Large Wingsuits + Lower WS experience can = Very Nasty Flat Spin video

[scottygofast 0]

The jumper in the video, had around 200 total WS jumps, and im guessing between 500-800 total jumps. He was flying a new tony X-wing on this jump, and believe he had a number of jumps on a P2 beforehand. In my opinion, This jumper did allow this spin to continue for quite some time, however.... I think he did the right thing... I believe that if the individual had ever felt like he was going to red/black out, he would have deployed his main. Had his ditter gone off, he would have deployed his main. Since he never felt like he got to that point, he was fighting the spin the entire time. The centerfugal force is what kept him from being able to get his knees to his chest, but he was able to keep his feet together. I can honestly say that had it been me in his shoes, I likely would have rode it as long as he did. I wouldn't recommend to everyone to approach this problem in this way, however, I do know that the individual has a much higher awareness of G-LOC and training that most of us, and in his situation, I believe he acted correctly.

My intention with this post is to merely allow us all to see just how much RESPECT we all must have for these suits. The bigger they are, the faster you spin. Everyone wants one of these super high performance suits because everyone wants the best, right? At what point does a wingsuiter have enough experience to be prepared to handle something like this? Im really not for more regulation, but I really would like to see a change in mentality in our community. I still hear stories of guys buying suits, putting em on, and going and doing their first jump in a wingsuit.. New jumpers that just think theyre so good that they dont need 200 jumps.... they can do it now.

We are all in a place in life where every human dreams to be from the time they are children.. We look at big puffy clouds with a zeal and passion that is unknown to most of the rest of the world; eveyone is seeing this and wanting to be a part of it. We have seen exponential growth over the last couple years, and we can expect that trend to continue, unless.... We continue to allow ourselves to get too big for our britches and put too much piane in the hands of the flight students. The FAA is watching us. Let us have a couple of people go in in a flat spin, and see how much longer we are even allowed to fly wingsuits in the US. Self regulation is the only way for us to continue down the path that we are all so passionate about. let us not forget the mistakes of the past.

pchapman~

in regards to the spin itself, it was obviously nasty. At one point, he was spinning in all three axises, and in 2 axises thru most of the spin. you can actually see in the begining of the spin his leg wing tilted in one direction, and arm wings slightly in the opposite. Anyone know what a propeller blade looks like? Flat spin is just the easiest name for it, and it can be the result of various incidents..


Scotty

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[lurch 0]

Yo.
Just watched the vid.
Found myself going WHOOOOA!
That was one...fast...spin. Maybe the fastest I've ever seen. Props to the guy for getting out of it. (Pun intended
Second set of thoughts about remainder of video...
Scotty that was some of the most inspiring cloudsurf video I've ever seen. I was bouncing up and down, got all excited going Yeeeaaah! Woot!

I'm a cloudsurf connoiseur and that was as fine of a puffy as can be found anywhere. 100% perfect. I would have been jumping up and down screaming for a half hour after surfing that.

THAT, is why I fly wingsuits. Just watching that put me in an incredibly good mood.

Awesome video, Scotty. 2 thumbs up and a big grin. -B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Sangi 0]

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The bigger they are, the faster you spin. Everyone wants one of these super high performance suits because everyone wants the best, right?

No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind..

There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight).

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[skydiverkeith 1]

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The bigger they are, the faster you spin. Everyone wants one of these super high performance suits because everyone wants the best, right?

No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind..

There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight).

Uh-oh, time to stir shit up!

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[DSE 3]

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No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind..

There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight).

Which wingsuit are you flying? How many jumps do you have on it?

[scottygofast 0]

Sangi~

You may very well be correct, i can only speak to my experience and that is over here in the states, i have yet to make it over to play with cliffs yet, but its coming. I agree, this is a very american issue... I wish i didnt agree, but i must.

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[Tony-tonysuits 0]

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The bigger they are, the faster you spin. Everyone wants one of these super high performance suits because everyone wants the best, right?

No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind..

There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight).

Actuly bigger suits do get better glide ratio and the whole world is "going over" base and skydiving if glide ratio is what your after,

ref that spin, its why we recomend not to back fly your suit till you know the suit, he has been jumping that suit for a couple of months but maybe thats not long enough. and yes, learn to backfly with a small suit first.

Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

[mr_prick 0]

i can totally relate.
the x-wing was by far the most difficult suit to fly for me so far. and the highest performing.
i have jumped most wingsuits, also the stealth and have a lot of wingsuit jumps but the x-wing was the first one to send me spinning...also on the first backflying attempts.not as long or as violent as in the video but still. up till then i was thinking flatspins are a myth.

oh and for the record: i like the fastes, biggest, baddest, most radical toys i can find in anything, because riding hard makes you feel special!
and i'm not american.

[BenediktDE 2]

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Everyone wants one of these super high performance suits because everyone wants the best, right?

What I notice more and more is that many intermediate pilots tend to think so. When I look at highly experienced pilots I see a trend to downsize to fast and agile suits again.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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Ball up now, ball the f@%@#% up, make a tiny tight #$^# cannon ball.

Totes. Arch for instability, but ball for a spin. The ball kills the rotation speed before it gets out of hand, whereas an uneven arch can induce a pinwheel effect and make it much worse.

[mccordia 73]

Incorrect 'balling up' can create equall amounts of added spin/instability. As also appearant in this video.

It almost looks like arching is what gets him out of it finaly, as opposed to the partial balling up..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

FWIW, (IMO) I don't think this is a manufacturer issue, a suit issue, or even a "current skills" issue.
Bad juju happens sometimes. Not correcting for it quickly enough makes it worse but it can happen to anyone at one level or another.
IMO, manufacturers should quit the "sell any suit to anyone regardless of jump history" mentality, that's simply f**ked up.

