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pms07

wingsuit organization (A place of our own?)

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If you want to have a laugh, look up the discussion from 2008, when people suggested first coming up with a working judging standard, before calling things world records..See who where the biggest voices AGAINST it;)

You are so skewed in mixing apreachiation, achievements, and FLAWED RULES pushed through for validation/credits.
The people now screaming on official records being needed to give it a vallue, where the ones saying the excact opposite when it was first mentioned. The 2008 bigway didnt have any official validation during, at and after the event. And the general feeling of achievement was bigger across the community, than current belief in the things as applied now.

Glad the USPA is seeing through the selective quoting and misinterpetation, used to push incomplete rules through.

The things achieved, and methods used to judge are two different things..
Validation that means something is sure worth a lot.
Shame the general perception of current standards, isnt part of that.

Stop playing the sad crying victim and open your eyes...see what people are saying, and why they are saying it. Its only 'them against you' if you make it into that...

The judging standard didnt create those bigways...people did..
You want to call any achievement in wingsuit flying sh#t due to it not having an official record label, be my guest. Glad to see many think different.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Phil,

It does seem that there are some grabbing for power these days. I dont think anyone is trying to take anything away from any of the participants of either of those events. Everyone did a great job, no question there. However I was at the BOD meeting. I recall quite a few things about how things went in meetings, as well as how they went at flock and dock. I cannot say that how some people handled themselves was something other than impressive. It sure seems that you take this all quite seriously, considering you were too busy working on your freeflying to join any of us in the sky during Flock and dock, The oldest running wingsuit event around. it seems that there is a large difference in some growing groups in our community, and that difference appears to be a willingness to jump at other peoples events; being an equal oppertunity skydiver. Mabye Im just sick and goddamn tired of all the political BS going on in our community, and the perpetrators thereof. Cant we all just get along? I sure see someone in this thread grabbing for something. its a big sky up there.. isnt there enough room for us all? I dont care to watch these forums anymore due to this very thread. I dont have time to write a book about why we should all get along, but cant well all see that is the best way out? Stay tuned kids... Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Scotty Burns
Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

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And the general feeling of achievement was bigger across the community, than current belief in the things as applied now.



The only reason that there wasn't a feeling of achievement was because the PR campaign against the grid started immediately.

The participants of the (in my opinion) BETTER formation were never given their community due, because the politics were already flying. Who was responsible for that?

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Glad the USPA is seeing through the selective quoting and misinterpetation, used to push incomplete rules through.



Who? Names help... Really you can say things over and over, but until people go on record as saying such a thing...Its your word against anyone else's.

Which brings me back to my original questions here:
1. Name of "the respected wingsuiters"
2. Names of USPA Officials - and them going on record that they think this divisive move is a good idea
3. How this is different than just participating in the our respective countries governing bodies?
4. Why we need this to "avoid tar babies" - when it's been proven we can work together - all without MORE POLITICS

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Hey there boys and girls~

Just so everyone is made aware of the current changes in the wingsuit community, Phil has been elected to head up the new Central Wingsuit Intelligence Agency, or CWIA. Their lead charge is to ensure that the Names, addresses, phone numbers, and first born of all of those involved in the new terrorist group, the "Axis of Wingsuiting Evildoers", all come to light so the entire community can banish these Tar-babied morons from ever zipping up their suits again! Those Fools who just wont drink the special Kool-Aid. All those evil-doers and anyone who jumps with them should just burn their wingsuits and take up freeflying! oh no wait, bellyflying. Wouldn't want you to have to deal with these evil-doers since a focus on freeflying during the largest wingsuit event of the year is just what the dr. ordered.

Come on guys, are you really serious?

oh yeah, and remember,

Researchers: "Pigeon flocks let the best bird lead" but "While flocks have hierarchies, they’re not dictatorships. Ever thought of a really narrow, wide mustache?
Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

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WOW! Lots of angry words over something still unknown, undefined, brought up in passing, and not affecting anyone in any way.
What are you so afraid of?
No one here has anything to lose from an idea that may or may not work. NO ONE. What scares you so much?

FYI, there is no "ringleader" but interesting I'm accused as such. That’s a politically loaded charge if there ever was such a thing, from someone who "has no time for politics."

No one here has an intent of sending hysterical mass emails to non-wingsuiters filled with lies, half-truths, and intentional distortions of the truth such as claiming we’ve been invited to speak on behalf of USPA or that we’re trying to repeal records. Or that “ringleaders of a minority are conspiring against us.” We wouldn’t dare use Twitter to send scary tweets threatening the “end of wingsuiting as we now know it.” Or utilize Facebook to twist the truth by controlling who can see and respond to public statements.

