FAI, Wingsuits, and the Grid

[mccordia 73]

The 71 way had no official record title, yet had bigger attendance, and the same sense of acomplishment during the event for everyone there. And the lack of official validation didnt prevent anyone ftom claiming it as a 'world record' either.
And it got everyone exited.

The grid didnt do a thing. YOU GUYS DID!
Organising it, getting people exited, doing great stuff.
In fact, the sometimes iffy validation was the only negative thing about it all.
Saying the grid was the source of all things good is severly underselling all the organisers energy, enthousiasm, skill and effort. And looking at the grid in a way to close and personal way.

Give yourself a little more credit..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

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Remember how you told me you had given your smaller canopy to your rigger, and told him, "Keep this away from me until I am really once again ready for it" ---

Maybe I voted "No" with that story in mind...

Thanks for looking out for my best interests. I think the 40 wingsuit jumps I'd knocked out in the 2 weeks previous to the bigway had me more qualified than several of the people you had voted "yes" for.

Bottom line: I didn't/don't support the grid, but I do support wingsuiting. I was there in Elsinore, did the jumps before hand, and was flying fine. I was there to jump, spent the money, effort, and wanted the TShirt. S'all good, tho.
[edit[

The 73 way record is still a 73 way record. It matters more than the 68 way in that it was about the people, about the heart and soul they put into it. The 68 way is still a USPA record, even after the grid is redacted and repealed. It's still an amazing event.

[SwampGod 0]

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Maybe if you, as one of those in the "dark and windy day" meeting had let some wingsuiters know what was going on...but then again, aren't you on the board of Raise The Sky? If so, I do understand the need for secrecy.
...
Maybe that's what you and Raise the Sky forgot about. It's about the people, not a picture object that isn't objective.

DSE, et al - I'm not quite sure what to make of these two comments, but they don't seem good. I apologize for the thread drift, but as a board member of Raise the Sky I cannot let statements like this go unanswered.

I believe there are a series of misunderstandings at work. I know the organizers and proponents of the grid listen and incorporate the ideas of others more than they publicize. I'm sure there are things misunderstood about the proposal from the Netherlands, as well. It is not the purpose of this post to clear up those misunderstandings, though.

Though it may not be apparent, there is a difference between Raise the Sky and "the grid." I understand the confusion, as most of the board members of Raise the Sky are accomplished wingsuit pilots, and a couple were directly involved in the Elsinore record. As a facilitator of events, registration and frequently asked questions have been funneled through the website.

However, I am but a wingsuit newbie. My participation in the Wingsuit Record was part of a deep commitment to bring skydiving and charity together. I'm currently working on a tunnel event, with the hopeful goal of getting kids to actually fly as well. You'll hopefully see tunnel registration and event FAQs start to appear for tunnel flying on the Raise the Sky website, as well.

I know many consider skydiving to be a self-indulgent activity. My hope is that the things we do can benefit others, both in terms of financial support, but also by showing people with little hope that anything is possible.

"If we can fly, you can graduate," was not just a catchy phrase. I truly believe being honest with children about my own fears (I don't like "low" heights) can help them face theirs.

So far I have spent far more money than I ever expect to see and received no fame, but will continue to work hard bolstered on by many people saying "thank you," and the idea that there is good to be found in this world that I would like to be a part of.

I have come too late to the party to know or understand the entire story. It is clear there is some bad blood.

Please do not let wingsuit bad blood spill into an organization that I truly believe is working for good.

Thank you all for your time.

-eli

[parachutist 1]

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For what it's worth, I need to go on record as one of those who does not like "the grid". My reasons are many, and they've all been presented in this thread.

As far as I can see, the largest wingsuit formation record stands at 5, with grips, like every other skydiving discipline. I don't understand the rush to reach 100 and I think "the grid" makes us a laughingstock by granting us "special consideration" that we don't need grips.

That's the end of my discussion on the topic.

IMHO

Scott

I'm on the same page here. Flying near others is great fun, however I see docked formations as requiring much more skill, and being more worthy of record status.

Chris

[PhoenixRising 0]

I'd like to (and will) propose a wingsuit symposium at Flock n' Dock to discuss how we as a community want to achieve competition scoring and judging. From there, we might have at the least a direction that the USPA and other countries might test. In the aftermath of the past three days, the USPA has become painfully aware of the error that occurred in July.
I'm very glad this issue is being discussed. There are some brilliant minds out there. Hopefully we can gather them at Flock n' Dock and have some productive discussion rather than counter productive dismissal of each other's ideas. Crystal, L, grid, point to point, elastic broomstick, whatever... a solid discussion over cases of beer are called for.
I'll buy the first two cases and bring the pizza.

