Moved to it's own thread:Dressing for success in wingsuit formations.

[mccordia 73]

The docked 3,4, 5 ways Ive been in all had variable weights, sizes and suit models.
If numbers in the hundreds are the aim...forget it..
But dowsizing or upsizing suits isnt something needed or should be worried about..
Its mostly practice and increasing skills..

JC
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[JohanW 0]

Quote

The docked 3,4, 5 ways Ive been in all had variable weights, sizes and suit models.
If numbers in the hundreds are the aim...forget it..
But dowsizing or upsizing suits isnt something needed or should be worried about..
Its mostly practice and increasing skills..

Why would 'dress for success' not be applicable to wingsuit formations, just as it is for CRW-formations?

(Yes, I said CRW, not RW. Exercise for the student ..)

Johan.
I am. I think.

[mccordia 73]

That is exactly what I said johan...

You suggesting a 120 kg guy wear the same size wingsuit as the 50 kg guy?
The 5 way line often quoted had 4 guys of around 80 kg, flying an SM1, XS, Sfly Expert, Blade and (smaller lady) acro together. And James also joined one of the several 4.5 person lines we flew that day in an acro.

Different sized suits, and weights dont have to be an issue.
Docked formations are a seperate dicipline, we need to practice and experiment in...not one to dumb down before we've even tried properly..

JC
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[JohanW 0]

Oh sorry, no, I did not read that into it.

What I think I read into it (but I've had coffee since ) was that nobody should be up- or downsizing to make the formation fly better together, that that should be solved by skill.

I thought you were suggesting everybody fly the same suit, sized with their body of course.

No offence, glad to have it out in the open, and I should have known better than suggest you would be suggesting everybody fly the same suit. You'd be the last one on Earth to do that .. sorry!

Johan.
I am. I think.

[mccordia 73]

Its three subjects being mixed here

Flying a suit sized for flying with each other in the same performance envelope. Based on height and weight, size will vary.

Everybody (together) flying the smallest suit possible, to downgrade flying, and fly together easier. Which is a silly thing, which inst needed at all. Though exactly what we see in big ways (non linked as well), with higher fall rates than needed/possible. which is related to the next thing:

The often heard urging for smaller suits, more related to the fact that people seem to rather fly a big one at 50% of its performance than, an adequate sized suit (for that formation/speed) at 80% or higher.

JC
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[JohanW 0]

Yes, mixing those things does make the discussion complicated. So I'll only argue point 3 here now. Not saying you're wrong, asking the question.

For RW we wear lead until the middle of our (own) neutral fallrate matches the formation fallrate. We do this so we have maneuvering margin. Why would we, in WRW, sacrifice possible maneuvering margin?

Again, not saying it's a bad thing, but why would we do that? For the pictures? To require skill? To make sure you can't do it without a wingsuit? (Esp. the last one actually seems reasonable.)

Next question, how much? 50%? 80%? No bent legs? No arching? No lead? No wings?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Costyn 0]

I have to agree with Johan here. It sure is nice to have extra margin for when you need it to keep flying your slot. If you're already flying 80% and need 25% to keep flying your slot, you're fuxxored.

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[mccordia 73]

Let me exagurate my point..

When you see me fly a Stealth2, and next to me is a guy of the same body size/weight do the same thing in an Acro2. Do I REALLLLLY need that suit to have 'some' margin.

Johan is ALWAYS the one bitching about the performance after landing...you are always marketing your S3S over the nearly double sized suits. Now you're saying you're wrong, and the big tarps are always justified?

The margin needed for each person to comfortably fly may be a debate on its own we shouldnt have here. But to not stray from the point.

Downsizing suits to make flying in docked formations easier (which is what kallend seems to hint at), is 100% not needed.
As long as everyone flies in the same performance envelope, going smaller is silly.

JC
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[mccordia 73]

With myself also being the culprit for the thread-drift. Could we move discussions on docked formations, and suitable suit sizes etc. to the corresponding thread?

As otherwise things get a bit hard to follow..
Dont know if a mod could cut/paste these last few messages there?

JC
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[DSE 3]

Quote

Downsizing suits to make flying in docked formations easier (which is what kallend seems to hint at), is 100% not needed.
As long as everyone flies in the same performance envelope, going smaller is silly.

