skydiverkeith 1 #1 September 14, 2010 If I'm unconcious and tumbling toward the ground, I will exceed the 78mph of my Expert CYPRES easily, and it will fire. But if, for whatever reason, I'm still flying my suit and lose altitude awareness, The Expert CYPRES isn't going to fire, but the student model would since I won't be flying slower than 29mph. My question for the experienced ws pilots is this... Would it make more sense to convert my CYPRES to a student model? I fly a Spectre at barely over 1:1. Is it possible for me to scare the Student CYPRES with this canopy/wingload combination? Do any of you use a Student CYPRES for just this reason? Edit to add: The only advantage of the Expert I can think of is that were I to deploy late (say, around 1500ft) my CYPRESS is very unlikely to fire and result in a two out.Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #2 September 14, 2010 The simple answer is no, do not use student mode. I watched an individual use student mode after the mfgr and I both explained to him that it was not a good idea. The next jump he had a 2 out, one in front of another that he decided he would land. I would recommend that you open the manual and read what the differences are between student and Expert and ask yourself why it wouldn't be a good idea. If you are still unsure afterwards send me a PM or e-mail. Stay safe and good on you for asking this question instead of just doing it. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #3 September 14, 2010 Do you think that it's possible, or likely that they will introduce a WingSuit Mode at some stage? ... Would there be any benefit in doing so? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #4 September 14, 2010 Hey Scott, Maybe a good idea to add the Q and your reply to the FAQ. Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperGirl 0 #5 September 14, 2010 If you are so worried about losing altitude awareness, how about getting an audible? If you already have one, how about getting a second one as a backup? If you're flying all maxed out on a big suit and find yourself at speeds outside of cypres firing range, as long as you're on your belly, you should see the ground becoming bigger way before needing to pull. If you're flying mostly on your back, it's still a good idea to flip over to your belly before 5500 ft, because you might want to look for those tandem canopies and make sure you haven't drifted off your flight path so badly to be anywhere close to them... What are you more likely to do? Be so unaware of where you are in the sky that you forget to pull? or potentially making a turn with your canopy sharp enough that a student cypres would fire? (this could be a sharp turn to avoid traffic... last thing you want then is an extra canopy to deal with. people have died that way!) If you think you are at risk of losing altitude awareness that badly, then maybe you're not truly ready for that wingsuit yet. Not implying this is the case with you, but just saying in general... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #6 September 14, 2010 That's my view. If you're flying even half decently then you'd have to lose altitude awareness for a looong time to be worried about going through Cypres height.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #7 September 14, 2010 QuoteWhat are you more likely to do? Be so unaware of where you are in the sky that you forget to pull? or potentially making a turn with your canopy sharp enough that a student cypres would fire? Are you asking me, or is this a rhetorical question? If you're asking me, then I don't know. If its rhetorical, I need the answer. If I can make a Student CYPRES fire by doing a toggle or rear riser turn, then the rest is moot, as it is obviously a horrible idea. Is this possible with my setup?Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #8 September 14, 2010 QuoteIf you think you are at risk of losing altitude awareness that badly, then maybe you're not truly ready for that wingsuit yet. Not implying this is the case with you, but just saying in general... QuoteIf you're flying even half decently then you'd have to lose altitude awareness for a looong time to be worried about going through Cypres height. When I'm talking about altitude awareness, I'm not refering to inattention. I'm thinking more along the lines of a collision or medical issue, when you may still be flying the suit, but not all there mentaly. I responded to a pm with this anecdote, and I'll just copy and paste that part for you... On my 25th jump, I jumped the first canopy I packed myself. I had a very hard opening that left my brain in a fog. I was concious and flying my canopy, there was a flag, 5 wind blades, and a large wind sock in the landing area, along with every other skydiver landing into the wind as wind indicators for me. Thats around 15 different wind indicators all in the same landing area. Yet because of my hard opening, I could not figure out which way the wind was blowing or which direction I should land. I ended up landing downwind with 25 jumps in a 14mph wind. Imagine a collision putting me in the same mind state. After that landing experience, its easy to imagine that I could get hit by another ws pilot, be concious and flying my ws slow on auto pilot, but not be able to figure out my altitude (just like the wind direction)Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperGirl 0 #9 September 14, 2010 Quote Imagine a collision putting me in the same mind state. After that landing experience, its easy to imagine that I could get hit by another ws pilot, be concious and flying my ws slow on auto pilot, but not be able to figure out my altitude (just like the wind direction) do you think you would be so out of it that you wouldn't even hear the audibles then?