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scottygofast

Large Wingsuits + Lower WS experience can = Very Nasty Flat Spin video

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He could go faster and more efficient at that angle by wearing a smaller wingsuit.


No he couldn't. The World Base Race have proven that a big and fast suit (Vampire) is the fastest suit even at steep angles. As the Vampire can also be flown with a better gliding ration than smaller suits it also gives more "reserve" (as mentioned in my post above).

I don't know how the TonySuit models compares, but I hope we'll see some of them at the World Base Race this summer. I for one would love to see them in action.

-Jo Henrik

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Incorrect 'balling up' can create equall amounts of added spin/instability. As also appearant in this video.

It almost looks like arching is what gets him out of it finaly, as opposed to the partial balling up..



Yes, the one time I got in a spin [testing back fly somth] my first attempt did nothing till I just fliped back face to earth and it stopped,
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

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And why is BASE "TRUE wingsuit flight"?



In BASE people push the performance to the max to survive, pushing performance to the max shows what you're truely capable of and what the technology is capable of..

In skydiving, mostly I see "fl0cking" which is not flying, but more so crappy wannabe "flying" with some material in between your legs and arms.

"If skydiving, don’t do too much wingsuit flocking. At least, don’t get too used to it. Flocking might be fun, but it is not wingsuit “flying”. Spend more time hunting clouds and racing with other experienced flyers instead." Jokke Sommer

Attached pictures speak for themselves..


You cant take a pic of someone that looks like hes slowing down and say thats what flocking is,
hes doing relative work, that involves a mirard of possitions, that in itself is an art, the dude in that pic I know also likes to fly 6 mile cross countrys, and for that matter, Ive seen video of dudes flying past that road, for the most part they look like they have a glide ratio of 1.5 as there diving down to meet the target.
this argument is silly,
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

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If you know the community of "flocker" in the states and internationally you find that the percentage of "flockers" that are also accomplished wingsuit base jumpers is pretty high. I feel that there are important skills that are acquired doing both. A well rounded wingsuit pilot should be able to fly in any situation. I would be surprised to hear of many wingsuit base jumpers, who are still alive, that have gone out and flown in proximity to any big wall without having the experience of controlling their suit, in flight, in proximity to another wingsuiter. Flocking, however boring it looks, is a challenge of ones wingsuit flying skill. Adjusting to fall rates, forward speeds, proximity to other wingsuiters is what fine tunes that skill set to become a wingsuit base jumper, or as you stated, start flying for real and not just falling with fabric between our arms and legs.

But hey, wingsuit base looks pretty easy on Youtube- I think wingsuit first jump courses should be modified into first wingsuit base courses :P

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I would be surprised to hear of many wingsuit BASE jumpers, who are still alive, that have gone out and flown in proximity to any big wall without having the experience of controlling their suit, in flight, in proximity to another wingsuiter. Flocking, however boring it looks, is a challenge of ones wingsuit flying skill. Adjusting to fall rates, forward speeds, proximity to other wingsuiters is what fine tunes that skill set to become a wingsuit BASE jumper,



I'm not sure it's really that relevant, except in that it's another jumps worth of wingsuit experience. Granted, I can't go and unlearn the flocking I've done and then see if it makes any difference next to a cliff but they really are completely different forms of flying. Flocking is (more often than not) about reducing your energy, BASE flight is about maximising it. Buzzing canopies and chasing clouds is probably much more useful than the average flocking dive, IMO.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I think the general thing is the skills to controll your position, and steer your body through the air.

And be it flocking, basejumping or doing solo's buzzing clouds. In the end, all of them (in different ways) teach you about navigating your body through the air. Some diciplines maybe more (or different) than others maybe, but advances in skill either way..

Dont bash one, because you dont like or do the other.
It IS possible to do one or two, and also like the third one...even though its not your game.

That aside...choose the right tool for the right job. I do see a lot of flocking where people are flying suits capable of double or triple the performance they are using.