This is kinda my original point. You have a guy that flies a tarp even though he doesn't weigh much. You have a very heavy guy that flies an old small suit that's all he can afford. They're both at the extremes of their performance envelope. While the guy in the tarp is trying to keep down with the guy in the small/old suit, they're likely doing to be negatively affecting each other once grips are taken.
I don't think the performance envelope should/could be put into any "rule system" but does need to be a consideration if you're organizing a docked flock. Much like wingloading for CRW and weightbelts for RW. Neutralizing fall rates is going to become a reasonably important consideration, isn't it?

[mccordia 73]

again..part of the docked formation thread...
But yes...this is 100% the same as lead in FS/RW/FF formations. Fly a sensible suit, sized for the performance you have to fly with your body-size.

But again...no need for a collective down-grade to make things easier. Just fine-tune it to eachother. And as shown in the small lines formations so far, there is quite a bit of stretch possible in terms of what you fly, and how big/small you are.

JC
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[kallend 1,621]

If docked formations become the norm, expect to see suits designed specifically for it, that allow complete freedom of arm movement (like Tony's intro suit), minimize the effect on speed when arm and leg docks are taken, etc. In other words, flying performance will be sacrificed to the goal of making docks easy.

A few weeks ago I asked the question, how is a wingsuit formation defined. Seems we need a definition to stop a regression into RW.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 73]

The definition is one that needs to be worked out, as so far the descriptions presented are all very open to interpetation.

And docked formation will become A norm at some point.
Be it now or in 5 years. And I seriously dont see the need to adapt the designs for that. Again its a matter of skill and practice.

But rightfully so, needing a proper definition and norm to stop regression into normal freefall from becoming the norm.

A similar problem we had the first year in the artistic competition we ran, as did the Birdman challange in Swiss.
Arched freefall was rewarded, by faster/easier docks, and thus more points.

But with a simple set of rules/definitions (related to a score for 'style', meaing smoothness, bodyposition, flying, cleanness of docks etc) a focus on actual flying was forced.

And trying to come up with a certain performance envelope everyone needs to fly within, is one of the key challenges indeed.

Which leads to an interesting question.

Should we maybe rate wingsuit formations (docked and non-linked) based on style/performance, much like we rate Freefly/Freestyle in the ARTISTIC diciplines?

A non-gripped formation flown 5 seconds, at shitty fallrates and fwd speed. How does it compare to exactly the same spacing, yet rock-solid for a full 3 minutes, with 2.5 glide ratios.
It wont rate higher based on the slots/judging positioning.

Should the judging maybe also include something akin to points for style?

JC
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[pilotdave 0]

I think you guys put way too much emphasis on figuring all this stuff out instead of letting it happen naturally. A while back, I predicted that there will eventually be an ideal wingsuit wingloading for formations. Wingsuiters will buy wings appropriate to their bodies and some will wear weights. Just look at CRW... Jumpers on large formations all use the same model of canopy. It's not a coincidence, it's a requirement. Different disciplines within CRW use different types of canopies at different wingloadings.

Wingsuiters will figure this stuff out over time. There will be different suits for bigway formations and distance and docked formations and whatever else. There already are a wide variety of suits of course, but everybody uses whatever they have for whatever they're doing.

You guys will figure this stuff out. Don't freak out... you don't need all the answers in 2010.

Dave

[mccordia 73]

Quote

You guys will figure this stuff out. Don't freak out... you don't need all the answers in 2010.

I think thats actually what everyone is hopefully realising as well.
As we where getting close to current ideas and conventions determiniing the standard for years to come...while its 100% sure, this will all evolve by practice, and years of just flying..

But even than...it never hurts to debate a little bit...
I for sure think this is more constuctive than the eternal 'do I reaaaallly need 200 jumps' discussion, or 'when will jeb land'

JC
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[mnskydiver688 0]

How many people capable of RW formations exist in the world? How many people were involved in the world record for RW?

How many people capable of wingsuit formations exist in the world? How many people were involved in the world record for WS?

