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SuperGirl

Flocking - it's here to stay!

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With all this anti-flocking bs in the other thread(s), perhaps we also need some more pro-flocking talk. I don't know about everyone else, but outside of all the drama and other ground stuff, just looking at the pure flying aspect of it, I thought some of the formations built in Elsinore were absolutely beautiful. Yeay for serious flocking!! That was bad ass!! A bit of good speed, too (yay, Purple!)
Seeing those sightlines fall into place... man, that was niiiice!! I'm sure some of the people on the previous unofficial 71-way shared similar feelings. Regardless of who calls it what... We've gone so far!! All the effort that went into these events enabled a lot of us to share some really good team jumps together, and I for one am very grateful for that.

So... how 'bout all that flocking, eh? What's next? Bigger-ways? Huge multi-points? 3D? If so, how will those be grid-worthy? And how done are we with our current grid-worthyness? How can we improve our flocking experience even more?

It is in our human nature to continue to question things, and to always seek to better ourselves. A week before the bigway event, some interesting ideas were kicked around in another thread. I recall some cool bubbles with the potential of turning them into a photoshop brush or something like that. Sounded like a really neat addition. It also sounded like some really bad timing. Nobody wants to listen to any new stuff just a week before a major event. It's the worst occasion to bring that up. Too late in the game. So, then, when is a good time? How about something like RIGHT NOW?:P

How about we don't wait another 2 years until it's too late in the game - AGAIN - to have some meaningful pro-flocking discussions. Get your brains working! How can flocking become even better? Hell, perhaps we can reach a point when even Yuri might be tempted to join the flock! Now that would be an interesting challenge, wouldn't it?

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I predict this thread will be chock full of rational, level-headed discussion in which all viewpoints will be presented without hyperbole or exaggeration, responses will both on-point and respected by those to whom they are directed, and there will be no subtle (or not so subtle) "brand war" issues thrown around.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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I predict this thread will be chock full of rational, level-headed discussion in which all viewpoints will be presented without hyperbole or exaggeration, responses will both on-point and respected by those to whom they are directed, and there will be no subtle (or not so subtle) "brand war" issues thrown around.



You my friend owe me a new keyboard....... ;)
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Well-said Supergirl!! My personal experiences, at the big way, this year will never be replaced and always will be well worth the trip. It was obvious that all those who came...came for the same reason. To enjoy the thrill of flocking with so many others.
There were no brand war comments or any thing even close. Discussions about how they liked their particular suit etc were shared openly with no negativity to anyone..at least not to anyone I was involved with. The tremendous work of the organizes and all involved, especially Eli, were impressive. To have been lucky enough to have been a part of it was one of the greatest accomplishments of my skydiving career so far. I look forward to new ideas, innovations and progression in this area of the sport.

After 30 years of skydiving, Wingsuiting has built a fire in my heart ever since I got my first Birdman Classic in 2002. I am sure we all looked up to the sky, when were kids, and dreamt about being up there with the clouds and flying like the birds.
Well fortunately for us all we are as close as man can come so far. Going fast and long, flocking with our friends, 3D dives, buzzing the clouds, rodeo flights, doing a series of acrobatic maneuvers with a partner...and the list goes on. Who would have ever thought that we would have all of this in a few short years? Lets all enjoy it.....savor the moments.... and consider ourselves very luck to be some of the few, on this planet, who have this privilege. Always remember..... if it wasn't for the experiences....life would be pretty empty. I look forward to flying and flocking with you all again in the upcoming years, and also to see if Lurch can resist the urge to make his own modifications to his brand new suit...ha ha

Bring on the new tricks!!! Play Safe my friends....

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So... how 'bout all that flocking, eh? What's next? Bigger-ways? Huge multi-points? 3D? If so, how will those be grid-worthy? And how done are we with our current grid-worthyness? How can we improve our flocking experience even more?