And though the suit itself may be great. It makes you a lazy flyer, instead of a good one. I severly enjoy my Stealth2 for long freefalls, slow canopy flybys and camerawork (for which its awesome). But flying it in flocks, and not even using 50% of the wing to be a lazy ass, hanging in my comfort blanket/hammock in a flock...it teaches me nothing. Flying a smaller and more agile suit for aerobatics and flocks teaches me much, much more.

Its easy to be a prick, and point at pictures (out of context even maybe) and show everyone how awesome X is flying, and how horrid Y is flying.
But Id be much more interested in seeing some more productive talk on the subject. Instead of the childish schoolboy 'point and laugh' (often without an actual reason to laugh).
And thats without even going into the 'lead by example' thing...as there some of the most avid critics on here, still have A LOT of potential work to do...dont just talk the talk..but also walk the walk...

Wingsuit flying experience doesnt come from your post count on this dz.com forum. And once you get into it, you'll learn that superiour glide or long freefall times ISNT always the objective. And that of course that doesnt mean, we shouldnt try and gently urge people to fly better..and progress. But the tone in which some people here comment, has little to do with progression of skill, and the dicipline/sport in general. It the internet equivalent of the old lady in the corner house, bitching about every car that passes. Every person that walks by. And every bit of sunshine or rain that she sees.

And nobody likes visiting that nagging grandma....
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Dont bash one, because you dont like or do the other.
It IS possible to do one or two, and also like the third one...even though its not your game.

That aside...choose the right tool for the right job.



I agree.. and will add the thought that many people should learn to fly the suit you have better... You might be amazed at what different suits can do if you learn to fly them better...

If you do that you might find there is a good deep down feeling you get from smoking people when your flying what they look at as an infer-er or more "new technology" challenged suit... :o;)

Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Awesome video Scotty! Love the cloud surf part amd really miss that so thanks.

Happy Dad's day too.. I'm getting a total hip replacement in July---and hoping to be back in your films later this year after ANOTHER re-hab period. UGH ! Rehab AGAIN ! ( worse than spins )
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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Ive seen video of dudes flying past that road, for the most part they look like they have a glide ratio of 1.5 as there diving down to meet the target.
this argument is silly,


The argument is not silly. I'm not saying that Sangi knows why, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

There are big differences in bending your legs and falling at a ratio of 1.5 and tilting your arms back and dive at a ratio of 1.5. By diving you have more speed and reserve to ascend from your original plying path. If a jet fighter wants to fly at 1.5 he can either turn off his engine and fall in the angle he wants or he can tilt his nose down and keep on going downwards in full speed. The last option is definitely the best flying which causes lowest chance of stall and more outs.
You might not be all that experienced with wingsuit base, but as a respected wingsuit manufacturer you should be careful when discussing there issues as several people are dying every year because they don't get the difference. Please don't mislead the wannabe wingsuit base jumpers.

-Jo Henrik

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There are big differences in bending your legs and falling at a ratio of 1.5 and tilting your arms back and dive at a ratio of 1.5. By diving you have more speed and reserve to ascend from your original plying path. If a jet fighter wants to fly at 1.5 he can either turn off his engine and fall in the angle he wants or he can tilt his nose down and keep on going downwards in full speed. The last option is definitely the best flying which causes lowest chance of stall and more outs.
You might not be all that experienced with wingsuit base, but as a respected wingsuit manufacturer you should be careful when discussing there issues as several people are dying every year because they don't get the difference. Please don't mislead the wannabe wingsuit base jumpers.



I hope this does not come as a surprise, but there is a gigantic overlap between all freefall disciplines. Be it vertical, flat, or glide... be it from a plane, building, or earth... all cases share one common denominator: a human being flying his body in a way that God/Allah/FSM never intended.

I was with Tony on what I believe to be one of his first ever wingsuit flights in June of 2006. On the plane he looked at me and said "How do I go forward? How do I go up? How do I go down?" At the time, he was in a smallish suit he eventually called the Eagle, I believe. I thought to myself, "oh boy, this is going to be a fun jump." Well, what actually happened, was Tony left me IN THE DUST. I was wearing a Birdman S3, one of the top performing suits at the time, and I had about 400 wingsuit flights, I think. It turns out that somebody with 8000 skydives can fly a wingsuit even if he doesn't know it.