We don’t want to have the president of the USPA take us into an open room and chew out our ass over what we’re attempting, confronting us with intentional untruths and inaccuracies. It was uncomfortable and embarrassing enough watching and hearing it happen to someone else. I don’t ever want to be “those two.” No matter how much I appreciate and agree with the woodshedding, I also felt sorry for them. When Scotty made a joke about it, the response to his joke made me feel a lot less sorry for them.

This came after the Competition Chair had to threaten of expulstion of two persons because they would not respectfully listen to what Zach Schroedel had to say to the competition commitee.
When the grid was proposed, NO ONE knew it was being proposed, so there was no one there to harumph, interrupt, curse, vigorously shake their head, nor rudely make their opposition known in any way. When Zach was speaking he was interrupted over and over, not to mention other sorts of exceptionally rude displays of childish behavior, to the point that both the Chair and President of the USPA had to stop it in open meeting.
You wanna talk about what you want people to know? These are things they should know.

We would not want the USPA feeling like anything we do is opposed to or not in alignment with the organization, nor wasting their time in legal, fiduciary, or moral senses. We want to be sure anything we might undertake is respectful to all organizations, all governing bodies, and to all people in the sport.
We want to know what we’re doing before we make any statement or take action. We hope to get it as right as we can in one and develop from there. Seems reasonable enough, no?

Moreover, we're working in a direction that is as much global as local. Maybe we can’t make it work. But some of us sure are going to try. We’ll probably make some missteps. I certainly have. And when I did, I went immediately to the people affected by my words and apologized to them. And both graciously accepted my apology and understood my error.

It’s unfortunate a couple of you believe the effort is about you and political partnerships or your plans to "pwn'd the wingsuit world." You, your political position, what you claim to own isn’t part of our goalset in a negative nor positive sense. It simply doesn’t enter into the picture for anyone I know. There are multiple precedents in skydiving related to what is hoped to achieve. There is nothing for anyone to lose.

We're trying to make sure that each step taken is transparent, communal, fair, and in everyone's best interests as we move forward. Trying to achieve the mechanisms and protocols for doing this takes effort.
Our initial goals are far more about research than rules. And more about community input than about getting our names in the history books for being "the ones."

We all have day gigs. Teamwork takes time. Had it not been for someone actually reading the notes from the meeting, it’s likely no one would have their panties in a wad right now.

At the BOD meeting I proposed BJ Worth as a liason between the camps relating to the wingsuit judgment methods? Phil raised his hand and opposed BJ merely because I asked for and nominated him. When Scott Smith and Bill Wenger then said that he'd be their choice anyway, Phil and Taya vocally opposed him. Simply because I proposed BJ Worth to be that point of contact.:S Wouldn’t you say that was a knee-jerk reaction?
(For purposes of clarity, I also suggested Andreea/Supergirl, because she's pretty objective, but that suggestion was laid to the side during further discussion).

Oppose the effort if you wish; of course that’s anyone's prerogative. Opposing an idea which you haven't yet heard is indeed also a knee-jerk reaction. Then again Phil, you’ve already publicly demonstrated that any idea any idea I suggest, even before it clears my lips. That, is a “knee-jerk reaction” if I’ve ever seen one.:D

Phil claims a "power grab attempt" is being made.
What power is there to grab?
Who has it now?
How did they get it?
When did it occur?
Is it a brandwar or "east coast vs the world thing?"
Why didn't this community know about it or did we just miss it somehow?
Where can we see the results of this "power?"
I'd like to know what those thinking they're losing their "power" plan to do with this "power." Can they see through walls? Leap tall buildings? Wither skydivers with a single glance? Kill ideas before they're borne?
What is it anyone feels they have to lose?

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Whenever a small group does something that can affect all, but without open discussion, others who are aware that something's up but don't know what or who are likely to suspect the existence of an EVIL CABAL.

I don't think there was any evil intent in those who proposed the grid last year. They just wanted to have a way to evaluate an event they were planning. They could have been more diplomatic about it.

I don't think there's any evil intent among those who pointed out weaknesses in "the grid", even if they met in small groups to discuss it. (and, IMO, exaggerated the weaknesses).

If anyone is planning some formal or semi-formal wingsuit special interest group, I'd suggest they organize as openly as possible before they too are viewed as an "Evil Cabal".
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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If anyone is planning some formal or semi-formal wingsuit special interest group, I'd suggest they organize as openly as possible before they too are viewed as an "Evil Cabal".