All of the above, I hope. Scott C. led some really cool 3-D and dynamic stuff after the main event was over.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Of course! Disciplines in skydiving don't really survive unless a lot of folks get involved. Freestyle and skysurfing dwindled with their two-or-so person limits, while freeflying and swooping blew up with formations and spectators, respectively. Likewise, wingsuits were just a rare thing for the dropzone oddball or BASE jumper until people started flocking. And flocking is what will keep these things around for a very long time.

The more the merrier...

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So... how 'bout all that flocking, eh? What's next? Bigger-ways? Huge multi-points? 3D? If so, how will those be grid-worthy? And how done are we with our current grid-worthyness? How can we improve our flocking experience even more?

It is in our human nature to continue to question things, and to always seek to better ourselves. A week before the bigway event, some interesting ideas were kicked around in another thread.



The grid was a great first step, especially considering that it was generated entirely out of an emotional reaction to an objective criticism.
The problems I have with the grid;
-Lack of flexibility.
-it forces skydivers to fly in a slot determined by the creators of the grid, vs slots determined by skydivers and the never-ending desire to be creative.
-The grid has never been properly discussed nor criticized in an objective manner, by the people whom it binds.
-The USPA's ignorance of wingsuiting allowed the board to vote on a system under the guise of it being accepted by the "entire wingsuit community." In other words, they were hoodwinked, and many of the board have now come to realize this.
Quote

"Are we done with our current grid-worthiness?"



It never should have gotten beyond the 71 way for which it was intended, IMO.

How does the grid support multipoint formations? tight flying such as head/toe or closer? Non-diamond or wedge-based flying?
Do we need a judging mechanism that applies to all sub-disciplines in wingsuiting? Or do we ignore the direction that wingsuiting is going and keep flocking 3 meters apart?
In the news media, Taya commented that "Soon we'll see hundreds and hundreds of wingsuiters in a flock." Do we really want that? Or do we want to build wingsuiting the way RW and FF were built? Small, clean formations that grew to larger, more complex formations as the skill levels increased? This year's formation had a lot of low-number people, and the formation was easier than last years. Does this seem like devolution?

FWIW, even though I can't agree with the grid, I do support whatever formations people put together. I was in Elsinore to fly any assigned slot, and was ready to support a system I can't agree with.

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Hey, don't blame me, man, I haven't even started in on this thread yet. I hijacked Yuri's thread with deliberate cruelty and malice aforethought cause I was sick of his crap and decided to see if I could make something cool out of it. This one, you guys are on your own.
Since the nature of wingsuiters is about the same as a big flock of chickadees, just as random and twice as entertaining, I say unto you, drift on. Let the threads drift where they may. When the chips are down, the threads get drifty. Thread drift is natural, its ok and I'm comfortable with that. What the hell, its better than an asbestos and cheesecake sandwich, right? I mean, if somebody offered you either thread drift or an asbestos and cheesecake sandwich, the choice would be an easy one to make, wouldn't it?
Now I could be wrong, you might have a taste for hazardous fireproof industrial minerals, what the hell, theres room for all preferences, its a big world, live and let live, right? I was just looking for a generally undesirable example. I'm just sayin, threads will drift, thats what they do, when their original purpose has been fulfilled, like a used condom floating down a canal into Boston harbor. In much the same way, they often become unhygienic but unintentionally amusing, like what happens when some kid fishes it out of the harbor with a stick and shows off the balloon to his parents.
Inflated.
The thread is fulfilling its purpose in the digital ecosystem, just like that well travelled condom. And the lesson to be learned from the story is, just like the condom, when you see it drifting down the canal minding its own business, leave it alone.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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The pie is small and everyone wants a piece of it.
So far as a brand spanking new flocker(more a dodo than an eagle) I have seen people having a good time with good friends and lots of shiny new toys to play with.
I also hear of bubbles and lines and all kinds of geometries that do not exist in the sky but people can still stay right in them...that is good flying and the rest is arbitrary.
Unlike FF or FS we do not have grippers that the dock is either "on or off"-the sky is our 3D playground that we can play in as we please. There are already people flying wingsuits with HD freefliers and docking for points
What's next?
-Sitfly in a wingsuit?
-Flat spin competitions?(most number of flat spins in 15 seconds AND you have to fly out of it)
-Rodeo transfer race?(Least amount of time from exit that it takes a rodeo rider to go from the back of one wingsuiter to the other)
-There are many more that people will think of