Now that is a plan!

Wingsuit organizing, first flight courses and coaching
Flock University
Tonysuits

[mccordia 73]

Great idea...
Ill be there Scott :)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

A huge accusation is being brought to the people opposing the grid, by claiming that they wish to stop wingsuiting from progressing.
I personally am very offended by such statements!
This is simply not true!! We all wish to see wingsuiting grow and reach new heights, but we want to see this done the right way. We wish to see the whole community have an opportunity to get involved. Nobody ever asked for input on the grid rules. They were just given. This is it, deal with it. Some tried to offer some input and were either not listened to (the less vocal ones), or told to fuck off (those more vocal ones). These people are not trying to steal anyone's organizer slot. They are not trying to stop bigway events from happening. They are simply volunteering some intelligent input on a method that obviously needs to be worked on, and acknowledging that there is much work left to be done, and we are not as close to being "done" as we think.

We also need to separate stuff related to Raise The Sky, charities, good deeds from the grid as a judging method. One has nothing to do with the other. It wasn't the grid that enabled us to help a bunch of kids in need with a $5k donation towards their education. It was the people: the organizers, the participants, everyone who collaborated and worked hard, donated money. We didn't donate money for the sake of the grid. We didn't fly that formation for the grid. Some of us didn't even believe much in the grid at all. Yet we still flew with the same passion. And we're ready to do it again, no matter what happens with the grid system.

So let's not try to influence people's opinions about the grid by talking about Raise The Sky and wonderful charities. It's apples and oranges.

The fact that we had some amazing formation jumps in Elsinore doesn't mean that the grid is a successful method and ready to be implemented soon, given the list of flaws we have all seen. The way that formation was flown could be judged in many ways.

Do I think the grid is ready for just a year of patching up and then it can then be implemented worldwide in 2011? Absolutely not!! We won't even have another US national record attempt until maybe later in 2011!
Until now you were able to shut me up by saying "well, it's the only method we've got and it's the best we've got, so we might as well push for it". Sorry but that's no longer the case. We have seen various methods of judging emerge, and there are still a few I've heard of that are in the works that haven't been presented to the public yet. A lot of these alternative methods show a lot of potential because they address specific problems that the grid suffers from. Nobody's saying to stop wingsuit records from happening. We're just saying that perhaps it's time to think outside the gridbox for a while, evaluate some alternatives, too, and not rush things too much.

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encourage everyone who is reading this from the sidelines, everyone who has enjoyed this past year - A year of RECORDS, a year of ACCOMPLISHMENT, a year of PRIDE to let the USPA know just what the Grid has done for Wingsuiting.

The grid has't done shit. The organizers and the participants did it all, as Jarno also pointed out.
As far as I'm concerned, it could have been any method of judging, you could've measured the Elsinore formation by the color coordination of everyone's underwear, I still would've supported the events with my participation. The accomplishments were possible because there were a whole bunch of people willing to work hard and fly together as a team. Not because of the grid.
I am proud to have flown in a beautiful looking 68way formation. I am not really proud that I was inside my grid box. That doesn't really do much for me.

I remember being in that debrief room in Elsinore. The emotions that were shared when we watched the video of the record formation were incredible. But that didn't come from seeing the grid on the picture or hearing that the USPA judge has successfully placed a grid on there. It came from watching an entire video and seeing a beautiful formation flown consistently that just showed what amazing things we were able to accomplish as a team.
The grid only added uncertainty at times, as we were unsure of when exactly we had a record, and how much more we would have to improve it.

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Tell them about the number of events you participated in, where you traveled to DZs to be a part of USPA records. Tell them about the skills camps you participated in which made you better skydivers.

You think the skills camps made us better skydivers due to the grid and the occasional state record?
I never learned a damn thing from the grid. I learned by listening to and flying with great fliers like yourself, Justin, Jarno, Jeff N., Scott Calantine, Scott Bland, Purple Mike, and many others (I'm sure I'm forgetting a few important names who have played a major role and I'm gonna feel stupid about it later, but you get the point).

At the larger scale, there is a big difference between the GRID and the big achievements we've seen in wingsuiting. We are just maturing as a discipline, we are seeing great progress from one year to the next, and who knows how much more progress we are going to see in the coming years. It is not the grid that governs it, it's the flyers, the improved skills, the load organizers that push people to do incredible things. With or without a grid. We all want this progress! Even those that yell "fuck the grid!" or "end gridlock".

