water landings

[BlindBrick 0]

Something just came to me as I was reading through Chuck's list. I've got two non-ws water landings off the NRGB jumping a modified MT-1 canopy. The first jump was a textbook water landing with zero issues as the canopy continued past me, keeping everything clear of me. On the second jump, something was different and my canopy ended up landing on top of me. I was amazed by the amount of lines that managed to land on me and how they tried to tangle me as I was getting out from under the canopy.

It occurs to me that if you face that situation in a ws, you want to be extra careful as you shuck out of the suit. There's many potential snag points with an unzipped suit, all with the potential of catching and ensnaring you as you move around while getting out of the suit. I think it's one of those situations where you're going to have to remind yourself to not panic and take an extra few seconds to do the job carefully, time/situation permitting.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I had a teammate die on a SL water jump in Antigua back around 1992. He got one suspension line caught around his neck just as he touched down in the water. He was being towed face-down across the ocean by the MC1-1C round main and was strangled by that one line. He DID have an inflated UDT vest on, but could not free the line before it killed him. A hook knife could have prevented the fatality. Bear in mind that this was a special forces combat diver, not some regular Joe who hadn't spent a lot of time in open water.

In the military ANYTHING you do for training has to have a Risk Assessment attached to it. Risk Mitigation is serious business, brother. Open forum discussions like this one where people share their real-world experiences, their thought process behind different experiments, and their ideas for improved safety can only help the discipline.

Chuck

[base851 0]

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A hook knife could have prevented the fatality.

If I had a to choose between jumping with a cypres or a hook knife, give me the hook knife. Yes you might ruin some gear, but I'll take a rigging repair bill over a trip to the morgue any day.

[mccordia 73]

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If I had a to choose between jumping with a cypres or a hook knife,

They are different tools/devices, that can both save your life or kill you if used incorrect.

But nobody is making you choose, and the if/or question (regarding an AAD) doesnt seem related to this subject in any way.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[base851 0]

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But nobody is making you choose, and the if/or question (regarding an AAD) doesnt seem related to this subject in any way.

Since when do internet threads stay on point?

But regardless, my point was, people will look at you like you're insane if you don't wear an AAD, yet a hook knife has far more utility in far more situations and people don't even blink about not wearing one.

As far as water landings go, I bring my hook knife and inflatable ducky and I'm good to go.

[The111 0]

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But regardless, my point was, people will look at you like you're insane if you don't wear an AAD, yet a hook knife has far more utility in far more situations and people don't even blink about not wearing one.

I think we're all insane... but here's the difference between AAD and hook knife.

If knocked unconscious in freefall, you will NOT survive without an AAD.

If tangled in a canopy (whether in the air on in the water), you CAN survive without a hook knife. Not 100% of the time, but it is possible.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[base851 0]

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If knocked unconscious in freefall, you will NOT survive without an AAD.

If tangled in a canopy (whether in the air on in the water), you CAN survive without a hook knife. Not 100% of the time, but it is possible.

Fair enough, you can have my hook knife.

But you'll get my inflatable ducky when you pry it from my cold, dead hands...

[SuperGirl 0]

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But you'll get my inflatable ducky when you pry it from my cold, dead hands...

conclusion: always carry a rubber... [ducky]

[QuietStorm 0]

My fine feathered friends; great discussion!

Thank you Scott Campos and Chuck Blue; IMO military has a long running history of training and preparing soldiers, pilots, and airmen of going into the drink with a parachute.....and surviving. What they teach and what you have stated has proven to work!

Scott and Chuck; thank you for your contribution of this knowledge to the civilian parachuting community.

From my personal experience EVERYTHING Chuck and Scott have stated in terms of getting out of parachute gear after a water landing is DEAD ON ACCURATE and takes me back 20 some odd years ago to the water survival training I recieved at Mayport, FL Naval Air Station. Nothing Scott or Chuck have stated is different from the training the midshipmen recieved.

Here is what I can "back" based on my personal experience. That Pro-Tec helmet has a lot of styrofoam in that shock absorbing shell; much like a pilot helmet. Amazing how much float that styrofoam gives!

We had to "survival float" in a pilot helmet, flight suit, and boots in the pool for one hour after climbing out of a parachute harness and canopy that was thrown over us. We got hoisted over a pool by a crane and dropped a good 20 FT into the water. It sucked! Those boots sucked! They pulled you down; but we had to wear them for the "exercise" Yep, get rid of your shoes if your going to be in the drink for a while! That flight suit was like a soggy blanket pulling me down; heavy clothing will do that.