Point is...We need to be flexible and be able to play together. We shoot ourselves in the foot every time we fight about beaurocracy. (And you can't fly with a bullet in your foot.) I think there is wisdom to go back to the basics "Plan your flock and dive your...er...plan?" and the rules should be:
1)Were you safe?
2)Did you do what you set out to do?
3)Do you have proof?
4)Do you owe beer?
If the answer is "yes" to all of them (well maybe not 4) then the rest of it is squabbling for bragging rights.

USPA can adopt whatever rules they want to judge a formation or whatever. On my dive, participants define failure and success. I see the rules as something that is there until something better comes along.(Like a condom in Boston?yech)

I for one will stay on the sidelines and just watch the people who are figting over how to brag about your accomplishments because when you play with poop long enough, you start smelling.

caw caw
Checkyourgear
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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Of course its here to stay, people bitching about big ways is like 4 way flat flyers bitching about 8 ways or big ways even, if they love doing 4 way, they will still do it all.

Its there to do, for you to play with, and yes, all your friends are there too........ Party.........

Doing any one event all the time is boring, a bit of this and a bit of that, its the spice of life
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

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Reference Supergirls postings on ideas that were kicked around a couple weeks before the 100 way big event that became the 68 way event: ....and Fast Ed's bubble overlay of the 68 way posted earlier in theis thread.... ie
Here ya go. prior posting...

Attachments: 68-way-Bubble Grid.jpg (83.2 KB)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ed,..your illustration of your bubbles overlaid on the 68 way photo nicley shows what your bubble idea as judging system would do to refine the judging criteria,.... You bubbles pretty much are circles that would enclose the must touch-fly-within common enclosed shaded areas inside the lines connecting the flyers predeclared positions on a template that Ed P and I were suggesting along with no toach lines.
McCoridia wrote to me with another similar must fly in shaded areas technique for a computer based photo scan and based on a philosophy that he said was being evauated already by a large group of some of the best flocking flyers ... I saw the list of people he was getting input from and it was impressive.... You should tak your thoughts to hsi group. For me it was "more" than intersesting that whetehr it was your bubble template ,..my and ED P's must touch within lines /must not touch lines OR the result of the softwar techique McCordia's group had developed ,... the very same 4 to 6 flyers on the grid certified 68 way photo would have been judged as being "out of position" by each system . That result I believe says something positive for the basic merit in what you , me, EdP and McCordia's group have thinking over and been suggesting as a more refined judging criteria than the cureent grid.... It really should not be ( but I guess 'could-be) hard to get one or a combination of these methods accepted for testing in the upcoming winter/spring flocking events over the next 6 months and have a tighter more special and more accurate vs intented positons method for overall judging on all future sizes and shapes of formations.

Good luck on that ...............

Super girl really should be denied access to these forums . She makes entirely too much sense in her diplomatic approaches to our male ego and pride of authorship stubborness that takes up most of the postings ( like mine)
DSE "was" my favorite diplomat ,..but it is very difficult for me to imagine any diplomat retaining their composure after watching their own side's people bomb their car..... So I vote Andrea as our chief wingsuit forum diplomat and logic sanity check flyer.

Not that many of you realize that she's my adopted daughter and in whom I am greatly proud.
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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Here ya go.



With the exception of the front row on the left, all your bubble lines in this example are running from upper left to lower right. This introduces an assymetry in the judging criterion.

What if you ran your lines on the other diagonal? Or along both?

The general problem I see with your approach is that a jumper is judged only with respect to immediate neighbors (one neighbor only in the current example), whereas the instruction we receive (appropriately IMO) is to look beyond the immediate neighbor to 2 or 3 places down at least two and maybe three sight lines.

