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DSE

Birdman no longer flying

By DSE, in Wing Suit Flying

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QuietStorm    0

QuietStorm

Glen;

You make some valid points.

Unlike a few; I have not built my entire end all be all and center of my existance around wingsuits; and never had an "ax to grind" against any particular manufacturer of wingsuit, canopy, or container system; nor anything to personally gain from promoting any of the above for my own benefit. :|

I make my living selling a highly engineered and custom fabricated product that is very expensive in a mature market category with 3 major competitors in a heated bloodbath stealing share from each other. The company I work for literally went from 2 guys in 2005 to $30 million is sales last year, 200 employees, and a factory in just 5 years. We manufacture a great product but our rapid rise to success really came from taking better care of our customers than our competitors.;)

My direct response to your opinion comes more from my "business perspective". For anybody who wants to make a living in a "tiny" skydiving economy/business category....there are some valuable lessons to be learned here. :|

Wingsuits and parachute equipment are engineered products custom fabricated to the owners needs and desires. For most of us skydiving is a hobby and discretional dollars are being spent so there is a lot of "high personal involvement" by the buyer when it comes to product.

A customer is everything; they are your lifeblood. If you want to do business in the United States in a competitive market place you have to be able to support your product with direct hands on technical service from a local factory person who can fix a problem and really help you when you need it.:|

Recently and over time there have been posts from folks who needed a Birdman wingsuit repaired looking on the internet for help. Years ago; I needed my old Birdman Firebird repaired and the best I could do was find a local rigger that felt he was competent enough to pull things apart, fix, and charge ...........for all the time he took to fix things. My other option was to call a phone number 1/2 across the world, hopefully speak to somebody good with English, and ship off my "treasured and most favorite toy - my wingsuit" in a box.....wait....and pray. From a consumer point of view.....not good. [:/]

In engineered and fabricated products; sometimes things go wrong despite everybody's best efforts, mistakes happen, nobody and nothing is perfect. It happens in my business. But when this happens how a manufacturer and the reps respond to support the product and customer make all the difference in business success or failure.;)

As a company and businessman you have to be "boots on ground" next to your customer, take care of things, correct the problem, support the product, give good service and make your customer happy. It does not matter if your are selling loading racks, parachutes, wingsuits, etc. As a manufacturer you have to be there for your customer.;)

You can't support any product in the U.S. from overseas without direct in country technical help and fabrication and repair facilities. :|

I own a Birdman Blade, a Tony Suit Super Mach 1, and the wife flies a Tony Intro. When your spouse skydives just take your budget and double it. Careful for what you wish for! :ph34r:

If something on our Tony Suits gets ripped, torn, screwed up, or needs fixing I can box my suit up, overnight UPS, track that package with a 1Z tracking number, see who signed for it, and speak with somebody who speaks English only 3 time zones away from me. I can discuss the problem, negotiate a price, have it fixed quickly, and track my package back to my doorstep via UPS. Bam! Problem solved.

Can Phoenix Fly provide this level of US Domestic Product Support ? I am very curious as this weighs very heavy in my decision matrix and acceptance criteria if I ever decided to buy another wingsuit.

Birdman was aware of realistic US domestic business threat presented by Tony Suits via "service" and did not adjust its business model. Most likely they lost a lot of share, sales, and failed to maintain critical mass cover production and make a profit; game over.....business closed.:|

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DSE    5

DSE
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Has anybody actually READ the statement? Birdman has CHANGED ownership, doesn't mean its gone, just means Jari is no longer the owner. Flame away

Edit for smart phone spelling



Yep, read it. "Not accepting orders" means "grounded" in my lexicon.