With or without the grid, we are not stopping any of the momentum our discipline has achieved. People will keep flying, and skills will get better and better. I'll happily fly on anyone's formation, to test any kind of judging method.
We should still work hard as a community to refine our judging standards and accomplish bigger and bigger achievements.
But we need to understand that having a solid judging method is just icing on the cake. First we have the great accomplishments, then the judging method that simply looks at the flying and rates it. We don't want to have a standard that then locks us in. The method should model our flying, instead of our flying being adapted to the method. That's one of the biggest reasons why I and others have issues with the grid. It's nothing personal. It's not meant to discredit anyone's achievements. We want the achievements to be recognized. We also want to think ahead and make sure we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot as far as future bigger achievements are concerned.

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The train is rolling....yes...we finally have momentum. Keep it up.

You know, trains rolling are a great thing, but sometimes if a train rolls too fast it can derail.
We don't wish to stop any train. We just want to make sure it's going at the right speed.

Keep the wigsuit flying train rolling, but keep your minds open, too!

Just look at the multitude of judging methods that are emerging out of all this! Past all the drama and the politics, we are seeing a lot of progress here: there are many new creative ideas that only emerged over the past few weeks, and they are just waiting to be tested and explored. There are many skills waiting to be developed and pushed to new levels. That is the true train here, let's keep it rolling the right way!

[SuperGirl 0]

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As far as I can see, the largest wingsuit formation record stands at 5, with grips, like every other skydiving discipline.

oh, man! your post combined with Jarno's other thread on docked formations begs for the following question to be asked:

Assume we are doing a ws boogie in some state where the current wingsuit state record is small (like a 4way or nothing set yet)

And we get, say, a 6way docked line.
And it's kinda curved and wobbly so it wouldn't fit the grid.

Is that a valid state record?

I mean... It doesn't fit the grid. But it's DOCKED.

Ahh, the irony :)

[kallend 1,621]

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I'd like to (and will) propose a wingsuit symposium at Flock n' Dock to discuss how we as a community want to achieve competition scoring and judging. From there, we might have at the least a direction that the USPA and other countries might test. In the aftermath of the past three days, the USPA has become painfully aware of the error that occurred in July.
I'm very glad this issue is being discussed. There are some brilliant minds out there. Hopefully we can gather them at Flock n' Dock and have some productive discussion rather than counter productive dismissal of each other's ideas. Crystal, L, grid, point to point, elastic broomstick, whatever... a solid discussion over cases of beer are called for.
I'll buy the first two cases and bring the pizza.

Now that is a plan!

That weekend is my wedding anniversary, no way I'll be able to attend.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[feuergnom 22]

DSE - our one and only hero. what would the skydiving world be without you????

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[medusa 0]

Don't blame me.

I voted for pedro!!

Cya

Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

[piisfish 135]

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There are two presentations.
One is the USPA (as advertised in the OP).
The other is from the Dutch/Netherlands. It doesn't affect the USPA (unless the FAI accepts it as a method, which they likely won't).

In the face of an FAI presentation of the grid, an actual "alternative" must be presented if for no other reason than to counter the grid system as it now stands.

is it just me, or does it look like a new turn in "The Brands War" ? To my uneducated eyes, it looks like a Birdman Vs. the rest of the world...I might be very wrong, and I hope I am. But to me this it what it looks like.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mccordia 73]

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DSE - our one and only hero. what would the skydiving world be without you????

Jumping the wrong videocamera, messing with editing suites and not getting AVCHD to work, and having nobody else stand up, and say the things most people are to chicken shit to say out loud.....most likely...?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[feuergnom 22]

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DSE - our one and only hero. what would the skydiving world be without you????

Jumping the wrong videocamera, messing with editing suites and not getting AVCHD to work, and having nobody else stand up, and say the things most people are to chicken shit to say out loud.....most likely...?

the loudest are not necessarily the wisest men in the crowd

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Zeemax 0]

I've kept pretty quiet during this thread (unlike me!), but i've got to comment again after seeing an email that's floating around.

It's come from you Phil, but looks like it was initially from Taya (her web address is on the bottom).

I've got to say that the whole thing is nothing short of scandalous propaganda, with a number of well written misleading lines in it.

Reading it has genuinely made me embarrassed to call myself a wingsuit flyer. Seriously, it is so petulant, there's no wonder the rest of the skydiving community don't take us seriously.