As I wrote previously, the bubble method does a good job evaluating short range order (immediate neighborhood) but nothing whatever to evaluate long range order.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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On FS/FF formations/skew is also not a problem on lines/wackers, even in the most extreme forms. As long as you are docked to you neighbour, its a 100% valid dock/slot flown..



Indeed - and a "cat" is a legal "cat" even if bent in a semicircle. ANGLES aren't important AT ALL in FS/FF, so the analogy isn't very good.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I think that angles should be more important to a wingsuit flock than to FS/FF because of the fact that there are no docks.



Right, so the analogy with FS/FF isn't very good.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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If you set a max and min distance for a flyer to be in a slot, its rougly compare-able to the min/max reach an arm has. If towards the back, everyone flies max distance and the spread gets to wide/far to reach..you loose a dock. Same for flying distance without docks.

If you imagine the distance between flyers a set min and max distance, its closer to docked flying than you may see (in terms of quantifyable results).
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Here ya go.



With the exception of the front row on the left, all your bubble lines in this example are running from upper left to lower right. This introduces an assymetry in the judging criterion.

What if you ran your lines on the other diagonal? Or along both?

The general problem I see with your approach is that a jumper is judged only with respect to immediate neighbors (one neighbor only in the current example), whereas the instruction we receive (appropriately IMO) is to look beyond the immediate neighbor to 2 or 3 places down at least two and maybe three sight lines.

As I wrote previously, the bubble method does a good job evaluating short range order (immediate neighborhood) but nothing whatever to evaluate long range order.

The general problem I see with your approach is that a jumper is judged only with respect to immediate neighbors (one neighbor only in the current example), whereas the instruction we receive (appropriately IMO) is to look beyond the immediate neighbor to 2 or 3 places down at least two and maybe three sight lines.

As I wrote previously, the bubble method does a good job evaluating short range order (immediate neighborhood) but nothing whatever to evaluate long range order.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

..... I hear what you are saying Kallend and there are things that can improve on Ed's bubble idea ,...But FIRST,....you have to admit that if each flyer on that 68 way photo had eiither their head or their body ( not the arm wings or legwings -but the head or middle body section inside Fast Ed's bubbles template ( whichever is chosen and I prefer the body ) ,..then that 68 way sure would have been an even sweeter , more beautiful, more symetrical and most important a "more accurate representation" of what each and all the flyers were "intending" to do individually and as the entire 68 person team per the predeclared drawn formation/ So if the bubbles template of fast Ed's had been used for judging,...the result would have been a record that was much better flown individually and as a tem than the result that was obtained using the best fit grid judging appoach. Or maybe the event would not have succeded in producung a record ( not all events should succeed,..although enough "experienced" good wingsuiters 'did' actually show up at Elsinore for them to do the 68 way or maybe a slightly smaller formation in the 50's. ( it seems the best fit grid criteria is producing the record goal at every event held by using the grid's best fit judging,... That makes for beautiful big fun formations but not "really special" formations worthy of being called " a record" . I agree with what Zack DSE, and many others have said here and away from this forum that a record should be something very difficult and very special,...NOT easily repeated. Using the grid I project that every event held will produce another "record".

As for Fast Ed's bubbles and the point you made Kallend,..I totally agree and that is why I wrote my earlier long emails on having a 2 foot wide ( scalable as 1/3 a typical flyers body length w/helmet to tail wing edge) transparent light colored shaded lines connecting each flyer's predetermined desired body midpoint ( the intendeded position's midpoint) and connected to all the other flyers midpoints along both diagonals ( if appropriate to the formation ) and along all horizontal connection lines and all vertical connection lines. THIS KIND OF template of intersecting lines as a judging criteria could even be drawn for a large S shaped formations or a large USPA letter formation in the sky.

Where these 2 ft wide colored transparent lines intersect is a where Faset Ed's circular bubble could be draw enclosing the space inside the connecting lines.