But man o man....was I AMAZED at how much "float" that pilot helmet had in helping me keep my head afloat. After 45 minutes we all got tired and started to struggle but the floatational properties of the styrofoam in the helmet really made a difference. I think the skydiving helmets we typically wear now would be useless if you ditch in water; Protec helmets seem to be a "relic" of the past.

Back in 2006/2007 before the Rocky Point Boogie; my wife and I picked up a few inflatable/belt style PFD'smade by Stearns at West Marine boating store. My wife was not into wingsuits yet, and wore the "belly pack" outside her jumpsuit; no relative wind issues in moving the PFD around. I was wingsuting and found that the belly pack fit rather flat and unobtrusive under my Firebird I was flying at the time. Not as nice as Chuck's UDT vest; but for us jumpers who may travel to one to two boogies a year near a large body of water....well worth the investment! They ran about $50 each. IMO you are a fool not to have one on if you are jumping near the ocean or really, really large bodies of water like rivers or big rivers with a fast moving current.

SPOT; Great discussion about the particulars of crawling out of a wingsuit attached to a rig if you ditch in water; yeah....all this discussion was running through my mind when jumping in Rocky Point and Cabos San Lucas years ago. Plus I was thinking; "dude....your in Mexico...not the U.S; and the urgency to respond may be delayed and way different....better think this through if you land in the ocean"

I certainly hope that if any of us ever has to land in the water under a parachute that's its close to shore, the emergency situation is obvious and help will come quick. Its truly an emergency situation with lethal potential!

Otherwise the long term water survival skills come into play and worse yet the hypothermia situation brought up by Scott's post. Oh in 80 deg plus water temp your stay time is not indefinate; the local sharks in that warm tropical water will determine your outcome.

If you really want to go "Boy Scout" and "Be Prepared" you could stuff a sea dye marker in your pocket. Also there are small life waterproof life vest strobes that you could put in your pocket too. You can get them at West Marine or google Safety of Life at Sea materials.

If you are out in the ocean or large lake or river long enough for your parachute rig to eventually absorb the water and sink; you got big, big problems. You will very difficult to see, even relatively close to shore. So that neon green smear of sea dye on the surface of the water or blink of a strobe might make the difference between life and death so you can be seen and rescued. And what if it all happens on the "sunset load" with night approaching fast? Something to think about.

The "pants technique" works by tieing off the ends of your pants at the ankles, zip up the zipper, and secure the button. Flip then down over your head in front of you trapping air just as the waist opening hits the water. It will trap air but it will escape eventually through the clothing. You will have to repeat; the more tight woven the fabric...the longer the air will stay trapped.


Good point about the hook knife use or the potential to need one.....the Jack the Rippers are big plastic....that Floats! I also keep hook knives in my car just in case.

SPOT Funny you mentioned Lake Elsinore; I have always been more worried about what if at 1,500 Ft or lower the Otter had to ditch in the lake, that somebody in the back would remain calm enough to open that back door so it would jam on impact and that 22 folks could get out calmly.

[strop45 0]

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conclusion: always carry a rubber...

useful when checking penetration...(for the safety conscious)

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[DSE 3]

As an update;
We took wingsuits from a high diving board today (with canopy) wearing boots, jeans, helmet, glasses to simulate an unintentional water landing where you couldn't get chest strap, etc off. We also did landings with everything undone as per USPA recommendations. We did a mix.
Then we moved to a current pool with the water moving at 1200 gpm, which supposedly translates to about 9 mph (math isn't my thing, so taking someone else' word for it).
We did this with canopy out, no reserve so there was no floatation assistance.
We tried survival floating. We tried floating on your back. We tried a lot of things.
We got entanglements in current. We had a canopy catch on a valve and it accidentally simulated a canopy catching on a tree or rock in a fairly fast current.
We learned a lot.
We learned that survival swimming in a wingsuit will cause a very bad day. We learned (as we already knew) that attempting to tread water will likely make for a bad day. We learned about how to get out of a suit in a reasonably fast current while wearing boots, jeans, etc.
We learned that the canopy can drag you faster than you imagine in a current.
Thanks to Justin, Zach, Scotty, Andreea, Robi, Phree, Chuck, Simon, (other names I"m now forgetting) for offering input on a few hypotheticals that we created.
And the bellyflop for fun from 15' was a hoot.
Video to come.
Edited to add pix

[lurch 0]

Second picture made me laugh my ass off. Spot pulls a Mcconkey into a pool! AWESOME!
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[SuperGirl 0]

great stuff, very useful and informative.
I'm very curious to see the new video when you have time to make it.
thanks for putting in so much effort

[mccordia 73]

Awesome to see you do all this, and make the knowledge publicly available.

We learned that survival swimming in a wingsuit will cause a very bad day.

We learned (as we already knew) that attempting to tread water will likely make for a bad day.

