USPA BOD meeting

[DSE 3]

In the initial session prior to breakout:
"Motion to prevent USPA from endorsing/promoting any wingsuit judging method to the IPC" passed unanimously.
Board openly recognized "contention within the wingsuit community" and Chair of Competition Committee admitted the committee has "acted in haste" in some situations.

Several WX'rs are here, we'll see where the Competition Committee goes from here.

Also before the board is more discussion on a USPA-supported wingsuit instructional system/program/recognition/SIM/syllabus of some flavor or another in some future point in time. Results from the USPA.org syllabus commentaries are in, and are being weighed.

Thus far, that is the only WX related discussion, although it's likely there will be more in-depth and varied topics.

[Taz 0]

I am tweeting from the meeting at www.twitter.com/tayaweiss Anyone can follow.

The presentation I plan to make about wingsuit records is online now: http://post.ly/OhQ1

I'm not the most prolific DZ.com poster, especially in the past few months. But if anyone wants my perspective or has questions about what I believe, anything related to the US National Record, my role as an IPC Wingsuit Working Group adviser, or anything else, send me a PM or email me, [email protected]. I'll send you my phone number and we can talk.

Blue Skies, -T

[peggs82 0]

Quote

Chair of Competition Committee admitted the committee has "acted in haste" in some situations.

As always, there will be certain ways of presenting information. What we leave out says a lot some times.

What was left out from this statement is that the USPA Director of Competition said this morning in his full, public Board presentation that we are leading the world in the wingsuit category and will continue to do so.

It was clarified by the president of the board that "in no way diminishes or takes away from the excellent accomplishment of all records and their organization"

Lastly, it was clarified in a re-reading of ANNEX 52, the US delegation never sought the reported "immediate implementation" at the FAI.

Only after all of that did the board pass the motion.

The tone here is certainly not the "we made a gross error" that seems to be a common party line floating around.

I am here at the BOD meeting to keep everyone honest.

[The111 0]

Quote

The tone here is certainly not the "we made a gross error" that seems to be a common party line floating around.

Party line? Is that like a conga?

Or does it mean I'm gonna have to start putting signs in my front yard about which representative to elect next?

Enough politics... go make a docked 4-way diamond, somebody.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[fmmobley 0]

Great presentation Taya, thanks for posting that.

Also, thanks for your comments Phil, please keep them coming when further explanation is needed.

... Marion

[DSE 3]

Perhaps I should have said more, was intent on being "dry."
With regard to Wenger's comments about "in haste," he was specifically referring to Style and Accuracy and "other things", not specific to wingsuiting.

Regarding other subjects, a great evening for wingsuit discussion occurred with Taya, Phil, Scotty, JP, myself, Scott Campos, and members of the BOD. Hopefully great things will come out of it.
Sushi and sake' afterwards sure was fun.
This truly is the "Wingsuit Weekend" with all the various things before the board for our discipline.

[PhoenixRising 0]

Enough politics... go make a docked 4-way diamond, somebody.

Cheers
And we will do so

Wingsuit organizing, first flight courses and coaching
Flock University
Tonysuits

[mccordia 73]

Taya, in improvements outlined, the flyer size is still a large variable.
Selecting a 2.15 meter base flyer will give everyone a very big tollerance, compared to a 1.50 person flying base. And the same goes for the people flying the slots.

In a formation with a small person as a base, a tall person would hardly have room to move. Instead of variable outlines (do the 1 meter tail, or the 50 cm grippers on the armwings on a big wingsuit count as part of a person?) we need to go to a single point evaluation.
Be it a head of a person of a centered point based on the outline. But the variables the flyer (and wingsuit)size introduce in the system are setting us up for a lot of weird judgement calls. Decreased or altered margins arent 'the' ultimate answer either...


I still see a big push for a certain 'system' instead of a step back, sitting down and looking at available judging variables available, and how they may be used/combined, and building it up from there.

I hope everyone takes the positive note from the IPC allong in further actions, showing we need time to work out details before going back to practical application. And not keep modifying current standards to keep them in active use 'for records sake'


I would hope the conclusion of your USPA presentation echo's the decisions of the IPC, not to accept anything, but instead continue the process in the form of a (USPA) workinggroup. Listening and working with the community to further the judgement standards. Acceptance and Practical use are steps following after that...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[aerodynamite 0]

Quote

Taya, in improvements outlined, the flyer size is still a large variable.
Selecting a 2.15 meter base flyer will give everyone a very big tollerance, compared to a 1.50 person flying base. And the same goes for the people flying the slots.

So we must not let Taya fly the base...

- No mercy in the flock! Straighten your legs!!! -

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Perhaps I should have said more, was intent on being "dry."
With regard to Wenger's comments about "in haste," he was specifically referring to Style and Accuracy and "other things", not specific to wingsuiting.

Thanks for the clarification. It did NOT come across that way the first time you wrote it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LouDiamond 1]

Lots of good things accomplished today. A positive move in the right direction without being heavy handed. I'm sure the others will post more from their laptops as the details are hard to write on my iPhone.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

Motion passed the Safety and Training Committee, now has passed the Board of Directors.