I may have never stepped off of an object, but of course I can understand that yes, there is a difference between 1.5GR with legs bent and arms cupped, and 1.5GR with legs extended and arms swept. The difference is absolute speed and power (flare) available. I've been at 35mph fallrate for over 1 minute, and I've been at 220mph fallrate (faster than I know how to fall without a WS) for over 10 seconds.

The bottom line here is that NEITHER of those 1.5GR positions can be accurately called "max performance." Both are compensating some degree of performance for some certain goal. Please don't mislead. Max performance sacrifices NOTHING.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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It turns out that somebody with 8000 skydives can fly a wingsuit even if he doesn't know it.


I have no doubt that Tony is an excellent skydiver and wingsuit flyer. He gave me a tour of his factory 6-7 years ago so i also know he is a nice guy. But the way Tony writes it make it sound like bending the legs while flying over the road is not needed as it's easy to fly 1.5GR. Having lots of wingsuit skydiving experience does not necessarily make you a good wingsuit base jumper. People with thousands of jumps have died while wingsuit base jumping because they didn't know the basics of proximity flying.

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The bottom line here is that NEITHER of those 1.5GR positions can be accurately called "max performance."


Again it all comes down to what you refer to as "max performance". Are we talking about max performance to get longest freefall, longest distance flown or fastest speed horizontally? I would say that the way the base jumper is flying is close to max performance in horizontal speed.

-Jo Henrik

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But it takes equal (if not greater) skill to put an entire planeload of wingsuit pilots in a formation, head-to-foot, and have them fly it spot-on.



Something that the heroes of this forum lack (refer to inability to stay in your established grid on the 71 way world "record" fl0ck).


So let me get this straight, this Sangi fool is giving shit to the 71 world record holders even though he has never even flown a wingsuit??
Am i missing something or is this Sangi the biggest dick head on this site ??

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But it takes equal (if not greater) skill to put an entire planeload of wingsuit pilots in a formation, head-to-foot, and have them fly it spot-on.



Something that the heroes of this forum lack (refer to inability to stay in your established grid on the 71 way world "record" fl0ck).


So let me get this straight, this Sangi fool is giving shit to the 71 world record holders even though he has never even flown a wingsuit??
Am i missing something or is this Sangi the biggest dick head on this site ??

Do _not_ feed the troll. B|

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The bottom line here is that NEITHER of those 1.5GR positions can be accurately called "max performance." Both are compensating some degree of performance for some certain goal. Please don't mislead. Max performance sacrifices NOTHING.



Only if you define 'max performance' as GR alone.

Otherwise, you're always compromising some aspect of the suits capability - even when you're going as far or as fast or falling as slowly as you can.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Otherwise, you're always compromising some aspect of the suits capability - even when you're going as far or as fast or falling as slowly as you can.



Unrelated,
But in the GPS based competitions, often the best 'hangtime' scores where the result of the distance rounds...so not sure how far apart these two are..,
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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So let me get this straight, this Sangi fool is giving shit to the 71 world record holders even though he has never even flown a wingsuit?? Am i missing something or is this Sangi the biggest dick head on this site ??



As a matter of fact, yes, you are missing something. I know Sangi personally and he's actually a really nice guy. The reason that he post the posts that he posts (quite negatively loaded usually) is because when he was new to this site, and asked questions, he always got smartass remarks from the ''oh-so-experienced" skygods who dissed him alot. I guess that's why he now has a more 'bitter' approach to the posts he makes. It's because all the reply's that Sangi got in the past from posters that are plain rude, that he is becoming rude as well. I'd say, people reap what they sow. I find it realy sad to have to discuss about this stuff, and while you might think that Sangi is the biggest dickhead on this site, it is actually this very site and some of the posters on here that made him this way! So I don't think those guys should be bitching about the way Sangi acts on these forums now. Always when he asked a skydive related question he got bullshit remarks, never a straight answer to his question... And that's what I kinda have a problem with. How the hell are you gonna learn stuff here if half of the time people answer like they know best, you know nothing, and communicate that in a patronizing way.