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RMK    3

RMK
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My other option was to call a phone number 1/2 across the world, hopefully speak to somebody good with English, and ship off my "treasured and most favorite toy - my wingsuit"



Unless you happen to live in the same city/town as the manufacturer, sending off an item is the same hassle for 500km as it is for 5000 miles (that’s 310miles or 3100miles). We’re in a minority sport, so if you want to buy the best selection of equipment, you’ll be dealing with multiple countries. Example (my views): best canopy/container = US, best altimeter/audible = Denmark, best helmet = Slovakia, Best ADD = Germany, etc

The world outside of the US is not such a “scary place”. To note:

- US leads the world in credit card fraud
- US is only industrialised country not using chip/pin credit card security
- Measurements?? WTF, US is one of only three countries on the planet not using the metric system (only others are Liberia and Myanmar)

English usage? I find I encounter better command of the English language from persons in the Netherlands, Germany or France than southern Florida. Phone costs? International calls are extemely cheap now if you use a service. Living in one of the most expensive places in the world, I can call the US or Australia for 1p/minute - it costs me more to ring my local pizza delivery.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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SkymonkeyONE    4

SkymonkeyONE
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Shame to see one of the initial companies desolve their wingsuit production. I think many saw that one coming at some point with the increased focus on clothing, but nobody expected to see it happen this fast...

The company and its two founding members put a strong stamp on the sport and dicipline...



You got that right, Jarno. It was the vision of those two people which gave each and every one of us the ability to take flight. It was that company which built a bunch of suits and took their show on the road and showed everyone that wingsuiting was NOT sport death. Nothing but love for Jari, that's for DAMN sure.

Chuck

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QuietStorm    0

QuietStorm
Quote

Quote

My other option was to call a phone number 1/2 across the world, hopefully speak to somebody good with English, and ship off my "treasured and most favorite toy - my wingsuit"



Unless you happen to live in the same city/town as the manufacturer, sending off an item is the same hassle for 500km as it is for 5000 miles (that’s 310miles or 3100miles). We’re in a minority sport, so if you want to buy the best selection of equipment, you’ll be dealing with multiple countries. Example (my views): best canopy/container = US, best altimeter/audible = Denmark, best helmet = Slovakia, Best ADD = Germany, etc

The world outside of the US is not such a “scary place”. To note:

- US leads the world in credit card fraud
- US is only industrialised country not using chip/pin credit card security
- Measurements?? WTF, US is one of only three countries on the planet not using the metric system (only others are Liberia and Myanmar)

English usage? I find I encounter better command of the English language from persons in the Netherlands, Germany or France than southern Florida. Phone costs? International calls are extemely cheap now if you use a service. Living in one of the most expensive places in the world, I can call the US or Australia for 1p/minute - it costs me more to ring my local pizza delivery.


Awesome Reply! :)
* No; the world outside the US is not such a "scary" place. I really want to get over to Europe as there is a lot of neat things for me to see and do on my "Bucket List" Mexico....Mexico; is scary. Come to the border in Arizona and I'll show you why.

* Yes we lead the world in all kinds of fraud and the reason we don' have chip credit card security probably has something to do with BIG MONEY....I guess.

* Metric System. Your right; I got "converted" back in high school in all my advanced placement chemistry and physics classes. I DROVE MY SHOP TEACHERS INSANE. I did all my mechanical drawing / drafting in metric and asked for wrenches in millimeter sizes. I was "forced" to convert all my drafting to SAE; so I would turn in 2 sets of drawings....one in SAE and the other in metric!

And my first car was a Triumph TR-7; all my high school friends "wrenched on" and restored triumphs. Wow...where those manuals fun! Words like bonnet, petrol, and "whilst" .......Lucas electric proved to be the Prince of Darkness and gave me valid explanation why British beer was served warm. Oh yeah; you guys were pumping out the best Rock music in the 80's.

* English language - You are right again; having attened college in the American South, marrying a Southern Belle, and living there for 7 years your statement is once again correct. I PLEAD to my children ( not living with me ) that if they want to be "world competitive" today....they need to speak at least 3 languages like many of my European skydiving friends. Yes, you are correct. I hear English spoken better by Germans than many Americans.

My audibles are L&B, Cypress is my AAD; hey.....tell me about these helmets out of Slovakia!

Blue Skies! :)

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pierre3636    0

pierre3636
not so much ... i recall hearing something a year or so ago about massive capital fraud within the company expenses. Running court costs might have something to do with the blow up. Also TS grabbed the biggest market share and grew the business, BM simply got left behind due to lack of innovation. Sad but true.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

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RMK    3

RMK
Slovakian helmets I referred to were TonFly www.tonfly.com Very nice; though not the cheapest prices for headwear.