Are the ratios anywhere close? If so I will not bring it up again... However, a discussion involving the definition and guidelines to formations is a moot point if there aren't those to create the formations. So where should our priorities be placed?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[bodypilot1 0]

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How many people capable of RW formations exist in the world? How many people were involved in the world record for RW?

I was....

Quote

How many people capable of wingsuit formations exist in the world? How many people were involved in the world record for WS?

I was....

Quote

Are the ratios anywhere close? If so I will not bring it up again... However, a discussion involving the definition and guidelines to formations is a moot point if there aren't those to create the formations. So where should our priorities be placed?

I have always suggested future, or current ws pilots should learn basic formation skydiving, before getting into wingsuits. It allows basic formation skills to be developed, which traslated into wingsuits, but adding the forward flight.
It also helps them to know when they are flying a ws that is "too much", or "too little" for the type of flying they are doing, such as large formation flying.
Yes, several suits will be need for those that want to change things up, as one suit will not be enough for all the differnt styles of ws flying, IMO.
For those that think one suit IS enough, smart choices of, whom they are flying with (judging body sizes, weights and dive plans) will be a key skill they will need to develope, or dives will fail to work out as they expected.
This is one of the reasons Team Ill Vision formations consist some several different sizes of suits. Phantoms, Ghosts and Stealths are just some of the suits we fly on any given formation. Flying with other team mates often lets us develope the skills to identify the correct suit for the different body sizes and weight.
This skill is something I also teach in my advanced ws training course.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[notsane 0]

I honestly don't see how more experience is going to make it possible to get the grips needed to make a docked diamond in a typical wingsuit. A small wingsuit is still a wingsuit.

[hjumper33 0]

A very small wingsuit is a camera suit. I feel like there might be a need for a both horizontal speed requirements for a record.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I honestly don't see how more experience is going to make it possible

Show a 400 way RW formation photo to Leo Valentin during his efforts to just fall stable, and he'd say the same thing

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

A very small wingsuit is a camera suit. I feel like there might be a need for a both horizontal speed requirements for a record.

Sure, if you can not make that you are just a small bird, not a hawk....

I fly a Stealth and its still fun and challenge to fly formation with someone in a (PF) tracking suit or a hybrid like Access.

[notsane 0]

I think you guys are missing the point. With everyone's arms swept back, it's not possible for the tail person in a docked diamond to get grips without having his face on the lead guys ass. Lines and stairsteps aren't the path to large docked formations.

[mccordia 73]

Most current suits allow a straight arm position.
Variable jumper height is the bigger issue..actually trying this stuff is going to be a better and much more fun way to experiment with all this..

JC
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[lurch 0]

Scott.... you sure about that?
Thing I keep thinking of is a double or triple stairstep... Its the reason we tried a few weird side dock grips last year.
Basically imagine an 8-way docked diamond. Hollow in the middle. I think it could be done with knee or wing root grips. Thered be some wing overlap but thats ok.

Lead bird's left hand grips left bird's shoulder/leading edge.
Left bird grips lead bird's trailing edge.
2nd left bird copies 1st left bird's grip.
3rd left bird gets tricky. This bird goes inside so you got to have a knee or ankle grip in there. Probably ankle. 3rd left's right hand has shoulder grip on stinger.
Stinger has room to fly cause theres no center.
Repeat sequence on right side.
Only major problem is making it work with an ankle grip. Gotta be flying maxed out or it'll get bumpy like when we tried it.
Now all we gotta do is figure out how to fly the formation around those two ankle grips. The rest, we've already tested and proven workable. Whaddya think?
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[hjumper33 0]

Quote

[
Sure, if you can not make that you are just a small bird, not a hawk....
I fly a Stealth and its still fun and challenge to fly formation with someone in a (PF) tracking suit or a hybrid like Access.

Thats fine and im sure very fun, but if someone with a tracking suit can stay up with what we are calling a WS world record, it kind of takes some of the point out of it. Im pretty split on the whole flocking vs. non flocking issue. I agree with Tony and Yuri that these suits are meant to fly, and nothing to me in the world is more fun than a ws base jump off a huge cliff in the back country. I also enjoy flocking with large groups and have been lucky to be on some cool stuff at lodi. Im torn weather to be excited by this thread or mindlessly bored.