I totally agree. Particularly on any issue concerning training, which has always been my first priority.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA
DragonFly Wingsuit School
Raeford Parachute Center

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Whenever a small group does something that can affect all, but without open discussion, others who are aware that something's up but don't know what or who are likely to suspect the existence of an EVIL CABAL.
[...]
If anyone is planning some formal or semi-formal wingsuit special interest group, I'd suggest they organize as openly as possible before they too are viewed as an "Evil Cabal".



You make some very good points.

However, the issue I see is that we've come to a point where some people can't even take a fart in here without it being too political and generating a whole bunch of strongly opposing reactions.
"Oh no!! He farted!!! It must be a really evil fart!!!"


While we're on the topic of BOD meeting memories... "Relax, Phil, just relax!! just be calm!!!" :D:D:D:D:D
Okay just kidding.


About this organization... group... thing... whatever... we quickly went from "hey guys, here's a random thought, is this something worth pursuing?" to "there is a conspiracy going on! KILL KILL KILL"

Speak of being transparent... this is what happens when you're too transparent, too early. The idea didn't even get finished but the community was told about it, and now look at this whole mess of a thread over something that is still in the works and hasn't even been properly set up yet. Just because someone tried to keep things as open as possible.

While an idea is still just getting developed and hasn't matured enough to be worth discussing publicly yet, it is just silly to post here every little detail that will in another 10 seconds actually get changed or dismissed.

How about we all hold off for a little while and see if this even ends up going anywhere. We're only talking about something along the lines of research group for fuck's sake!
It's not like we're declaring war to each other!
(though Scotty did once have a very good idea about some girl on girl jello-wrestling to settle all the wingsuit drama once and for all :P)

If/when more details are available, it'll be good to hear various opinions and feedback.

Until then, stay safe and keep flying!

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It's not like we're declaring war to each other!
(though Scotty did once have a very good idea about some girl on girl jello-wrestling to settle all the wingsuit drama once and for all :P)
!




I see EVIL all over that! Can I referee?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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It's not like we're declaring war to each other!
(though Scotty did once have a very good idea about some girl on girl jello-wrestling to settle all the wingsuit drama once and for all :P)
!




I see EVIL all over that! Can I referee?



You just wanna hand-measure the point to point values as data for the Kallend method. ;)

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Im glad someone was able to hear, and agree with my fine resolution to this situation. and on another note I hope everyone was able to see my HUMOURS post before It was removed.. . there was no ill intentions behind it, however i think the Central Wingsuit Intelligence Agency was pretty damn funny... And its nice to be back in the air, on a lighter note~

LETS ALL GO FLY TOGETHER! Mabye then, we can all see Eye to Eye.. :P
Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

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This is a friendly neighborhood post to remind everyone that we have an extraordinary opportunity for "a place of our own" this year with the Wingsuit Working Group at the IPC (International Parachuting Commission).

The Working Group was set up specifically to help the IPC define a wingsuit and recognize wingsuit no-contact formation records this year, 2010. The group's successful presentation to the IPC for voting in January 2011 can be a gateway to more competition and record formats in the coming years.

How can you participate?

By posting your ideas and proposals to the IPC wingsuit forum as the threads there are updated throughout the year. By contacting me and Jarno (we are advisors to the group) with your questions and ideas. By contacting the three voting members directly, if you prefer. Contact info for all is here.

It only takes a minute to sign up. The forum is moderated.

Everyone is encouraged to participate and share ideas. The Flock n Dock video Part 2 (password: wingsuit) has my off the cuff talk about this, about 50 seconds in.

Why is it only focused on no-contact wingsuit records this year (and not a broader set of topics)? One reason is simply that every group needs focus in order to achieve goals in a set period of time. The definition of a wingsuit is finally coming together after 2 and a half months, with the help of manufacturers and designers.

Everyone involved in the IPC Working Group hopes that it will lead to much, much more. I hope that this community will embrace the opportunity to participate and have multiple voices heard at the IPC level. It's an honor to be given this opportunity, the same honor and process that every other discipline goes through as it evolves. There is great care being taken by the Group's chairperson (Jacqui Bruwer from South Africa) to ensure openness and fairness in the process.

Whatever else is taking place simultaneously, the IPC Working Group and its success this year should be something we all care about and contribute to. We have some of the most experienced and dedicated people in skydiving working hard to help wingsuiting take the next steps - Ronald Overdijk, Jacqui Bruwer, and Larry Bagley. Let's help them by participating and showing our support.

Again, the IPC forum and contact details for the three Working Group members and two advisers is here: http://www.fai.org/parachuting/node/1680

Anyone who wants more information about this, the process, etc., please consider my door open.