You owned a vintage British sports car? You are either a masochist or a skilled mechanic. Even Brits give old British cars a wide berth- preferring our German counterparts.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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pierre3636    0

pierre3636
oh totally my own view (from looking around me in formations) sorry i should have added that, - its just makes sense right - made in the US. most skydiver in the US, people know TS and its reputation. No overseas shipping and waiting and time differences and all that crap.

for the record I have bought 2 BM suits when i started flying suits, I own PH suits (i love my stealth) and now TS as well.

no cares to get involved in a brand war conversation.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

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kallend    1,827

kallend
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Slovakian helmets I referred to were TonFly www.tonfly.com Very nice; though not the cheapest prices for headwear.

You owned a vintage British sports car? You are either a masochist or a skilled mechanic. Even Brits give old British cars a wide berth- preferring our German counterparts.



I have a 1946 MG. No way I'd trade for or want a 1946 VW:P
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Zeemax    0

Zeemax
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its just makes sense right - made in the US. most skydiver in the US, people know TS and its reputation. No overseas shipping and waiting and time differences and all that crap.



Overseas shipping means nothing :)

Not trying to get involved in a brand war, just like clarity.
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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Zeemax    0

Zeemax
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Sounds like you've never shipped to Coos Bay Oregon. We lots of little isolated bergs with horrid shipping schedules. Careful what you promiss.



The shipping time would be the same as a domestic shipment ;)
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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QuietStorm    0

QuietStorm
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You are either a masochist or a skilled mechanic.



He is a masochist. Johnny is also into American sport bikes that vibrate and have "clunky clutches".



As a matter of fact I still own my 1977 Triumph TR-7; I blew out the alternator three years ago but skydiving and motorcycles consumed me so much; the TR-7 still sits. I'm looking to sell it to get my bikes paid off.

I like Erik Buell's designs and innovation; my Buells are the first motorcycles I ever bought and I have only been into motorcyles since early 2009; my wife and I now own 4 Buells between us; all purchased in the span of one year. So how did all of this happen? Because of wingsuiting and many of the things you have pointed out over many threads over the months. I have been monitoring the forum....but not posting or offering much.

Straigh up honest. My wife and I got sick and tired of being sick and tired of all the drama, bullshit, antagonism, hyper egos, conflicts, agendas; and us getting caught in the middle when all we wanted to do was just grow in our flying, be part of something bigger than ourselves, make new friendships, and enjoy a sense of common bond, commraderie, and "esprit de corps".

Wingsuiting just was not fun anymore and to us there is no reason to jump if you can't fly a wingsuit. We were very passionate about something that personally and spiritually meant a lot to us and got so turned off by an "organization" in combination of what we saw the "community?" doing to itself. So we simply took our big pile of money; said fuck it......and went somewhere else. We vote with our time and money.

It kind of sucks because there are people out there who we miss dearly and enjoy thier company; but at the same time we don't want to spend our hard earned money and have to "put up with" some people who have given us genuine reason not to like them as people or spend any time around them.

The skydiving / wingsuit "economy" / dropzones lost our support and participation by the tens of thousands of dollars.

That is the past; regurgitating the who did what and said what to whom only adds fuel to conflict and does not bring the peace and leadership our community so desperately needs right now.

My only motivation in saying all of this is to provide a real example of the level of damage we are doing to ourselves as a "community."

As Chuck Blue says...I am not going to "motherfucker" these individuals or thier organization in public on this forum; I am going to address them privately behind closed doors in person when the time is right.

We made many new friends in motorcycling who all had various "brands" of bikes without the antagonism, agenda, petty squabbles, competition, or somebody needing to be king of the hill all the freaking time no matter the topic or activity. And so more and more of our time and money simply followed the good times and better vibe we found with other folks on motorcycles.

So how about a good ol wingsuit........Wah, wah, waaaaaaahhhhh?

