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flymelonfilms

New wingsuit flyers!!! Photos

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Sorry if you think this is a personal attack - You are a total idiot for thinking that is even ok to put a student in an expert suit.
But I am sure as bad ass as you are nothing could ever go wrong!!!

Its irresponsible and just plain stupid - try to justify all you want just because you haven't killed anyone yet doesn't mean its right.

Where are the rest of you that know this is just plain stupid??

Maybe one day I will be a bad ass like you lurch - But I doubt it as I will never compromise my integrity like that


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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I know this subject is pretty much dead but just take a look at the pictures attached. The Intro arm wing ends maybe 3" below the BOC where the Skyflier 3 is around 12".The Skyflier 3 S which is pretty much an Skyflier 6 has about 1-1/2" longer arm wing then the Skyflier 3. While I am sure the intro has a bigger leg wing the arm wing is considerably smaller and ease of access to the BOC is IMHO critical for a beginner suit.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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Voodew: No offense taken. My problems with this thread are:
1: Juan being jumped on for taking up new birds in that suit.

2: The majority of the flaming reaction has been toward me, not even for doing that, because I never have, but because I defended him. Like I said... my own fleet of student suits are Classics and GTIs. I'm mostly retired from instructing now: Too many instructors, and too many playing fast and loose with the rules.

3: The fact that in responses to me, both you and Captain have ignored my actual words in favor of putting words in my mouth to demonize me with. For the last time: I'VE NEVER DONE THAT! And wouldn't, myself, because I tend to be more cautious and conservative than many, when it comes to the lives and safety of my students. My integrity remains quite uncompromised, thank you. I've stuck to the old out of date standards even if I no longer feel they apply, just because deliberate caution is how I work.

This is how I've managed over 1600 wingsuit flights including hundreds in prototype or heavily modified suits like my Godzilla mod S6 with exactly 1 cutaway... you do not manage such a thing by accident, and I try like hell to teach my students how to do the same.

And 4: I evaluate risks and equipment based on the specs. The flames I've attracted in this thread are because of the label attached to the suit in question. A label attached to that suit at the time of its design when wingsuit flying was in its infancy and something that "big" was considered radical.

Jeff and Tony could have named the Intro the "Freemach" and labelled it an "Expert" suit when it was first released and people would violently flame anyone putting up a student in one. Not because of the objective risk but because of the label. Later, some might find it worked surprisingly well as a student suit, and might have even been designed for that purpose.

The point I was trying to make is, the manufacturers call it what they call it based on the standards of the time but as we learn more it is up to the user to use their own judgement. As Juan did.


And last, you don't know the circumstances of the flight in those pictures. I've taken a guy whose first flight was in a monstrous V2. I did not choose the suit...he did. If I'd had my way he wouldn't have been flying it for awhile. I recommended against it but thats all he had, and he had thousands more jumps than I did. There were no student suits available even close to his size, and he bought the suit he knew he would be flying for a long time.

He was going to fly it, with or without my guidance, approval or consent. He asked me to teach him because I was the only resident authority on wingsuit flight in the northeast at the time. I did. My "compromised integrity" told me to do everything I could to make sure he was as well equipped as possible to fly that thing and survive it.

What would you have me do... refuse and tell him tough shit, work it out on your own?

Perhaps that was not Juan's suit. Perhaps it belonged to his student and that student could get nothing else. Perhaps Juan was in fact looking out for a friend, and taking care of him as best he could, just as I did.

So please. Don't rush to judgement. You might be judging someone who is actually doing the Right Thing.

Pardon the sermon...but if my integrity is accused I will respond in full.

Congratulations on the flight guys. Welcome to wingsuit flying. :S
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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It says a lot about this discipline when this sort of flaming goes on over something that while isn't optimal, next to nothing has been said about coaches that have put multiple students in Blades and Vampires for FFC's, or instructors that don't gear up, sit with, and supervise their students (one of which resulted in a fatality due to missing legstraps).
Just last evening broke bread with someone who had a Blade for his first flights. He didn't know what he didn't know, but knows enough now that he doesn't want to fly the Blade for a long while.
Yet we're arguing over this subject with this intensity?
People have died and less has been said.

We are indeed strange birds.