Thanks, -T
It's the Year of the Dragon.

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Enough freaking drama. I've avoided this until now, but I have to speak my piece.

To anyone that's listening, either you let people tell you what wingsuiting is, or you participate in the discussion of what it really is. You need to choose who you are.

Either you jump with your wingsuiting friends, or you show up at an event, don't jump, and run your fat stinking mouth. I've jumped with nearly everyone in this community, and two of the most vocal folks in this discussion showed up, then made the decision not to jump with the wingsuiters of Flock and Dock 6. I think that freaking stinks, and you two know who you are. I've gladly put my old, married, with children ass out front as base hundreds of times for everyone to aim their skills at. Did either of these people offer to fly base, jump with us, or join in the event? FCK NO. So, I have to ask, Who are you to define the rules for me?

These are the people that want to dictate to the wingsuiting community what the rules are by going to meetings with USPA, IPC, etc ... Well, I choose not to play by your rules. I respect your charitable goals, but I do not feel that those goals have anything to do with wingsuiting and pressing the envelope of what's possible. I do not think that you represent wingsuiting in way that drives it into the future. I reject your self-determined authority over me or what I do.

If and when I have the chance to play in another sandbox than yours, I'll do it. That sandbox is going to be one that we all determine what the rules are, not a few.

We all should have a voice in what's right for the future of our discipline, not the few who have the time and money to jet around the world going to meetings with the executives. I'm here to have fun and see where the sport leads us.

I'm done.

Scott Bland

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This is a friendly neighborhood post to remind everyone that we have an extraordinary opportunity for "a place of our own" this year with the Wingsuit Working Group at the IPC (International Parachuting Commission)



Thanks for your kind and friendly reminder.
While this is great for your attempt of constructing a wingsuit definition and later on judging standards for non-linked formations, there are so many areas of our discipline that would benefit from improved and organized research and development, areas that are way outside the scope of your IPC workgroup. Many of these areas are not yet refined enough. Even the thought of involving the IPC in those issues is silly. That might be the case for years to come. Maybe I wanna work on something like docked wingsuit 4-way. Hell, we haven't even completed that diamond yet. But as we start doing one thing after another, having a way to immediately promote ideas, encourage discussions and facilitate progress would be beneficial for us all, without any overlap with the current IPC workgroup's duties. Many of these things need discussion and research because we barely even know what we as a community want to do.

Quote


Why is it only focused on no-contact wingsuit records this year (and not a broader set of topics)? One reason is simply that every group needs focus in order to achieve goals in a set period of time. The definition of a wingsuit is finally coming together after 2 and a half months, with the help of manufacturers and designers.



True. Every group needs a focus. There is also nothing wrong with different groups focusing on all sorts of different things. We are talking about setting up something that promotes multiple discussions... something that gets a lot more than 2 wingsuiters and 3 non-wingsuiters involved in a defining a few standards, but way beyond that.

You feel free to continue to do your thing, but, please, also let everyone else do theirs.

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+1000000

And if you didnt know, Scott Bland was skysurfing before most of us knew what a wingsuit was... and is one of the only people that I trust enough to follow out the door without even looking.

And just in case you didnt get to see it, Heres my post that was removed. I must be careful with my verbage, I wouldnt want anyone to think this is a Personal Attack, because it is not..

Just so everyone is made aware of the current changes in the wingsuit community, someone has been elected to head up the new Central Wingsuit Intelligence Agency, or CWIA. Their lead charge is to ensure that the Names, addresses, phone numbers, and first born of all of those involved in the new terrorist group, the "Axis of Wingsuiting Evildoers", all come to light so the entire community can banish these Tar-babied morons from ever zipping up their suits again! Those Fools who just wont drink the special Kool-Aid. All those evil-doers and anyone who jumps with them should just burn their wingsuits and take up freeflying! oh no wait, bellyflying!

Come on guys, are you really serious?

oh yeah, and remember,

Researchers: "Pigeon flocks let the best bird lead" but "While flocks have hierarchies, they’re not dictatorships.

On another note, Birds that wont fly with the flock Usually get left behind pecking somewhere in a birdfeeder, or get eaten by a predator. Gotta Love Nature. :)
Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

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something that gets a lot more than 2 wingsuiters and 3 non-wingsuiters involved in a defining a few standards...
You feel free to continue to do your thing, but, please, also let everyone else do theirs.



This is a misunderstanding about the nature, structure, and goals of the International Parachuting Commission and its Wingsuit Working Group.

