Large Wingsuits + Lower WS experience can = Very Nasty Flat Spin video

[scottygofast 0]

Hey there all...

Had a couple of jumps this weekend at skydive city and wanted to share a video and start a conversation. I have my own thoughts but I wanted to get a group consensus of what everyone else thought. The performance being achieved in todays newer suits is just plain unreal. We have seen a progression in technology and ability in our discipline through gear and experience over the last 5 years. It's popularity has increased exponentially. The ability of the pilot to fly the suit, and the suit not fly the pilot, is now becoming more of a problem. My only desire in this is to start a discussion, about what kind of experience should be expected to upgrade to a ultra-high performance wingsuit? Everyone wants one... I know a few people who went out and bought a Ducati as their first motorcycle. I guess that is one analogy that many of us can relate to. just wanted to know everyone's thoughts, and check out the video... Some nice cloud swoopage at the end too.. Happy Dads day to all you out there affected by the release of your seed. ;)

Scotty
http://vimeo.com/12726853

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[mccordia 73]

Thats a lot of time spent strugling with a spinning wingsuit.
Much like canopy emergencies, Id personaly go through the emergency procedures for spins (1. arch, 2. ball, 3. pull) much quicker. Rather a main with 20 twists at 9000 ft, than the same ball of crap at 2k or lower.

And thats not even thinking about a black-out. Thats some mighty fast spinning! Did this jumper have an AAD?
If not, even more reasons to go through the emergency procedures in quick succession.

Last, on any kind of backflying, barrelroll or other aerobatics action, I always would recommend learning it on a smaller suit first.

Akin to learning to do donuts in a small and agile car, instead of taking the semi-truck out on the parking-lot and giving it a go..

Glad to see this one come out okay, and applaud you for posting it!

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[sundevil777 93]

I have no wingsuit experience (yet). Did the guy have trouble because it can be difficult to transition from backflying? Or is it that done the wrong way it can go really bad?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I have no wingsuit experience (yet). Did the guy have trouble because it can be difficult to transition from backflying? Or is it that done the wrong way it can go really bad?

This video explains (in part) the reason for spins like these.

With wingsuits, upsizing (like downsizing with canopies) means bigger moves may result in extreme spins, and turns. Much like subtle input in a harnas can steer a small canopy.

You're flying your body like on a normal skydive, but all the control surfaces (and the effects they have) are muliplied exponentialy.

This wingsuit size and model are (or should be) linked to experience levels.
Similar to a 200 jump wonder not flying a Xoas 88 sq/ft canopy at that experience level.

Ideas on what 'experienced' means, often seem to vary per jumper

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[yeyo 1]

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.... My only desire in this is to start a discussion, about what kind of experience should be expected to upgrade to a ultra-high performance wingsuit?

I've shared my thoughts about this matter before, more specifically about the recommendations on the Tony Wingsuits site. I think they are absurd.
Doing something 75 times doesnt makes you an expert in anything in life, not even at picking your nose.
But, I have a little more than 200 WS jumps and the guys that wrote that have 15x my experience. So probably they know something that I dont, or like I said before maybe Im a BiG PuuSSie.

Anyway, Im sure I can fly a SuperMegaMach-Bird 7.9, and Im sure I can land a Velo79. That doesnt makes it acceptable or wise.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[sdctlc 0]

If you don't like the "Tony" suggestions

0 - 5 Intro beginner wingsuit
5 - 25 T-bird intermediate wingsuit
25 - 50 R-bird advanced wingsuit
50 - 75 S-bird experienced wingsuit
75 + X-bird expert wingsuit

what about the Phoenix fly suggestions? http://www.phoenix-fly.com/articles%20stvari/wingsuit_selector.pdf

Ghost and Vampire line at 50 and the Stealth at 75 which is pretty comparable to the Tony line...

Seems to me the 2 have a similar "suggestion" for experience.

I completely agree that the Monster suits offer an entirely different dynamic to flying and will bite MUCH faster so the more experience that you have the better.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[yeyo 1]

Yeah...I haven't looked at the PF recommendations but now I see they are equally absurd.
And I'm not talking only about safety, I talk also about the learning curve. Doing 76 jumps on an Acro doesn't mean you are ready for the X-Bird or similar suit.
We should do 100+ jumps on a small suit and do everything with it, then 200 on a medium sized suit and again do it all on that one. Then move to an advanced suit until you get bored to death and so on. Do the progression like canopy downsizing. I think it will make you a better flier in the long run.
But that's my opinion, and what do I know?

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[Butters 0]

That wasn't back flying, that was back falling ... has the person done any back tracking or back flying in a smaller wingsuit? What is the point in getting a high performance anything if you don't have the skills to use it ...