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It blows my mind that some seem to think it is OK to take a wingsuit student up on an advanced wingsuit of any kind for their first jump. If I personally ever saw that, there would be more than just a few words said about it to the instructor ( and I really do not care about how many wingsuit jumps they have or how many times they have gotten away with taking first time wingsuit pilots up on a V1 or what ever) wrong is wrong and the only way to keep it from happening is to be very vocal about it.
I find it interesting that even amounst ourselves there is ? of what would be appropriate suit as even you defended the use of a Skyflier 3 for a first jump. If the experienced wingsuit pilots can not define beginner suits from advanced suits how can we expect the students to define it for their first purchase of a wingsuit
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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If the experienced wingsuit pilots can not define beginner suits from advanced suits how can we expect the students to define it for their first purchase of a wingsuit



Hence the debate.

Actually I think it's safe to say that no one here advocates placing students in equipment that's so advanced as to be clearly dangerous (like, say, placing a student on a Velocity loaded at 3.0).

We can roughly categorize beginner wingsuits as: Preferred, Sub-Optimal and No-Freaking-Way.

The biggest portion of this debate has been which of those three categories Wingsuit X falls into. Some, such as the Intro and Prodigy, fall clearly in the "Preferred" category.

The hottest debates seem to be with regard to whether older suits, "advanced" for their times, such as the S3, still fall in the third category or are more Sub-Optimal in light of the current knowledge base.

While I'd retract my earlier statement of an S3 being a "fine" beginner's suit, right now it's my only choice, and I'm still learning in it pending delivery of my Phantom 2.

My own noob personal take on the S3? It's pretty stable to fly. It's a friggging bitch to fly well. It's a better suit (for me anyway) to cover ground than maximize FF time. There is a fair amount of fabric between you and the hacky come pull time. So expect some fumbling around the first few times.

Those are the biggest things I notice. YMMV...

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I find it interesting that even amounst ourselves there is ? of what would be appropriate suit as even you defended the use of a Skyflier 3 for a first jump.




Just because I don't tend to think that using an S3 is a tragedy waiting to happen doesn't mean I condone the use of an S3 for FFC's.
Would I use one? No. Would I say something if I saw it happening? Probably. Depends on the circumstances. If nothing else was available, if the coach could do an adequate job of teaching and working with the student, then I do believe the S3 can be used for an FFC. If there were an Intro, Prodigy, GTI, Phantom available, hopefully those would be the first choices in any given situation. But, if you've got no other options except saying "you can't go..." then the S3 is a choice I wouldn't freak out over. I'd merely spend more time training the student, including laying them down on a creeper and pulling their hackey.

That said, I have a fleet of several Intro's and Phantoms that are bought and paid for, not given to me for free by manufacturers.
In other words, I've laid my money on the table for what I personally believe to be the right choices.:P

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. If the experienced wingsuit pilots can not define beginner suits from advanced suits how can we expect the students to define it for their first purchase of a wingsuit



In case you've not noticed, we haven't even managed to define what a wingsuit is.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Its an aerodynamic piece of gear that enables a skydiver to perform at least double the performance of the natural human body...


Spin twice as fast, tumble three times harder, spin up a canopy four times longer, cutaway five times faster, grow an ego 6 times bigger:P
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Spin twice as fast, tumble three times harder, spin up a canopy four times longer, cutaway five times faster, grow an ego 6 times bigger



...and induce this pony topic. :$
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

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Base, that was well summed up.
My own perspective on the S3 and 6 suits is likely to be somewhat relaxed because of my experience in one. I found the S6 to be the best general-purpose suit I've ever flown. These days I'm sporting a monstrous S-bird which certainly IS something of a challenge to fly, but my old S6, I could fly in my sleep.

Your Noob take on a 3 is fairly accurate. To get the most out of one, get your elbows out, suck your chest in, roll your shoulders and get your head down. Get flat as a plank, lock your knees and point your toes. And relax.

A thing I taught students regardless of the suit they were using, is a methodical approach to getting at the handle that works no matter how big the wings are.

Bring both arms back and touch your fingertips together behind your back under the bottom of the rig. Bring the fingertips up until you touch the BOC pouch itself.
Separate your hands and drag your fingers across the BOC pouch. This WILL put the handle directly into your fingers, scraping any and all wing out of your way as you go.

Once this becomes a habit you'll find you're reaching around the wing automatically every time and you get the handle, first grab, every time. When you get fluid enough at it, you don't need to actually press or touch the pouch, just whipping your hands around to the general area is the move you need.

A panicky student trying for a straight line shot can wrap their handle in a wing, even with wings as small as a GTI. I've seen it happen. Which is why I started teaching that technique. Students are a lot less likely to get panicky when they are reassured and can demonstrate to themselves to their own satisfaction that with the right technique done smoothly and deliberately, they can ALWAYS get a clean grab on the handle in one try.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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