Changes to USPA Basic Safety Requirements;
Move to change section 2-1 Add minimum of 200 jumps for any wingsuit jumps.

Motion Passed.

It's official. It's now a requirement (no longer a recommendation) to have a minimum of 200 skydives before putting on a wingsuit.

All wingsuiters present demonstrated a unified voice in this motion.
Thanks to Tom Noonan for writing the motion on our behalf; it's the first change in the BSR's in a long time.

Thus far, Taya Weiss and Zach Schroedel have presented on wingsuit judging mechanisms. Andreea will present at 6 p.m.

We now have 3 members of the BOD who have taken an FFC in the past 6 months, and two others planning on it. Interest and support are growing.

[Birdman_Mike 0]

I am 1.76 meters in case anyone is applying a base height dependent method to any formation in which I flew base.

Purple Mike

Quote

Quote

Taya, in improvements outlined, the flyer size is still a large variable.
Selecting a 2.15 meter base flyer will give everyone a very big tollerance, compared to a 1.50 person flying base. And the same goes for the people flying the slots.

So we must not let Taya fly the base...

[kallend 1,623]

From the USPA website:

"The Competition Committee met with several members of the wingsuit community and made slight modifications to the way wingsuit formation records are judged."

Does anyone know what were the slight modifications?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Buried 0]

Quote

Does anyone know what were the slight modifications?

- the height (head to foot, not ws tail) of the base flyer must meet or exceed 27% of the height of the flying box. Updated grid to include height markings will be available on USPA website.

-flyer must be 100% within grid space


to my knowledge no current records meet these added criteria. I know the summerfest one does not for sure and that was the cleanest one out there

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[mccordia 73]

Quote

- the height (head to foot, not ws tail

So putting the legs on the ass at the right time, or giving them a brief stretch in a freefalling formations is worth concidering.
And tall guys will probably become populair base-flyers for bigways (sorry mike).

Quote

to my knowledge no current records meet these added criteria. I know the summerfest one does not for sure and that was the cleanest one out there

If a step by step evolution into other proposed judging methods is what this needs, just for credits sake, than so be it. But good to see some form of input finally accepted. Shame starting with a clean slate still doesn't seem possible..
Funny how the unwillingness to make a clean start has seemingly now lead to a definition so strict we we'll be looking at a 2011 '9 way' world record again. With a bit of luck, docked formation records may even be bigger soon

I wonder if this would now count as a world record?
Frenchies.
Could someone judge this with the new rules?

Regardless of flaws, minor or big, I guess its an improvement over the previous rules. Though public credit with regards to who to thank may be a bit skewed, thank you to everyone involved...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

Quote

- the height (head to foot, not ws tail

So putting the legs on the ass at the right time, or giving them a brief stretch in a freefalling formations is worth concidering.
And tall guys will probably become populair base-flyers for bigways (sorry mike).

solid base flying skills will always be more important than height. you can put the tallest dude as base, but if the base flies all over the place, good luck having a nice formation!

Quote

If a step by step evolution into other proposed judging methods is what this needs, just for credits sake, than so be it. But good to see some form of input finally accepted. Shame starting with a clean slate still doesn't seem possible..

it's a process that takes time... a clean slate may not necessarily be needed. ultimately it is up to us as a community to figure out what we want as the best judging mechanism, and when we've figured that out ourselves, it will be easier to have the governing bodies accept that, too...
Just because we're not trashing the current standard doesn't mean it can't evolve into a completely different type of system over the months/years. But first we need to fly more and test our various hypotheses.

One of the biggest things we accomplished at this BOD meeting was eventually getting all parties to talk, exchange ideas, negotiate/collaborate, and find common goals to work towards. We still have a long way to go, but we're taking baby steps in the right direction.

[The111 0]

Quote

I wonder if this would now count as a world record?
Frenchies.
Could someone judge this with the new rules?

There is WAY too much spherical distortion in that photo to even fully understand what's going on. (a problem that still exists with all grid/photo methods)

Moreover, it appears they are flying very tight which would make most grids invalid if you're not allowed to overlap squares (similar to this one).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

Quote

Moreover, it appears they are flying very tight which would make most grids invalid

So when we reach the quality in formations we aim for, the current method renders them invalid. Nice one...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

A quick down and dirty summary of what transpired at the BOD meeting that concerned Wingsuits.

1. The USPA Wingsuit instructor proposal was not supported by anyone on the BOD. The wingsuit subcommittee and the individuals from the WSing community , along with the USPA president, Jay Stokes, met for discussion on the matter. The motion to put forth a change to the BSR was agreed upon by all and Tom N. chaired the motion to present it to the full BOD. After a vote, it went to the full board where it was opened to discussion. All the individuals from the WSing community present stood and voiced their support for the BSR implementation prior to the BOD unanimously agreeing to the BSR implementation.