That's weird to hear.
I know I read those as the exact things to do in case of a water landing in a wingsuit? Jumping a lot near open waters, I specifically read/remembered that one. Good to see these practical tests in an actual wingsuit done to simulate what could be an ugly lesson in real life...

Are you planning to do another instructional/explanitory video on this one as well? I think its a good thing to get this out there as public knowledge, as a lot of current info seems very theoretical and not actually the best response to these emergency situations..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

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Are you planning to do another instructional/explanitory video on this one as well? I think its a good thing to get this out there as public knowledge, as a lot of current info seems very theoretical and not actually the best response to these emergency situations..

I'm doing a video, and it'll have more title cards, etc. We shot this with 3 cameras, so have some good angles.
What we learned was very different than the dogma we've heard before. In a conversation with Jim Crouch, we talked about why some of this dogma is more or less BS, and we both felt it was because the water training content in the SIM is based around gear/methods in 1972, The game changes a lot when a wingsuit comes into play.
I've also had conversations with folks who have done intentional and unintentional water landings into rivers, lakes, and oceans. I dont know that what we've learned provides every answer; it raises a few questions. Probably the biggest "answer" of all is the realization that getting away from your rig is entirely likely to contribute to a worse incident. A rig with a reserve floats, and floats VERY well. If you're on your back, the reserve affords you a long, long time to get out of your gear even if you go in fully zipped (you should never, ever do this if at all possible to avoid). If you're BASE jumping/no reserve, the same technique essentially applies. Get on your back, get out of your gear while on your back. It is SO much easier, faster, efficient. If the water is cold, economy of movement is even more important. Staying calm is important. Survival swimming in cold water will help you move closer to drowning. Swimming period, will help get you closer to drowning when the water is really cold.
See next month's Parachutist for more info on that topic.

[Buried 0]

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A rig with a reserve floats, and floats VERY well.

and if you had a reserve ride and landed in water....?

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[DSE 3]

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A rig with a reserve floats, and floats VERY well.

and if you had a reserve ride and landed in water....?

See the third para where I mentioned if you were BASE jumping or had no packed reserve...
That's why we went in with both reserve-packed rigs and no-reserve containers. The back-float method still applies. Except that you would no longer have a floation device (For what it's worth, I've learned that reserves do fall into the NTSB's legal definition of a "Flotation Device" but they do not fall into the categories of Type I, II, or III devices).
Reserves effectively meet the requirements for a Type II device for a short (20 min) period of time, depending on a few variables such as reserve size, quality of packjob, and container design.

[mccordia 73]

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and if you had a reserve ride and landed in water....?

Was in the part you selectivly quoted, but was there

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If you're BASE jumping/no reserve, the same technique essentially applies. Get on your back, get out of your gear while on your back. It is SO much easier, faster, efficient.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Buried 0]

so much for me being able to skim while being distracted.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[LouDiamond 1]

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We learned that survival swimming in a wingsuit will cause a very bad day.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by survival swimming?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

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We learned that survival swimming in a wingsuit will cause a very bad day.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by survival swimming?

I replicated the illustration you posted. Same stuff we learned in Boy Scouts 30 years ago, same thing the Red Cross calls "Survival Breathing."

[LouDiamond 1]

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We learned that survival swimming in a wingsuit will cause a very bad day.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by survival swimming?

I replicated the illustration you posted. Same stuff we learned in Boy Scouts 30 years ago, same thing the Red Cross calls "Survival Breathing."

The illustration is of survival floating as a means to float in the water without a PFD. Could you explain what you did and what didn't work for you exactly?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

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The illustration is of survival floating as a means to float in the water without a PFD. Could you explain what you did and what didn't work for you exactly?

"Survival Float"
"Survival Breathe"
"Survival Swimming"
are all the same thing, in terms of understanding and research on the web. No point in beating about semantics.

You'll see what we did in the video. We did make it a point (a few times) to try to survival float/swim/breathe in two different wingsuits because you'd posted it's the appropriate method.
I've got nearly 50 water "jumps" and I'm gonna water-log em.

Edited to add: Here is a fun jump.

[QuietStorm 0]

Hey Spot;

In your experiments see if you can reach out into the skydiving network / community to any active Naval Aviators or former Naval Aviators who are also skydivers.

Naval Aviation operates over the ocean; and has a long history of pilots and parachutes going into the drink since WWII. They don't use wingsuits but there is darn good water survival information to be gleaned from this community.

Some militiary "field training manuals" are made public; some are not.

So there might some other published information readily available on surviving parachute landings into the water.

Have fun !

[BlindBrick 0]

One of our jumpers is a former A4/A6 jock. I'll grill him this weekend.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."