Going from a P2 to attempting backflying on a mega-wing in a jump or three isn't terribly smart either.
But...this can happen on any suit, to anyone.
Very glad to see M. is OK, hopefully this will serve as a caution sign for those wanting to make big leaps in upsizing.

[pms07 3]

No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind..

There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight).

[Sangi 0]

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And why is BASE "TRUE wingsuit flight"?

In BASE people push the performance to the max to survive, pushing performance to the max shows what you're truely capable of and what the technology is capable of..

In skydiving, mostly I see "fl0cking" which is not flying, but more so crappy wannabe "flying" with some material in between your legs and arms.

"If skydiving, don’t do too much wingsuit flocking. At least, don’t get too used to it. Flocking might be fun, but it is not wingsuit “flying”. Spend more time hunting clouds and racing with other experienced flyers instead." Jokke Sommer

Attached pictures speak for themselves..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[The111 0]

The icing on the cake here is that you think somebody with his arms swept behind his back is at "max performance."

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mrbiceps 0]

Gees i look forward to your posts sangi, best laugh i have ever had.
Come back in another 3 years when u have actually flown a few wingsuits and actually done some flocking

[Sangi 0]

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done some flocking

Hope I'll never have to do that crap.

At least, not the type of fl0cking in the attached picture above..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[johenrik 0]

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The icing on the cake here is that you think somebody with his arms swept behind his back is at "max performance."

It all depends on what you are referring to with "max performance". He is not having the best gliding rate, but he is going as fast and efficient as he can in that angle (and any other angle would be either deadly or boring in that spot). By pulling his arms back he will also have more power to change his angle if needed to outfly obstacles. I will say that "max performance" is correct.

-Jo Henrik

[Skwrl 56]

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Hope I'll never have to do that crap.

Well, the good news is that, if your jump numbers are correct (you've done like two jumps in the last two years, right?), you'll never have to worry about that problem.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[The111 0]

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It all depends on what you are referring to with "max performance". He is not having the best gliding rate, but he is going as fast and efficient as he can in that angle (and any other angle would be either deadly or boring in that spot). By pulling his arms back he will also have more power to change his angle if needed to outfly obstacles. I will say that "max performance" is correct.

He could go faster and more efficient at that angle by wearing a smaller wingsuit.

You could also say that the flocker with bent legs in the other photo is at "max performance" as any other angle or speed would result in him not flying next to his partner (which was his entire goal in that skydive).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Butters 0]

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In BASE people push the performance to the max to survive ...

You must have missed this part ...

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"Reserve: Same stuff I mentioned before, but can never be mentioned enough! ALWAYS fly with reserve, the more the better!" Jokke Sommer

... if you have reserve than you aren't pushing the performance to the max.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[base851 0]

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In BASE people push the performance to the max to survive, pushing performance to the max shows what you're truely capable of and what the technology is capable of...

This attitude reminds me of a line from Outlaw Josey Wales...

"Dyin' ain't much of a way to make a livin', boy."

[LloydDobbler 2]

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And why is BASE "TRUE wingsuit flight"?

In BASE people push the performance to the max to survive, pushing performance to the max shows what you're truely capable of and what the technology is capable of..

In skydiving, mostly I see "fl0cking" which is not flying, but more so crappy wannabe "flying" with some material in between your legs and arms.

"If skydiving, don’t do too much wingsuit flocking. At least, don’t get too used to it. Flocking might be fun, but it is not wingsuit “flying”. Spend more time hunting clouds and racing with other experienced flyers instead." Jokke Sommer

Attached pictures speak for themselves..

...and speed skydiving is the only way to go, too, right?

FS, freefly, and VFS are certainly not "pushing the performance to the max," and are therefore crappy "wannabe skydiving." The only way to *truly* skydive is to slide into a latex suit and scream towards the earth.

(...yeah, I think that sort of logic sounds ridiculous, too.)

As Matt pointed out, it's all about objectives. I certainly doubt that a flock of sparrows flying in tight formation spends a lot of time worrying about whether they're truly "flying." Or that a lone crow flying through the air is chuckling to himself about how those sparrows aren't 'maxing it out.'

It certainly takes skill to achieve maximum glide out of a wingsuit. But it takes equal (if not greater) skill to put an entire planeload of wingsuit pilots in a formation, head-to-foot, and have them fly it spot-on.

If you ever get to the point where you try wingsuiting, you might get it.

Side note - where's Yuri at, anyway?

Signatures are the new black.

[Sangi 0]

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But it takes equal (if not greater) skill to put an entire planeload of wingsuit pilots in a formation, head-to-foot, and have them fly it spot-on.

Something that the heroes of this forum lack (refer to inability to stay in your established grid on the 71 way world "record" fl0ck).

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Side note - where's Yuri at, anyway?

He's banned from this forum by the almighty dorkzone "heroes".

Edit: Attachment.

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[johenrik 0]

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"Reserve: Same stuff I mentioned before, but can never be mentioned enough! ALWAYS fly with reserve, the more the better!" Jokke Sommer

... if you have reserve than you aren't pushing the performance to the max.

When base jumpers are talking about flying with reserve then we aren't talking about flying slow, we are talking about flying steep. You should always fly very steep and with lots of speed. This way you have a possibility to flatten out and get a better flight ratio, i.e. a reserve, to outfly ledges you didn't see. The Base Fatality List is full of people who didn't understand this.

-Jo Henrik