[DSE 3]

Kinda suprised you didn't know that kinesthesthetics and isometrics have been part of skydiving instruction for nearly two decades.
Big words, but also part of the USPA Coach rating program. I'm sure you can sound em' out, Glenn.

[VectorBoy 0]

I don't teach skydiving, don't have a coach rating. I occasionally teach sky flying to already taught skydivers and some CRW via much smaller words . Wanna see some funny faces use words like kinesthesia at a veteran CRW people gathering. There gonna think you bought a new party favor to the bonfire.

[mccordia 73]

Wow..passed the normal critique, onto critisizing writing style and use of words now?
Bad weather in the old folks home?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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No. The training material is not available in entirety online because if it were, there would be people out there giving themselves FFC's, and that's not something we're willing to be responsible for.

This is pathetic. Withholding essential material is bad.

In some countries over 500 jump having an FFC is just a recommendation and not a requirement...

[VectorBoy 0]

This is pathetic. Withholding essential material is bad.

..

[virgin-burner 1]

can you teach me to swoop!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mccordia 73]

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This is pathetic. Withholding essential material is bad.

Cool..when will the tandemmaster, AFF, etc etc manuals become online on the relative manufacturer/training/coaching websites?

And even than, you can read 20 manuals, and still suck at the practical execution. Fun to see the same couch-critics pop up with nothing to ad.
If you want to focus your energy one something, take a look at the fetal accidents that happened due to lack of proper instruction (and unwillingness of said coach to be trained by several noteworthy people in our sport/dicipline).

In all of those cases you guys play mute, and cowardly refrain from comments. Shows its more about an axe you're grinding that true intrest in proper instruction or safety. So by all means..continue bitching here with useless comments. Its all quite empty, as your reactions to actual important safety matters show...

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In some countries over 500 jump having an FFC is just a recommendation and not a requirement...

Yup...in some countries there even is no organisation or rules for wingsuit, and you could start offering first jump courses to noobs. And ethics would be the only thing holding one back from doing so.
Still wouldnt make any of the aforementioned training institutes like skydiveratings.com throw their entire silibus online for everyone to use..

Pathetic? Instead of proper instruction you advocate having everyone just go out and do what they 'read on the internet'. Now there is some sane advice...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[virgin-burner 1]

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Pathetic? Instead of proper instruction you advocate having everyone just go out and do what they 'read on the internet'. Now there is some sane advice...

i've read "the canopy and it's pilot" at least three times; does that mean next time i go out, i should just throw a 1080!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mccordia 73]

I wonder if Gabor and Glen's feathers are in any way ruffled by the fact that you sound more sane than they do...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[virgin-burner 1]

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I wonder if Gabor and Glen's feathers are in any way ruffled by the fact that you sound more sane than they do...

AND i have a tonysuit to boot!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I wonder if Gabor and Glen's feathers are in any way ruffled by the fact that you sound more sane than they do...

BMI Check List
This is out and available to anyone and still it summarizes the very essence of the FFC.

[mccordia 73]

Than why bother to comment here? You seem to know it all..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[VectorBoy 0]

If you want to focus your energy one something, take a look at the fetal accidents that happened due to lack of proper instruction (and unwillingness of said coach to be trained by several noteworthy people in our sport/dicipline).

In all of those cases you guys play mute, and cowardly refrain from comments. .

[VectorBoy 0]

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can you teach me to swoop!?

Yes but its is an 11 day course held at 9000 foot density altitude DZ. Be well rested and prepared to delve deep into the study of Gurgle spring alignment ratchets and indexing load commutating inductor duty cycles. Bring supplemental low drag yonkels and a cheese danish.

The cheese danish is for me.

[mccordia 73]

In both cases it was people offering them training, and missing important parts of the basic information anyone TEACHING this stuff should know, cover and make sure is understood.

That aside from the poor judgement in taking up those people in the first place. But you show your oppinion. Defending 2 deaths and ignoring the gaps in teaching and guidence by their instructors.

So yes...it shows you dont dare comment on the actual accidents. Just reply with the same twisting and turning as always.

I only advocate one thing. Safety and consistency in training. Regardless if its jump 1,2,5 or 10.
And when the people teaching dont adhere to a certain standard, we get the same sad results we've seen in the past.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[VectorBoy 0]

Nobody is, as you say, defending deaths. I'm not advocating under experieneced jumpers flying wingsuits so you can stop saying it. I'm not advocating lack of safety and consistency in training.

I'm not going to run out, get in line and buy your product you are pushing because its not a cure for guys teaching them selves, guys lying about experience and because it turns me and many others off that a person can be so arrogant to claim nobody can do it as well as they do because, well just because. No demonstratable reason.

In one case you have no clue if there was an instructor or the guy was self taught. You have no facts you are going on speculation But you like to blame storm. I don't like to blame storm without all of the facts.

[mccordia 73]

I have the facts straight about the cases Im refering to. But with no specifics mentioned, Im sure you have other ones where you have better details as well.

Im not pushing any product, but merely advocating safety.
Im not trying to 'stop' people from teaching (though they should). But just wanting to make sure that people who do it under a certain teaching standard are a safe choice for those who seek instruction or coaching.

And make sure people who teach fully understand their responsibilities. Though Im sure you will not agree (again).
You've made it clear you're not intersted in this subject time and time again. So move on..?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[VectorBoy 0]

You and your kind are blame storming neo maxi bio phase counter shaftless trunion coupled zummed liars 2nd generation.

Version 3 will be much smaller and speak japanese with half of the arrogance demerit points although cost twice as much.

Trust me you can get better WS instruction, but you can't pay more.