For example,... on the 68 way photo from Elsinore,... there would be a template with 68 circle bubbles on the template with each circle enclosing a diamond crossover space for each connecting diagonal and enclosing a square crossover space of each horizontal and vertical line. This would provide 8 points around which to draw either an octagon bubble of enclosed space or a circle by joining the 8 points of the Octagon as the circumferance of a bubble circle with a diameter of 6ft .

Each flyer's central body ( not their helmet , arm wings or leg wing ) would have to be within this Octagon or circular space bubble, giving each flyer about a 3.5 to 4 ft error margin either side of the intended dead center point in the bubble and about a 4 to 4.5 ft error margin forward or back of the intended bubble's dead center.

Narrow never touch lines should also be drawn on the template that could not be touched by any part of the flyers helmet or wings and they should be centered in the desired empty spaces between jumpers in any pre declared formation so as to encourage conservative and safe seperation . Another never touch line should be drawn entirely around the formation on the template perhaps 4 ft out from the the formation's intended full size as drawn so the wing tips and rear formation flyers form a shape as close as possible to the intended formation's shape.

If someone who actually knows what they are doing on a computer could illustrate what I just outlined ( fast Ed or McCordia or Kallend or Matt or Andrea or ???? I would really appreciate that ....and it would help everyone see what I am getting at based on what Ed P ( uncle Charlie) told the Italians combined with my thoughts and Ed's buddles.... Maybe McCordia ,..you could use this somehow in the approach you were using ...

Again,..using my method based on uuncle Charlies lines ,..the method one Fast Ed has posted or the method McCordia sent me for comments ,...EACH identified the same 4 to 6 out flyers on the recent 68 way that were considered "in" for the best fit grid judgement ( even though their positions were very obviously not where they wouldhave wanted or intended to be. So ,..as a sanity check of sorts,....ALL these ideas have merit as an improvement to the grid and it's "best "fit" manipulations. ( those flyer who were on the photo out of position perhaps were only ther momentarily when the photo was snapped and then recovered to their intended spots and overall that awesome formation was a beautiful and wonderful accomplishment . Each of the three methods ( not the grid) also places the template on the photos based on the fomation leader being in their exact intended poistion whwn the phor is snappped. it is the leader's position, their horizonyal and vertical speeds, stabiility and heading that eveyone else is either directly or indirectly building the formation around and they "should always" be assumed to be in the correct position thorughout the flight until break off.

I look forward to seeing what is taken to the USPA board in 2010 as refined judging methodology....hased on a large majority backing by the entire wingsuit community worldwide . The grid idea was a good start until the square became a diamond and then a "best fit" approach got thrown into the criteria "after the 2008 71 way so that the methodology could make the intended outcome be something that it wasn't per the original criteria.

I do hope the USPA allows us to try out some of these new jugement methods and then surveys those members who indicate that the wingsuit is their primary displine so that our wingsuit family's thoughts on what woks and works better is fully considered before more 'records' get chalked up nased on the best fit grid.

Good luck to that "group out there developong alternatives ....
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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I will post some pictures and a detailed explanation this week. Just taking things a tad slow, as Im hurting a bit due to some idiot driving on the wrong side of the road, hitting me, and wrecking my car. Nothing serious on my behalf..just severe muscle ache everywhere..

But anyways..Ill post details on what we have so far, and am looking forward to further think, brainstorm, and expand on current judging methods.

While quite clear 'the grid' has major flaws, and some formations fitting the grid have actually been skipped for USPA submittion due to 'not looking like a record' even though it was fully validated. I do wonder whats up with all the hinting at FAI submittion/acceptance.
With the entire community agreeing its an incorrect basis gor judging, it seems like a weird thing to still take that system and start the proces of getting it accepted..waiting at least another year till there is another actual working method seems like the more sane thing to do..