Genuine question, what difference does it make to the USPA if the FAI accept the grid or not? How, if at all, will FAI acceptance or not of the grid based system affect USPA records?

After reading the email, it really does leave me thinking that the person writing it has missed the point entirely and are trying to create a 'them vs us' mentality. The Dutch proposal is not like the grid. It is NOT asking for immediate acceptance of a system without wider consultation.

It's completely opposite in fact. The proposal is saying that we need to WAIT to implement a system and actually figure out exactly what the wider community want, not a small minority trying to bull dozer their system in.

I honestly couldn't care what system we ultimately use to judge things, but I do feel VERY strongly about a small group of people pushing something forward that doesn't have the majority support of those of us taking part in the sport.

Also, we are of course very vocal on this forum, and I know there is only a minority of actual participants who actively take part in discussions, but I ask again, why is no one from the grid based system making their points here?

Why are they using email to spread their one sided propaganda where all replies can be censored?

For those who have not yet seen the email, I will PM it to anyone who wants to read it, but again, the terminology used is extremely misleading, so if you're an intelligent person who can see both sides of the fence, be prepared to not like it.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[LouDiamond 1]

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There are two presentations.
One is the USPA (as advertised in the OP).
The other is from the Dutch/Netherlands. It doesn't affect the USPA (unless the FAI accepts it as a method, which they likely won't).

In the face of an FAI presentation of the grid, an actual "alternative" must be presented if for no other reason than to counter the grid system as it now stands.

is it just me, or does it look like a new turn in "The Brands War" ? To my uneducated eyes, it looks like a Birdman Vs. the rest of the world...I might be very wrong, and I hope I am. But to me this it what it looks like.

I'll clear things up a bit for you then. This is not a Birdman vs anybody. Like myself, Jari wishes for there to be recognized records but all of the hoopla that has unfolded is not coming from Birdman. It is coming from the individuals that have either identified themselves here,in e-mails or stood in front of a governing body claiming misleadingly to have support from both the wingsuiting community as well as all the manufacturers. This is coming from select groups of people that have decided they know what is best for the sport and I am not singling out any one group of people or persons, it involves all of them.

Make no mistake, this has everything to do with those individuals involved in their select groups and the agendas they are trying to bulldoze through(on both sides). As anyone can see that has read this thread, it also involves a lot of bad blood,egos and bragging rights among other things.

While I am sure everyone involved on all sides will claim to have good intentions be it for the sport, the world,etc, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and we are well on our way there if we as a community continue down this road with all the infighting, back stabbing, pettiness, hypocrisy and ego driven agendas.

It's just skydiving, it's supposed to be fun.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

In Reply To
You can do that, while at the same time discussing who could IMPROVE this and that part of his flying.

And in this context is where the value in *any* debriefing system, be it a bunch of lines on a screen, software that shows lines, or drawing lines through a piece of paper, scanning it, and putting up on a screen is invaluable; it allows each person to see their position in any given moment in time, and make adjustments to their perception of the sight picture, approach, etc.

Piisfish, I can understand why it would appear that it's "Birdman" against the world but in truth, it's not. It's just that Birdman happened to be willing to give their mailing list to the "pro-grid" folks. But not all Birdman flyers are in support of the grid. fact. Many are not. One person from that list sent this email out to the USPA and copied me on it. Pity he's not a member of the USPA. Even more unfortunate is an email that went out to hundreds of non-wingsuiters asking them to submit their opinion on the grid. I would never deign to tell CRW, FF, FS, or Freestyle people how their discipline should be judged, because I know nothing about those disciplines.
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It's almost funny how the "grid people" are making emotional appeals about an unemotional subject.
Screaming about gag orders, unfair, vocal minority, and dissenters rather than talking about the issues just shows why others don't like/want the grid.

The grid is subjective, not objective. Judging and measurement should always be objective. A meter is a meter, and that's that. But not with the grid. A meter might be 1.2 meters or .8 meters, depending on who is doing the measuring.

The grid people refuse to talk about the merits of the grid. They only appeal to the emotions of others.

The non-grid people simply say that;
A judging system for wingsuits is premature. (I believe they're correct)
The grid is fundamentally flawed in that it doesn't allow for most types of wingsuit skydiving to be judged. (It's obvious they're correct)
The grid system allows for low-quality formations to become "records." (this is subjective and to be ignored, although their Illinois record had one guy with 8 wingsuit jumps as a participant)
The grid system has never been presented to, nor allowed to be commented on, by the very people it judges. (This seems apparent, based on the many posts on DZ.com)

My father told me that when one cannot debate facts, a weak argument will center on character or personality. This is why I've changed my opinion of the grid system. A week ago, I wouldn't have commented on the grid system. But the grid supporters are sending these wild accusations about the non-grid people that any sensible mind knows are not true and cannot be true, not if you have any concept of how the IPC functions.