A lof of our disposable fun money went to skiing in Telluride as well. Many a wonderful day on the slopes with the joy that accompanies learning something new again and being proud of your accomplishment....and not to forget some unforgettable hot nights with the wife and one of her hot cougar friends.

Lets see.....spend lots of money to travel to a wingsuit event only to encounter drama, a particular brand of gear shoved in my face, and opinions I didn't ask for nor want to hear.......or rolling on Ecstasy naked in bed with the wife and one her hot girlfriends in Telluride.
Hmmmmm; not a hard choice to make.

I went from making 250 plus jumps a year in 2006, 2007 and 2008 and traveling by air to boogies to just making 50 jumps a year in 2009 , staying at my home DZ, and focusing on quality jumps with some other winguiters coming out of the ground at Eloy.

Hey....you have been elluding to Eloy in your other posts.

Things are really picking up big time for wingsuits at Eloy now that Scott Camos has retired from the Army, lives in Casa Grande, and can be at Eloy full time. Ash White left back in 2007 for personal reasons and I did the best I could to "hold down the fort" with no manufacturer support or help from anybody else while Scott was in the Green Berets probably blowing up and killing who knows what in the middle east. I am grateful my friend did not come home in a box with an American Flag on it.

From my experience and how I have been treated by a specific group of wingsuiters......it seems to me the "biggest mistake" I ever made was moving to Phoenix in 2004 to recover from a nasty divorce, start skydiving again after a 13 year marriage to a starter wife; meeting Scott Campos in October of 2005 and putting on a wingsuit. Flying a wingsuit brought me deep joy and enabled a lot of of internal healing I needed to do after some personally painful shit went down. I have had more than my share of drama in life.....I don't want any more; I can't take or tolerate any more drama. Life is too short. Many of us on this forum have buried our friends; people are important.

Perhaps my experience would have been different if I had chosen another region of the country to start over.

So if moving to Phoenix, finding Eloy, and earning the friendship of Scott Campos was the "biggest mistake" I made in wingsuiting......I will gladly repeat this "mistake" over and over and over again.

We all have lots of fun, all are welcome, and there is no drama with wingsuits at Eloy.

For example at the Christmas Boogie in 2009 we had Sir Richard and Monkey who fly Phoenix Fly teaching FFC to students in Birdman Suits provided by Scott Campos and my wife Anne took off her Tony Intro and offered it to another smaller frame gal so she could do her FFC course. All kinds of folks in all kinds of suits just flying together and having a good time with no drama or people talking trash. I made my 1,000th jump and started to feel good again about wingsuits.

Easter boogie 2010 was awesome as Zune brought his French S-Fly posse with him and I got to try out an S-Fly. I decided to stick with my Super Mach and stay currrent with my skills. Eike; the gentleman took off his Birdman suit and flew the S-Fly suits the whole boogie. The vibe was great and everyone had a good time.

So the wingsuit future at Eloy looks really bright! I am remotivated and got the "shot in the arm" that is long past overdue.....maybe I just needed the break and a change of pace and scenery .

Speaking of passionate wingsuiters that have gone cold, dark and quiet ; off the radar....are the Brothers Gray; Scott and Chris. I can't help but wonder if they share some of my thoughts?

Now I need to sell even more loading racks to pay off the bikes and start jumping more like I used to as things are getting much better! Seven Twin Otters and Five Skyvans...the potential of Eloy is HUGE!

Yeah, Buells are kind of "quirky" but they are unique. Knowing what I know now and given the opportunity to buy all over again; I would own Ducati and BMW. My wife has her eyes set on a Triumph Bonneville.

As for being a "masochist" ; I don't know....maybe its a Citadel thing; but I have always taken the road less traveled by....and that has made all the difference.

With warmest regards I wish you Blue Skies and Smooth Asphalt

I am yours truly;

The "Quiet Storm"

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Skyjester    0

Skyjester
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Yeah Bird- man was a big name..... Just a big name.

B|
Birdman is a big name. . .Vector Boy, you have not even a small name so far I know :ph34r: my last hope: sometimes people in real life not as low as at the net

Christian
don´t pester the jester . . or better: WHY SO SERIOUS ? ?

www.pralle-zeiten.de

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