I hope there is no active IPC push for the grid this year..but a lot of comments seem to suggest otherwise...[:/]

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I hear what you are saying Kallend and their are things that can improve on Ed's bubble idea ,...But FIRST,....you have to admit that if each flyer on that 68 way photo had eiither their head or their body ( not the arm wings or legwings -but the head or middle body section inside Fast Ed's bubbles template ( whichever is chosen and I prefer the body ) ,..then that 68 way sure would have been an ever sweeter , more beautiful, more symetrical and most important a "more accurate representation" of



We do need to make a distinction between the formation during the record and other formations in general.
The 68-way was flown TO FIT THE GRID.
All efforts were made to get the formation inside the grid, including exactly the kind of stuff Kallend is talking about with flying off of people further away rather than our immediate neighbors. Our only goal was to get a nice grid picture. We flew off of people way further in front of the formation in order to correct for any flaws in the lines that would affect the grid fit. Had the requirements been different, the flying might have been a little different, too. Instead, we found ourselves adapting our flying style to accommodate the grid, rather than the grid being an accurate representation of our flying.
No surprise that some of those bubbles don't always fit.

Quote

it seems the best fit grid criteria is producing the recod goal at every event held and using the grid's best fit judging,... That makes for beautiful big formations but not really special formations worthy of being called " a record". I agree with what Zack DSE, and many others have said here nad away from this forum that a record should be something very difficult and very special,...NOT easily repeated. Using the grid I project that every event held will produce another "record".


I, too, have mixed feelings about the current "best fit" criteria that are combined with subjectively choosing the formation that looks best. So we have a grid that could fit a bunch of junk in it (Jarno's counter-examples come to mind), but we claim that we will not submit a bunch of junk as a record jump, because people will always want to submit something that looks record-worthy. But we really have no guarantee for that and no proper way of enforcing it.
I recall a certain 70+ way (what was the number again?) being built the day before the mighty 68 way. I may be wrong, since I was not involved in any of the judging and I don't have any pictures at hand to prove this, but my impression was that the bigger way from the last jump the day before also kinda fit the grid, just not as nicely. Hence it didn't deserve to be called the record, when compared to the badass-looking 68-way that followed. 
So what makes the 68-way MORE grid-worthy than previous formations? How do we properly quantify its grid-worthiness without being too subjective? Yes, the 68-way provided a much better fit, it flew together longer in that solid configuration, it sure as hell felt great (that jump has provided most of us with sweet visuals of excellent sight lines, and memories that will probably last a lifetime). But if we hadn't done that jump, if Purple had flown a shittier base, if we'd gotten hosed by weather for the remainder of the event, or whatever other scenario, then would the other formations from the day before have been equally okay to claim as the new record? Or would we have stuck with the 30-something way from the earlier 2-plane formation just for the sake of being strict about it? 
When we move on to bigger and bigger numbers, will it be as easy to make the distinction? Will we be tempted to accept formations of lesser value then, just because the rules are loose enough to allow it? Will we risk becoming more complacent as the task becomes harder to accomplish?

It often seems that a decent formation is achieved, but it still looks a little bit all over the place, so it is then improved upon, until not only does it meet the baseline criteria for being a record, but it also LOOKS worthy of being called a record. We break a record, but we're not quite sure yet if it's the best we've got, so we try it a bunch more times, and then we realize that what we had before was actually pretty damn good and call that our best. When we finally realize we got a record it all feels a bit anticlimactic. Yea, we sorta knew we had something good all along... we were just working out a few kinks, but wait, we actually had it right there... never mind... It's not the clear YES/NO answer that makes you go "YEAH!!!" immediately. Why the doubt? There's that fuzziness that comes with the wide range of improvement that is still possible.

Maybe we are still missing some extra guidelines in that judging rule set.

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I will post some pictures and a detailed explanation this week. Just taking things a tad slow, as Im hurting a bit due to some idiot driving on the wrong side of the road, hitting me, and wrecking my car. Nothing serious on my behalf..just severe muscle ache everywhere..



cmon Jarno we all know it was the ponies on the side of the road that caused you to lose control of your vehicle.
stop looking at those ponies, you perv!

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