2. The inclusion of the Wingsuit First Flight Syllabus into the SIM was discussed during the WS Subcommittees meeting. All WSers involved sat down the following morning to conduct a scrub on the document and make appropriate changes prior to it's being submitted back to the subcommittee for review and inclusion into the SIM.

3. Three different presentations were heard on WS formations by the competition subcommittee. Pros and Cons to the existing system, modifications that could be made as well as alternate systems were discussed. This concluded with the existing system remaining in place with modifications to be made until such time as the system and the community show the USPA that it needs further refinement or that it is no longer applicable for judging records.

From this, the idea of holding an open forum discussion with the WSing community as a whole was brought up and F&D 6.0 was mentioned but agreed that it did not allow enough time for a lot of people who could not make it or had not planned on it, to attend. From further discussion with the competition subcommittee, the proposal of a USPA representative to mediate any such gathering was brought up. Bill W. elected that BJ Worth, along with the WSers in attendance, be that individual based on his past experience with dealing with matters of this very nature in the sport.

The idea and intent for this is to allow for a transparent and unbiased look at all sides of the matter as well as educate a member of the USPA on all the different ideas and sides of the issue to make a better informed decision in the future. This will also allow for an open forum where neither side feels that the other has an unfair advantage or is not allowed to present their ideas/views. It also puts someone in charge of controlling the discussion and keeping it civil as we have seen recently, emotions on this matter run hot.

At this time, that meeting will be at the next BOD meeting which will be in Boston. However, that does not prevent the proposed meeting at F&D from occurring. This item will be put on the agenda (as I am sure it may/might change) well in advance to give all USPA members enough time to put it on their calendar and make travel arrangements.


I think that covers the one over the world eye view of it. If I missed something I am sure one of the others will chime in.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Buried 0]

There's an option to start anew but not this time around with what was presented at the BOD. We have interest and support of a new judging system once there is more consensus in the community and we can compare what is out there. For the time bring, everyone involved took steps to tighten the requirements. Are they perfect no, not at all. Are they better than what we've had the last 7 months? yes. As said, the new method will help fix some issues we see today and push people in a direction of flying better.

There are other methods out there today. some can be combined to make new ones and others may appear. This year is a year of applying ALL these methods together to any formations that are done and discuss the pros and cons of them all and see which direction to go. If ready, we will have time at the next BOD in July to discuss these and provide a direction or directions where we want to focus on more. Fnd is just the start of these discussions. There SHOULD be a few discussions taken place before the July BOD anyhow.

We probably won't see another change for the next year. Winter BOD meetings are the best time to change competition and record rules. I know there are quite a few people who want to see a single point of reference measurement and we can probably get there in time. We'd all need to talk about this more.

the 'new' standard will probably not work with the frenchie picture because of the angle and how some people 'appear' to be overlapping eachother. I will say it will work with recent red bull flying that was nice and close.

*edit i'll try to fill more in later

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Does anyone know what were the slight modifications?

- the height (head to foot, not ws tail) of the base flyer must meet or exceed 27% of the height of the flying box. Updated grid to include height markings will be available on USPA website.

-flyer must be 100% within grid space

Is the "grid space" the outer box, the inner box, or has the double box been eliminated?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Birdman_Mike 0]

Thanks for bringing this photo up Matt. This is a photo of a nine way diamond that we completed at Flock and Dock in March 2007. At the time, I don't believe that a more perfect nine way diamond had been completed. I think that this photo looks great and should pass the record test. Can anyone confirm that it does or does not pass?

I would also like to see if the famous Lodi 16 way of May 2008 passes the new record test. However, I do not have a photo. Possibly, Avery or Ed has a photo of this jump.

I am glad that everyone is working together cooperatively to make the judging system better for all

Purple Mike

Quote

Quote

I wonder if this would now count as a world record?
Frenchies.
Could someone judge this with the new rules?

There is WAY too much spherical distortion in that photo to even fully understand what's going on. (a problem that still exists with all grid/photo methods)

Moreover, it appears they are flying very tight which would make most grids invalid if you're not allowed to overlap squares (similar to this one).

[The111 0]

Quote

Thanks for bringing this photo up Matt. This is a photo of a nine way diamond that we completed at Flock and Dock in March 2007. At the time, I don't believe that a more perfect nine way diamond had been completed. I think that this photo looks great and should pass the record test. Can anyone confirm that it does or does not pass?

I don't know exactly how the new criteria works, but assuming it requires a photo from directly above, you can't test the photo in question using that criteria.

Which, along with spherical distortion, is another flaw that will NEVER go away from any grid-type solution. There is no way to center yourself perfectly as a photographer, and no way for the photo viewer to verify precisely where it was taken from.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[peggs82 0]

Quote

I know the summerfest one does not for sure and that was the cleanest one out there

it dosen't??

The 2nd black line was added at the 27%, and what I confirmed my measurements of jeff on...(head to foot - not tail wing)

25way2 is to confirm my scaling
25way3 is the successful grid placement.

So while it worked really well with the 25% (less sliding), on the arguable best formation to date, we still see that it does work (albeit more sliding) at 27%.