For clarity:

The IPC Working Group is open and relevant for everyone. The only thing required to participate is effort and time. Here, again, is the link to that forum.

Many good people at the IPC and other National associations are working hard to create opportunities for wingsuiting this year. Many of them have some wingsuit jumps and want to do more. Some don't, but that doesn't make their long experience in the sport irrelevant.

I certainly don't own any of these opportunities or processes, so it's not accurate to refer to them as being "mine" vs. anyone else's. For example, although we don't always agree, Jarno and I are both working hard on the IPC group goals. I admire him hugely for his contributions. Same goes for all the manufacturers who have taken their time to construct a working definition of a wingsuit, which has turned out to be a more interesting exercise than any of us probably imagined.

WS definition is still in progress, by the way, so please check out the thread in the IPC forum if you want to weigh in.

So to recap: It's OURS. Whatever else you have going on this year - whatever else - please also support and contribute to the IPC efforts, as the opportunity, and its outcomes, belong to all of us.

Thanks, -Taya
It's the Year of the Dragon.

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The IPC Working Group is open and relevant for everyone. The only thing required to participate is effort and time. Here, again, is the link to that forum.



I was going to post this in the thread about the IPC forum but it looks like it's locked... oh well... I guess we can continue the thread hijacking here then...

Is there a way to somehow more directly connect threads in the IPC forum to discussions here on dz.com?
I know you guys want a more moderated bullshit-free discussion on there, but with it being a relatively new forum, you can't expect everyone to check that with the same frequency they end up showing up here on dz.com. Valuable input could never make it there simply because of not enough participation.

Let me explain a little further. When the IPC forum first got set up, first thing I did was look for subscribing to notifications about new stuff there. From what I see (correct me if I'm wrong), there is no way to "watch" threads like on dropzone.com. There is an RSS feed for the forum. I kept going back to that page from time to time but after a few days of complete silence kinda forgot about it. Besides, I assumed that the RSS feed would deliver any new content to me instantly... but it turns out it will only pick up on new topics/threads. Any posts that are replies to an existing topic aren't really full posts, but "comments", whatever that means, what it means to me is they DON'T show in the feed. So now here I am looking at the IPC forum and realizing there have been a bunch of posts in the wingsuit definition discussion, and I had no idea :(

Also, while I'm on the topic of critiquing the IPC forum... it looks like comments are shown "newest first". This is a bit annoying cause reading a new thread that already has a bunch of posts has to be done bottom-up. Any way to enable the user to change that sort order?

thanks!

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Dropzone.com is better suited technically than the IPC forum for discussion, throwing around ideas, etc. That volume of posting is probably too much for working group folks to read and sort through.

The IPC forum is moderated so that new posts are seen and approved by at least one of the voting members of the Working Group (so if you post, it doesn't appear immediately).

But I gather that the hope is for dropzone.com/real dropzone/offline discussion/thinking/jumping to lead to well-thought-out posts and proposals on the IPC forum, which is public so everyone can see what the Working Group sees.

As far as changing the order of comments as they appear, and making the RSS more useful - good points! I will ask and see if we can change the settings, but I'm not sure.

Thanks, -T
It's the Year of the Dragon.

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Many of these things need discussion and research because we barely even know what we as a community want to do.



Community, I have a goal for us:

Let's try to make the naked docked wingsuit rodeo diamond with hot chicks and surf it down a giant puffy over a beach on a sunset jump B|

Thank you,

Purple Mike

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Community, I have a goal for us:

Let's try to make the naked docked wingsuit rodeo diamond with hot chicks and surf it down a giant puffy over a beach on a sunset jump B|

Thank you,

Purple Mike



Purple Mike for IPC Prez!

Hands down. Go Purple!



This is a shameless power grab by one wingsuitor that obviously thinks he is the rodeo king. He is seeking to enslave all of us to his will. So will I have to beg permission from the "Master" before I can put anybody on my back to make a flight?
I can see you are a pawn of his, as shown by this fawning post. Trying to become the Gobbels to his Hitler, eh?
I for one am having none of it! Fellow wingsuitors, we must unite against this tyranny. Do not be taken in by this scoundrel. Ignore his vast skills at doing rodeos, and look at his real purpose. HE WANTS ALL THE GIRLS FOR HIMSELF!!!
Open your eyes, before it's too late.
But what do I know?

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it turns out it [the RSS] will only pick up on new topics/threads.



This has been fixed- the RSS now picks up on all new Comments. I hope this solution helps everyone keep up with what's happening on the Wingsuit Working Group site. Thanks!
It's the Year of the Dragon.

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