FAI, Wingsuits, and the Grid

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I have already responded to USPA on the blog.

Breathe deep, don't die

[Costyn 0]

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Personally, I am a more than a bit unhappy at the back-and-forth mudslinging that has been going on in regards to this subject. Both sides need to take a step back and take a breath. It seems that the debate has degenerated into an argument over personal gain. It’s my opinion that “greater good” trumps “personal gain” every time. I believe that both systems have merit and both should be considered, along with any other system that might be proposed. I, as a ten-year wingsuit instructor/coach/organizer think that it’s a bit premature to be having a fight at the international level as to what system ought to be used in the future for establishing records.

Both camps have invested time and money in their judging systems and, as a result, have vested interests in getting their plan approved before the other. How long did it take for USPA and NSL to formally adopt OmniSkore (sic?) for FS scoring? I know it wasn’t a one-year process.

Sincerely,

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA
DragonFly Wingsuit School/Z-Flock Wingsuit School

Chuck, as part of "the Netherlands" team I'd just like to make some comments: Firstly, we're not looking to get our system accepted at this time. Our goal at the IPC was showing that there are alternatives to the grid in the wingsuit community and asking the regulatory bodies for more time to develop one of the methods (could even be the grid with some changes) into something the majority can be happy with.

Jarno and Ronald are going to be presenting several methods today at the IPC: our own, Zach's and Kallend's. After the IPC we will release our software so everyone can play with it. We then would like to implement Kallend's method into our software so people can play with that as well. In the coming year we would like for the community to try the methods on the various formations that have been made and will be made and see what works and what doesn't work, and let us know what changes in the methods and/or software will make it better.

Cheers,

Costyn.

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[mccordia 73]

Just back from our presentation.
Ill write a more in depth version later today.

The IPC/FAI was impressed with the sport and luckely agreed not to implement anything now.
There will be a workgroup created to investigate, report and work as spokespersons for the community. There is also an interest from the USPA to sit in on any meeting/brainstorming we want to organise at Zflock, to hear everyones voice.

We severly shortened our presentation, to also allow Taya to present in our timeslot. So everyone got a chance to say and show what they had to say.

More details later, but first reactions are good.
We now have an open road ahead of is, but one with a clear destination to aim towards.

Specfic questions where asked about artistic formats and performance competitions, and an expressed wish to have us also work towards maybe seeing those diciplines implemented (in due time) as wel as a seperate 'docked formation record' catagory.
So plenty of thing we should talk about and further develop..

We will look at starting a seperate blog, forum and website for further development

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

thanks for the report, Jarno.
looking forward to more details.

There is one thing I would like to throw out there since we are mentioning this Meeting to be had at Flock n Dock.
There have been concerns about some people being unable to attend. Keep in mind that no matter what boogie this happens at, there will always be this sort of situation. So we are looking into various web conferencing solutions to allow those with relevant contributions to participate remotely in the conversation. More information will be made available when we know it :)

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Nice reply, Costyn. I was hoping to hear something like that.

[piisfish 135]

Hey Jarno, if TAya is around we can try and also get her on the Heli load (weather permitting) tomorrow.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

dont forget me!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[monkycndo 0]

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dont forget me!

We try, but we never seem to get that lucky.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[kallend 1,621]

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thanks for the report, Jarno.
looking forward to more details.

There is one thing I would like to throw out there since we are mentioning this Meeting to be had at Flock n Dock.
There have been concerns about some people being unable to attend. Keep in mind that no matter what boogie this happens at, there will always be this sort of situation. So we are looking into various web conferencing solutions to allow those with relevant contributions to participate remotely in the conversation. More information will be made available when we know it :)

I would very much like to participate but, as mentioned previously, a wedding anniversary conflicts with FnD. I could probably web conference.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Buried 0]

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There will be a workgroup created to investigate, report and work as spokespersons for the community.

consisting of who/what types of people?

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[SuperGirl 0]

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There will be a workgroup created to investigate, report and work as spokespersons for the community.

consisting of who/what types of people?

perhaps we could start a sign-up list, like we do for boogies.

[Zeemax 0]

If this is to discuss a world wide solution, is there a reason it should be held in the US?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[SuperGirl 0]

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If this is to discuss a world wide solution, is there a reason it should be held in the US?

I think this is more to BEGIN discussing a world wide solution.
so multiple events is probably a good idea...

[SimonBones 1]

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There will be a workgroup created to investigate, report and work as spokespersons for the community.

consisting of who/what types of people?

perhaps we could start a sign-up list, like we do for boogies.

Or maybe agree on a set of qualifications required to be an official spokesperson, then enough signature recommendations to run, then a community vote on the possible candidates.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[mjosparky 3]

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If this is to discuss a world wide solution, is there a reason it should be held in the US?

Is there a reason it shouldn't be held in the US?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[virgin-burner 1]

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dont forget me!

We try, but we never seem to get that lucky.

in your face!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[kallend 1,621]

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There will be a workgroup created to investigate, report and work as spokespersons for the community.

consisting of who/what types of people?

perhaps we could start a sign-up list, like we do for boogies.

Or maybe agree on a set of qualifications required to be an official spokesperson, then enough signature recommendations to run, then a community vote on the possible candidates.

Well, I doubt there'd be any agreement on qualifications without first having a preliminary meeting to discuss what the qualifications should be. We'd need signature recommendations and a community vote in order to attend that meeting. And then what qualifications would people need before they could be candidates? Another meeting to decide............

On the other hand, it would be easier to allow anyone to attend who is willing to bring the beer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SimonBones 1]

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On the other hand, it would be easier to allow anyone to attend who is willing to bring the beer.