PS: When I started motorcycling I bought a Kawasaki Ninja 250R.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[base689 0]

> I know a few people who went out and bought a Ducati as their first motorcycle
——————————————————————————————
The big advantage of motorcycle versus wingsuit is that if you buy a Ducati 999 as your first motorbike, you CAN go slowly.
Yes, if you turn the handle a bit too much, you're dead, but it is YOUR choice and nobody can compell you too accelerate too much in the beginnings.
Wingsuit: you CANNOT go slowly, once you donned a large wingsuit, there is only a limited range of speed at which you can fly it (I don't thing you buy a V2/V3 to fly at an arch, and even so, it is NOT so easy to keep an arch with those wingsuits).
Yes, I do agree that there must be a suitable progression when upsizing the performance of a wingsuit.

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[mccordia 73]

The PF website lists other jump recommendations for each suit (and has had these there for quite some time already) than the outdated PDF you guys are refering to.

For both Stealth2 and V3, a MINIMUM of 150 wingsuit jumps is recommended/advised.
Not 50 or 80 as stated above.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

what about the Phoenix fly suggestions? http://www.phoenix-fly.com/articles%20stvari/wingsuit_selector.pdf

I wouldn't encourage the "the other guys are doing it too, therefore we're fine" excuse

that pdf is old and desperately needs to be updated with new numbers... and the only reason it hasn't been updated yet is a new and improved website is coming up soon, which will contain all the correct information...
but check on the page for the actual suit, it's clearly written 150 jumps minimum for the stealth2
http://www.phoenix-fly.com/products/wingsuit_stealth2.htm

which IMHO is still a very bare minimum and just jump numbers are not the sole way of judging whether or not someone is ready to fly a particular wingsuit, pretty much the same way as 25 static line jumps don't make you an A-license skydiver... it's about what you do in those jumps that counts!

I'm curious how much experience the jumper in the video has backflying other suits. how much backflying done on a smallish wing like a tbird or phantom2, then how much backflying in something medium-sized like maybe an m-bird or ghost, any then backfly jumps in an sbird and so on... it is a progression. or, rather, it should be.
just like you don't downsize from a sabre 190 directly to a velo 96, you don't go from a tbird to an xbird.

[sdctlc 0]

Quote

The PF website lists other jump recommendations for each suit (and has had these there for quite some time already) than the outdated PDF you guys are refering to.

For both Stealth2 and V3, a MINIMUM of 150 wingsuit jumps is recommended/advised.
Not 50 or 80 as stated above.

Jarno,

Funny, I took that "outdated" link directly from the top of the PF products page and the chart noted from that link says Min of 75 for the stealth. It is not like I made the numbers up or pulled up a old link....

Also I just looked and the 150 number is noted on the Stealth 2 page if you click on the "more" link. Here is a copy and past from the V3 "more" page link 1 min ago:

"Due to the large wing surface area the Vampire 3 is not suitable for low experience pilots. We recommend a MINIMUM of 50 wingsuit jumps before trying the Vampire. "

Scott

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[phoenixlpr 0]

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The PF website lists other jump recommendations for each suit (and has had these there for quite some time already) than the outdated PDF you guys are refering to.

Outdated because you think so? It is still there? Is it time for house keeping?

[sdctlc 0]

Quote

I wouldn't encourage the "the other guys are doing it too, therefore we're fine" excuse

that pdf is old and desperately needs to be updated with new numbers... and the only reason it hasn't been updated yet is a new and improved website is coming up soon, which will contain all the correct information...
but check on the page for the actual suit, it's clearly written 150 jumps minimum for the stealth2


which IMHO is still a very bare minimum and just jump numbers are not the sole way of judging whether or not someone is ready to fly a particular wingsuit, pretty much the same way as 25 static line jumps don't make you an A-license skydiver... it's about what you do in those jumps that counts!

My post was in no way an excuse for one manufacturer or another but a response to Yeyo about his statement on "Tony numbers" being aggressive in terms of experience. I happen to agree that the more jumps the better and a progression makes sense. Showing the "current" web published PF chart just shows basically the same thing from a different manufacturer and not just exclusive to Tony, which was my point...

If the PF site and information is outdated and a new site is coming how am I as an average consumer going to know that. I can only see what a manufacturer has on the currently accessible web page.

Scott

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[SuperGirl 0]

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My post was in no way an excuse for one manufacturer or another but a response to Yeyo about his statement on "Tony numbers" being aggressive in terms of experience.

I know... and my post wasn't so much directed at you... it was just a more general kinda response that we gotta be careful and realize that just because something comes in a majority doesn't necessarily make it the right thing...