Use your head people. Find out the truth. Figure things out for yourself.

Sorry for the earlier version, copy/paste on a blackberry doesn't work as easily as it should.

[Costyn 0]

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While I am sure everyone involved on all sides will claim to have good intentions be it for the sport, the world,etc, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and we are well on our way there if we as a community continue down this road with all the infighting, back stabbing, pettiness, hypocrisy and ego driven agendas.

It's just skydiving, it's supposed to be fun.

Agreed, it would be much more fun if everyone agreed on everything and there was peace on earth. Unfortunately, I don't think we'd get much done in that case, as we'd all agree on the first thing that came by and we'd still be bashing rocks on antilopes' heads to get our food.

In any case different people have different ideas on how to best solve a problem. Some of those people have worked very hard on their idea and feel very strongly that their idea is the best solution. In defending their idea people will do many of the things you listed. It's just human nature and I think it's part of the process and I don't think we're on the road to hell.

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[Skwrl 56]

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While I am sure everyone involved on all sides will claim to have good intentions be it for the sport, the world,etc, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and we are well on our way there if we as a community continue down this road with all the infighting, back stabbing, pettiness, hypocrisy and ego driven agendas.

It's just skydiving, it's supposed to be fun.

+1

[The following was an email I sent to a few friends.]

However, in reading [this] whole thread, it makes me even more certain that I will abstain from all bigway attempts going forward. Doesn't matter whose proposal is adopted - or if none of them are. I have a spotless record of being on no bigway "records" (wasn't even on the Mass. record, by design) and I'm definitely keeping it that way. Fuck. This. Shit.

The tempest in a teapot with this shit is absurd. I jump because wingsuiting fills my life with a lot of joy and takes me out of the world of petty bullshit stuff. Why are we, as a community, creating so much more of it? Why are we all so eager to create drama? This is not directed at Scott (I appreciated his post), but it's hilariously awesome that everyone involved in this discussion vociferously argues their position and how critically important it is that their approach be adopted, and then ends the post with, "Oh, but I just like to jump..." Well, no - or else your panties wouldn't be in such a twist over the subject.

I once got involved in a project relating to wingsuiting because it was about safety - or at least I thought it was. I care about safety, because when we fuck that up we lose brothers and sisters in our sport who are dear to us. All of this? This is about egos. On all sides.

And I hope that whatever we do as a community, we'll grow the numbers of people who actively enjoy wingsuiting as I do. But I don't think we are doing ourselves a service with all of the infighting. At one point I thought otherwise, but I've sobered up for a change.

For clarity, I am speaking in my individual capacity only. And I realize I have alienated both camps in saying this. Boo fucking hoo. I'm spiffy with that result since you're all being idiots on this subject.

Seriously - we jump out of fucking airplanes with nylon wings on, fly for miles, and usually don't get killed doing so. Isn't that awesome enough?

[Edited to fix poor grammar.]

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[kallend 1,621]

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From an email rec'd last night>

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It's almost funny how the "grid people" are making emotional appeals about an unemotional subject.
Screaming about gag orders, unfair, vocal minority, and dissenters rather than talking about the issues just shows why others don't like/want the grid.

The grid is subjective, not objective. Judging and measurement should always be objective. A meter is a meter, and that's that. But not with the grid. A meter might be 1.2 meters or .8 meters, depending on who is doing the measuring.

Does any other system under consideration use absolute length measurements? The one you enthused about at Elsinore didn't.

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The grid system allows for low-quality formations to become "records." (this is subjective and to be ignored, although their Illinois record had one guy with 8 wingsuit jumps as a participant)

What does the number of jumps have to do with the quality of a skydive? Can you look at the Illinois formation and identify the low number participant?

[mccordia 73]

We have an FAI presentation, which only shows the need and intend to work on ANY community based, WORKING judging standard. Not caring for one bit who's, as long as its a working one.

'get something out there now, and fix it later' is an approach I hope no gear manufacturer wants to adopt.
The whole creation of 'camps' is nonsense, as EVERY proposal, once fully matured (the concept and people proposing it), STILL has a 100% chance at acceptance.