Possession of beer is a pretty strong qualification and a compelling case for the candidate.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[mccordia 73]

The process we have initiated is a long one.
There will be more meetings.

From what I got, there will be a FAI workgroup of 4 or 5 people, who will mostly function as a pair of ears from the FAI into our community. Its up to us to get organised and submit ideas and suggestions, and most of all...show progress..

Docked formations and the performance and artistic competition formats seem the closest candidates for FAI recognition. Seeing as those are clearer concepts with regards to judging. But also there, stuff we should/will not just throw out there without a wider community review and input.

But this non gripped format is the one we should work on and tackle for sure, for dozens of reasons, but even if even only to show we can work together as a community.
Without sounding to much 'sing cumbaya and hold hands', I think the past weeks struggle led to a good new direction/road we're taking..

Looking forward to whats to come.
A blog/forum dedicated to the exact judging subject is probably a thing we'll also try and setup after f&d, to track, follow, inform and allow everyone to comment and give input on the ongoing proces. Setup meets. Submit feedback. Etc.

And somewhere in the middle of all this, try and also jump and have fun...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

Jarno,
Wanted to be the first to thank you for;
-Being willing to stand as an alternative to the other presentation.

-Making time in your presentation to allow for all other methods to be presented.

-being willing to look at other algorithms for the software.

-the assistance in forming a team that can hopefully find solutions to the questions involved in judging wingsuiting competitions and records in the future.

-Helping to keep it all out in the open so that nothing is being done behind closed doors.

In the end, it's all about our community and making it happen for the mutual benefit of everyone.

Thank you.

[mnskydiver688 0]

I think there should be a vote to create a committee which is then setup to decide on the qualified spokesmen which with then form a committee to discuss the solution and then present to a committee to make a final decision on the solution.

All the while us "non" committee members will continue working toward increasing the number of new wingsuit pilots and ensuring proper training is being utilized.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[Zeemax 0]

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Jarno,
Wanted to be the first to thank you for;
-Being willing to stand as an alternative to the other presentation.

-Making time in your presentation to allow for all other methods to be presented.

-being willing to look at other algorithms for the software.

-the assistance in forming a team that can hopefully find solutions to the questions involved in judging wingsuiting competitions and records in the future.

-Helping to keep it all out in the open so that nothing is being done behind closed doors.

In the end, it's all about our community and making it happen for the mutual benefit of everyone.

Thank you.

I just want to thank him for bringing stroopwaffel puding to dinner a couple of weeks ago. Man that shit was good. Seriously, why aren't the dutch the size of houses?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[mccordia 73]

A lot of people are curious about the next steps.
All things Ive mentioned so far, as a result of the FAI meet, are suggestions and potential paths to follow.

Ronald Overdijk or Henny Wiggers will post here (probably in the fresh/new Thread macca created) on the further path to be undertaken.

And my appologies for a slightly wrong wording on my behalf regarding the alloted speaking time.
The proper wording there would be:

'The Netherlands severly shortened their presentation, to allow USPA to present in the given timeslot. So both countries got a chance to say and show what they had to say.'

That said, my gratitude and humble thanx for all the effort everyone put in.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Ronald 0]

As IPC delegate from the Netherlands I can give the following comment.

The Netherlands submitted an agenda item regarding a possible inclusion of wingsuit records within the IPC structure. At present only formation records with grips are recognized. The wingsuit formations in the US, and elsewhere, as such can not be recognized by the IPC. Assuming the US was making a formal proposal for wingsuit records the Netherlands put forward an agenda item with a possible alternative to the US proposal.

After discussion here at the IPC meeting in Lausanne it was agreed to propose to start a working group. The initial focus is on no-contact wingsuit formations, and on how to judge them best. Not more. The proposed people in this working group are Larry Bagley (USA), Jackie Brewer (South Africa), me Ronald Overdijk (NED), Taya Weiss (USA) and Jarno Cordia (NED) with the possible addition of a sixth person. Taya and Jarno will act as advisors.

The proposal has to be ratified by the IPC plenary meeting. Expected time for that is tomorrow sunday 31st.

Ronald Overdijk
IPC Delegate The Netherlands

[kallend 1,621]

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Personally, I am a more than a bit unhappy at the back-and-forth mudslinging that has been going on in regards to this subject. Both sides need to take a step back and take a breath. It seems that the debate has degenerated into an argument over personal gain. It’s my opinion that “greater good” trumps “personal gain” every time. I believe that both systems have merit and both should be considered, along with any other system that might be proposed. I, as a ten-year wingsuit instructor/coach/organizer think that it’s a bit premature to be having a fight at the international level as to what system ought to be used in the future for establishing records.

Both camps have invested time and money in their judging systems and, as a result, have vested interests in getting their plan approved before the other. How long did it take for USPA and NSL to formally adopt OmniSkore (sic?) for FS scoring? I know it wasn’t a one-year process.

Sincerely,

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA
DragonFly Wingsuit School/Z-Flock Wingsuit School

Chuck, as part of "the Netherlands" team I'd just like to make some comments: Firstly, we're not looking to get our system accepted at this time. Our goal at the IPC was showing that there are alternatives to the grid in the wingsuit community and asking the regulatory bodies for more time to develop one of the methods (could even be the grid with some changes) into something the majority can be happy with.

Jarno and Ronald are going to be presenting several methods today at the IPC: our own, Zach's and Kallend's. After the IPC we will release our software so everyone can play with it. We then would like to implement Kallend's method into our software so people can play with that as well. In the coming year we would like for the community to try the methods on the various formations that have been made and will be made and see what works and what doesn't work, and let us know what changes in the methods and/or software will make it better.

Cheers,

Costyn.

Thanks, Costyn, for considering my suggestion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.