Quote

If the PF site and information is outdated and a new site is coming how am I as an average consumer going to know that. I can only see what a manufacturer has on the currently accessible web page.

agreed. I look forward to seeing updated info on there as much as anyone else...
it's just that I would've cut tony a lot more slack when he still had the old rusty website, but was hoping to see bigger numbers there when the new one was launched...

[verticalflyer 11]

Alas there are very few ways of changing the policy on wingsuit experience prior to flying the big wings. So education through the community is key so I welcome this post.

Even if the limits were trippled people would still buy the suits, very hard for manufacturers to verify. So existing birds need to encourage healthy progression that suits experience level not the latest shiny toy simply because its there.

When I first flew the GS1 in 2005 it was a monster; 1st suit I ever flew with wings from wrist to ankle and its a whole new flight input.

Previously started on Classic in 2001 200 jumps
Skyflyer 1 300 jumps
Vampire V1 200 jumps
Jii Wings GS1 200 jumps
New toy very soon

If you rush through the suits you miss the opportunity to firstly learn the wing, like a pilot you dont fly a cessna 180 and then jump in a Beech 99.

To understand effects from body position deep spots, flat turns, back flying aerobatics etc etc takes a long time and some weird visuals along the way.

I'd far rather a learning curve over a long period of time as to arriving at school day one and sitting my degree at the end of the week.

Enjoy the journey its a lot of fun and you can fly the wings a lot better and dial them in once you have flown lots of different ones far more effectively as you feel the wing and start to recognise the nuisances that allow its real flight control and performance.

We are in a reverse age likely canopis from late 80-90's must go smaller now its must go bigger and as XRW has shown we are now meeting in the middle.

Sp please dont rush it and if your backflying in big suits please be symetrical, though the video was nice.

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[VectorBoy 0]

Why is an unstable downward auger to a side spin, the kind to avoid while doing tandems, referred to as a WS flat spin....... still?

[base851 0]

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Why is an unstable downward auger to a side spin, the kind to avoid while doing tandems, referred to as a WS flat spin....... still?

Actually, it looked more like an intended triple gainer with a 1-1/2 twist into a double-forward pike but he screwed it up and just wound up with a 57-3/4 twist with a 24-3/8 front somersault.

[base851 0]

Nice vid Scotty. And yes, very sweet puffy surfage.

I'm curious. What's the background of the jumper? What was he flying and how many wingsuit jumps did he have at that point? Do you happen to know what he had been flying prior to that suit?

[sinjin 0]

+1 for suggesting immediate ep's way, way earlier in this situation !!! I would even go further and say before you decide to jump a suit like this be mentally prepared to ball up in SECONDS after losing control of a suit of this size.

Ball up now, ball the f@%@#% up, make a tiny tight #$^# cannon ball. TRY lick your balls.

what ever it takes for you to realize that death (mid air blackout and praying for a cypress save) is imminent if you try to arch for 10-20 seconds and fight a spin like this. Anyone learning to fly a wingsuit or going up in wingsuit size should watch this video and the red-eye spinner posted earlier in the year. thanks for posting the video scotty, and hope it is a life saver to someone.

dont let life pass you by

[pchapman 261]

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Why is an unstable downward auger to a side spin, the kind to avoid while doing tandems, referred to as a WS flat spin....... still?

Yeah, what's the answer on that? Where do I go to find definitions of such terminology?

That's an honest question because I don't do a lot of wingsuiting.

(Maybe there are no good answers. For example, for canopy flight, we don't have unambiguous terms or definitions for canopy recovery arcs.)

[VectorBoy 0]

Ball up now, ball the f@%@#% up, make a tiny tight #$^# cannon ball. TRY lick your balls.

what ever it takes for you to realize that death (mid air blackout and praying for a cypress save) is imminent if you try to arch for 10-20 seconds and fight a spin like this. Anyone learning to fly a wingsuit or going up in wingsuit size should watch this video and the red-eye spinner posted earlier in the year. thanks for posting the video scotty, and hope it is a life saver to someone.

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

I have no wingsuit experience (yet). Did the guy have trouble because it can be difficult to transition from backflying? Or is it that done the wrong way it can go really bad?

The person just got lazy or over their head flying the suit in that manuever. Manuevers like these are difficult because until you practice them you won't know how much input and how fast it needs to be applied to stay in control. Too little to late and you are along for the ride. Too much too soon and you are just fighting the suit and you don't get the result you wanted. Bigger suits that fit too loose make this more of a problem

[Butters 0]

Did anyone else notice the guy at 4:10 jump while exiting and hit his head?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LouDiamond 1]

I just posted a thread in another forum that is related to this issue, specifically addressing G forces and their effect on the body. The thread can be seen HERE

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