Just not this coming week, as that would be (blunt force trauma style) pushing one proposal through, by hiding its shortcomings and not looking beyond the horizon for better things.

Marylou (USPA FAI rep) called, and said she also wants to give the FAI a work scedule for a future proposition, instead of pushing for immidiate acceptance, which is what we intend to do and ask for. Certain people didnt agree, and as a result, wont be presenting.
Nothing but praise for the recent actions, allowing a more senseable work-scedule, instead of rushed and incomplete.

As long as the USPA is wrestling with the system, and forced to accept a 7 way formation over a valid 8 way record, it clearly shows the system needs more work.

There are several processes going on at the same time, and one seems to mix a lot of them up deliberately to discredit certain people, and tearing a community appart.

Whats the rush?
The lack of an official status didnt serm to give the 2008 bigway attempt ANY other status over the 2009 one. And if the 'official' tag (which the same group of people was offended by in 2008) is the thing thats worth ignoring and drnying a whole community input, and having a say in rules that affect us all (when it comes to FAI), than do your thing.

The lack of an official standard is not worth loosing friends, not smiling, not enjoying flying, donating to charity or organising events. If it is, re-evaluate why you're doing all this..

Dont stress and rush our one chance at recognition, by proposing a flawed/incomplete proposal.
Work as a community...with eachother instead of against..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

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Does any other system under consideration use absolute length measurements? The one you enthused about at Elsinore didn't.

and that's a very good point. maybe we want to include something like that in whatever future methods we design. you can easily compute the scale based on the size of someone's rig or something.

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What does the number of jumps have to do with the quality of a skydive? Can you look at the Illinois formation and identify the low number participant?

it has a lot to do with safety. diving to the formation and not taking someone out in the process. being able to break off safely, and so on.
it's also a general sense that a record should be something hard to accomplish, not something any newbie can do.

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A week ago, I wouldn't have commented on the grid system.

You posting history here says otherwise. You have commented on it a great deal prior to a week ago.

read again, he was quoting some email that someone else sent. those aren't Spot's words. it's that other dude who sent the email...

[kallend 1,621]

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I honestly couldn't care what system we ultimately use to judge things, but I do feel VERY strongly about a small group of people pushing something forward that doesn't have the majority support of those of us taking part in the sport.

Also, we are of course very vocal on this forum, and I know there is only a minority of actual participants who actively take part in discussions, but I ask again, why is no one from the grid based system making their points here?

OK - a question and a comment.

Question: HOW do you plan to evaluate that a proposal has majority support?

Comment: I have made a serious suggestion in another thread on this open and widely read forum (623 views so far) for a different, quantitative and objective way of evaluating a 2-D wingsuit formation of any shape and design, I have given several examples, and asked for comments. So far only three people have made serious comments. Maybe the community really isn't interested.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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What does the number of jumps have to do with the quality of a skydive? Can you look at the Illinois formation and identify the low number participant?

it has a lot to do with safety. diving to the formation and not taking someone out in the process. being able to break off safely, and so on.
it's also a general sense that a record should be something hard to accomplish, not something any newbie can do.

[mccordia 73]

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Question: HOW do you plan to evaluate that a proposal has majority support?

By the one simple standard we should set: DOES IT WORK.
At the point where ANY system gives us a 100% failsafe result, in terms of YES/NO records.

At that point, no real critique should be possible anymore, with regards to improvements needed.
If we dont get to that stage, of a reasonably failsafe judgement method. Than why waste ANYONES time trying to get it accepted.

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Comment: I have made a serious suggestion in another thread on this open and widely read forum for a different, quantitative and objective way of evaluating a 2-D wingsuit formation of any shape and design, I have given several examples, and asked for comments. So far only three people have made serious comments. Maybe the community really isn't interested.

Unlike you, some people have other things to do. And I think you know quite well who and what that is.
Just like you wont be attending the proposed meet at flock and dock, maybe you're not interested?

That aside, I do see promise in what you designed, and (like I said before) after the FAI hoopla is over, and we are not screaming towards the edge of a cliff anymore in a car without brakes, (with your approval) I would gladly shoot you an email or (skype)call, and talk about setting this method of judging up in our software as well, so we can make it available to the whole community in easy accesable/quick way (if people dont like doing it by hand), and compare it with other methods (I had some more submitted by email as well).

If you could do me a favour, and shoot me a brief explanation of your method, in 'dumb people language' so I can also show part of it as the FAI as one of the methods proposed/in development, you'd do me a great favour

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?