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #10 September 14, 2010 QuoteIf I can make a Student CYPRES fire by doing a toggle or rear riser turn, then the rest is moot, as it is obviously a horrible idea. Is this possible with my setup? Yup, you said it. The reason AFAIK that the student cypress has that setting(29 mph ) is so that it fires even if a student is going through the firing altitude under a partial mal. This is the reason an expert cypress is used by almost all licensed skydivers. Now there is even a version for swoopers after Adrian's(RIP) accident. Adrian Nicholas was Patrick DG's jumping buddy and had a two out during a high speed landing with an expert cypress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #11 September 14, 2010 QuoteQuote Imagine a collision putting me in the same mind state. After that landing experience, its easy to imagine that I could get hit by another ws pilot, be concious and flying my ws slow on auto pilot, but not be able to figure out my altitude (just like the wind direction) do you think you would be so out of it that you wouldn't even hear the audibles then?? Honestly, I have no idea. I've never been in that situation. Its just hypothetical. But as long as I'm throwing out what ifs... Say you ARE unconcious because of a flat spin that has you falling at 63 mph... But seriously, could I intentionaly make a student CYPRES fire with my Spectre? If so, then none of the hypotheticals matter in the face of a dangerous two out...Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #12 September 14, 2010 QuoteQuoteIf I can make a Student CYPRES fire by doing a toggle or rear riser turn, then the rest is moot, as it is obviously a horrible idea. Is this possible with my setup? Yup, you said it. The reason AFAIK that the student cypress has that setting(29 mph ) is so that it fires even if a student is going through the firing altitude under a partial mal. This is the reason an expert cypress is used by almost all licensed skydivers. Now there is even a version for swoopers after Adrian's(RIP) accident. Adrian Nicholas was Patrick DG's jumping buddy and had a two out during a high speed landing with an expert cypress. So far two people AND the CYPRES manual have indicated that the Student will fire during a slow speed mal (at 1000ft according to the manual) Do we have any votes for a fire during a sharp turn on a Spectre at 1:1? BTW, its obviously a bad idea after considering the two out on a slow speed mal regardless, but I'm just curious how many people think I could cause it to fire with my setup...Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #13 September 14, 2010 Quote If I can make a Student CYPRES fire by doing a toggle or rear riser turn, then the rest is moot, as it is obviously a horrible idea. Is this possible with my setup? Yes, it's in theory possible. Either way, you have your answer. Student mode is for students. But being aware is significantly more reliable and practicle than audible or AAD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #14 September 14, 2010 There is video somewhere in youtube where a licensed jumper jumps a student rig with a 220 or 260 Navigator. He does a quick 180 followed with 360 and he gets a surprise canopy. I jump a 170 sqft Sabre2 and I've gotten, according to my alti-track, close to 45 MPH fall rates with it.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
copland007 0 #15 September 14, 2010 QuoteSay you ARE unconcious because of a flat spin that has you falling at 63 mph... Here's food for thought... this is my altitrack's record of my first flat spin (or unstable tumbling if you don't want to call it a flat spin): http://flyingchipmunk.smugmug.com/My-Jumps/Pics-of-me-skydiving/12374917_K7N3n#1007877082_6Sk8i Notice the speed at the peak of my flat spin... 134 mph If you were unconscious I think it would be very difficult to maintain slow enough flight to not trigger an AAD fire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #16 September 14, 2010 QuoteQuoteSay you ARE unconcious because of a flat spin that has you falling at 63 mph... Here's food for thought... this is my altitrack's record of my first flat spin (or unstable tumbling if you don't want to call it a flat spin): http://flyingchipmunk.smugmug.com/My-Jumps/Pics-of-me-skydiving/12374917_K7N3n#1007877082_6Sk8i Notice the speed at the peak of my flat spin... 134 mph If you were unconscious I think it would be very difficult to maintain slow enough flight to not trigger an AAD fire. Wow. I always assumed falling so flat in a wingsuit would have you going slow... What was your orientation?Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
copland007 0 #17 September 14, 2010 QuoteWow. I always assumed falling so flat in a wingsuit would have you going slow... What was your orientation? I was spinning on my back until I recovered, "Matt in a blender" :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #18 September 14, 2010 QuoteQuoteWow. I always assumed falling so flat in a wingsuit would have you going slow... What was your orientation? I was spinning on my back until I recovered, "Matt in a blender" :) That makes me feel a lot better about the Expert CYPRES. Thanks for posting the link.Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #19 September 15, 2010 QuoteDo we have any votes for a fire during a sharp turn on a Spectre at 1:1? Yes you can and will do if you do some spiraling under that canopy below 1500. Students do it with bigger canopies too. That is one of the reasons students have to be thought not to spiral below 1500 ft. BTW I doubt that you will fly in Max performance with your wingsuit while you are unconscious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkeith 1 #20 September 15, 2010 Quote BTW I doubt that you will fly in Max performance with your wingsuit while you are unconscious. LOL! I can't fly in max performance while I'm CONSCIOUS!Blue skies, Keith Medlock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vidiot 0 #21 September 15, 2010 Quote Do we have any votes for a fire during a sharp turn on a Spectre at 1:1? No problem at all. Managed to do it under a Navigator 260 loaded ~0.8:1. See my jump log entry here.My Logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