Btw: I thought personal attacks like "Sangi is the biggest idiot on this site" were not allowed ... Great moderating guys...
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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The reason that he post the posts that he posts (quite negatively loaded usually) is because when he was new to this site, and asked questions, he always got smartass remarks



First: When you ask questions like "how do you deploy from full flight without blowing up" people are gonna make smart remarks, and it's nothing to do with this site. Ask those kind of questions face to face and people are going to take the piss.

Second: He didn't just ask questions, he gave advice. Wrong advice based on misunderstood second hand information. Constantly. That pisses people off.

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I find it realy sad to have to discuss about this stuff, and while you might think that Sangi is the biggest dickhead on this site, it is actually this very site and some of the posters on here that made him this way!



This site is the same for everyone, yet there's only one Sangi. Strange.

He could have accepted that he said some stupid stuff early on in his posting here, put it behind him, started talking sensibly and people would have mostly forgotten his earlier posts. Instead he's decided to keep posting stupid stuff on purpose to try and annoy people as some sort of childish revenge. And so people are going to keep being dicks right back at him.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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First: When you ask questions like "how do you deploy from full flight without blowing up" people are gonna make smart remarks, and it's nothing to do with this site. Ask those kind of questions face to face and people are going to take the piss.



That was at a time when Sangi knew next to nothing about BASE and just started to get interested in it. What prompted that question why the suits didn't "blow up" is because he presumed that base openings are such mega slammers that this might be a damaging factor to a wingsuit.

(Edit to add: Sangi meant the following: "I just meant how can the bodies withstand the severe opening shock of the canopy opening")

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Second: He didn't just ask questions, he gave advice. Wrong advice based on misunderstood second hand information. Constantly. That pisses people off.



Giving advice with zero experience is just plain wrong, I definitely agree with you on that one!

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This site is the same for everyone, yet there's only one Sangi. Strange.



What is strange about that? There is only one elias123 as well... If your talking about other people who act like Sangi, then I presume that those guys just got so fed up with bullshit condesending remarks here that they just left this site for what it is and actually went to do some real skydiving!

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He could have accepted that he said some stupid stuff early on in his posting here, put it behind him, started talking sensibly and people would have mostly forgotten his earlier posts. Instead he's decided to keep posting stupid stuff on purpose to try and annoy people as some sort of childish revenge. And so people are going to keep being dicks right back at him."



That I do understand, and is something only Sangi himself can resolve, if he wants to.
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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I was/am one of those "skygods" that called sangi out on some of the misinformation he was spewing. Giving an opinion on something he has either no or very limited experience is the problem. The fact that he reacts in a negative way to being told he was flat out wrong is his issue. Not this website. My responses are direct, but not rude. Some members here don't sugar coat their opinions. Giving ill informed opinions that can hurt someone is not taken lightly. But saying it is the fault of the "skygods" that he was pushed to make the posts that he does seams a bit offbase. He does it because he likes the responses. The only reason I continue to respond and feed his trolling is that some other new visitor to the site won't actually listen to, or at least will question, the drivel that he writes.

I would have no problem hoisting a frosty beverage and talking to him face to face. He might realize that those he tags with the name of skygod is as far from the truth as you believe he is that idiot.

Or maybe sangi and those other posters are both right after all. I am a SKYGOD and he is that IDIOT.

Only time will tell. I have to admit, me being considered a skygod makes me chuckle.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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Well, I do have a golden monkey idol that we've been burning incense at the feet of and leaving offerings to...

Was I doing wrong?
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Hell, we can't even agree upon what a wingsuit *IS*, let alone what consititutes flying one at "max performance". Strap a GPS to a flier and you'll STILL wind up in a debate over which metric most accurately reflects flight performance. Is it distance covered? Horizontal speed? Vertical speed? Glide ratio? Flight time? None of the above because we got sidetracked by a puffy?

I think this is what Tony was referring to when he said the whole argument is silly. It's silly because it's an argument over something completely subjective.

[how the hell Scotty's original topic took a turn in this direction I have no idea, but I'll happily ride the ADD tangent train]

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