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yuri_base

American way of "flying"...

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And thus, the people who dont want to put the work in, and get their MTV/GoFast lifestyle 10 minute freefly-god speed-course, suddenly get scared away.



I don't agree with this. When you have 50 FF jumps and the guys today have 1000+ you just can't play with them unless they come down to your "level", which when they're spending $25 a jump they usually don't.

I can see the same thing happening in wingsuiting. When you have 50 WS jumps it's hard enough to just fly a slot at a mid 60's fall rate.

We have wingsuit RW, the new suits can do 40mph easy, the flocking is getting much more precise, 5+ mile flights, 4 way docks while back flying, etc. It's very non-exciting to just fly a base with a 70mph fallrate, but that's what Purple Mike, Scott Bland, Steve-o, Cancer Chris and a bunch of others did back in the day for the guys just getting into the sport.

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Compensate by increasing skills, not be decreasing the performance level of others..



How does the newbie increase his skills if the skilled guys don't decrease their performance so he can play with them?

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]I always try to put my head into the
wind and fly ASAP upon exit.

I don't. Great timing on your bad advice. ***[:/]




I was trying to be careful of how I was phrasing my response. As soon as possible meant was intended to mean as soon as I'm clear of the aircraft and stabilizer. I didn't mean 'as soon as i'm out the door. '

I should have been more specific and said that although my head is into the wind, my wings are NOT open. I feel that if I am in a horizontal position, I will be flying better/ sooner than if I started in a vertical position. I was trying to say that I think that is what yuri was calling the 'american way.'

Also, I gave no advice. I would never give skydiving advice on an online forum.

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There's stuff in between the black and white views a lot of people express above here..



Generally speaking, if you want to have a successful bigway, participants should be in the middle of their comfortable speed range. This applies whatever the discipline.



Isnt that exactly what Im saying?
Though I do believe 75 to 80% is that comfortable range you talk about.
Unless confortable means 'dont work to be there'

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I also note that the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Snowbirds, Red Arrows, Patrouille de France etc. do not fly their formation routines while maxed out.



But they also dont fly with their engines switched off..
And in general dont allow newby pilots with 2 hours logged in their formations where the dangerous stuff happens;):P
They also do seperate trainingflights with a coach/trainer to get people up to a certain skill level first...

People are now mixing 3 things in this discussion..
Loose flocks, newbies and performance levels..

But guess every discussion needs to have seperate non related issues thrown in to make sure everyone keeps disagreeing..

I to could care less what speed a new flyer is doing when I do an FFC or jusy cruise allong on initial flights.
But how is that related to formations not being allowed to fly at a normal speed?
More speed makes flying a lot smoother, more controled and a lot longer in term of workingtime.
Slow (forward) speeds tend to have people be more busy fight against dropping out, than using their controlls/inputs to fly their slot.

Again..there is more possible than all-out-balls-2-the-walls-maxed-out flying, or freefall in a big camerasuit. And people who just keep responding/defending/fighting on the two extremes will never agree..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I can see the same thing happening in wingsuiting. When you have 50 WS jumps it's hard enough to just fly a slot at a mid 60's fall rate.


Try to get rid of the fall rate fixation.

Your fall rate does not mean a sh1t.

Is 95 Km/h a nice fall rate? I can fly it with dirty 120 Km/h forward speed or about 200Km/h............:S

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Compensate by increasing skills, not be decreasing the performance level of others..



How does the newbie increase his skills if the skilled guys don't decrease their performance so he can play with them?



Is everyone an asshole when it comes to newbies?
Are freefalling bigways or solos all they get offered?

Whats wrong with 3, 4, 5 ways with flyers all flying with him/her to up their skills, untill the noob is a noob no more, and they can safely fly at skill/accuracy and performance levels needed for bigger stuff?

Apples...oranges....black..white...is that all everyone sees here?
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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...takes over the (what used to be) beautiful Europe.

http://vimeo.com/7431005

Student-style 90-degree angle of attack, chest-to-airflow exits (great way of setting up poor-glide flight as you have no lift, only drag at 90 degree AoA), bent legs (a syndrome previously attributed only to USA), banana arches...

Man, where's the world going to?



Way to generalize. A group of Finns flies dirty together on one video. So this is American... how?

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There's stuff in between the black and white views a lot of people express above here..



Generally speaking, if you want to have a successful bigway, participants should be in the middle of their comfortable speed range. This applies whatever the discipline.



Isnt that exactly what Im saying?
Though I do believe 75 to 80% is that comfortable range you talk about.
Unless confortable means 'dont work to be there'

..



Maybe, I'm not sure.

Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it. If the base maxes out on forward speed they will not catch it. Similarly, if the base minimizes fall rate the floaters will be hosed.

Purple Mike made a great base because he set a consistent speed that both floaters and late divers could accommodate.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it.



Only if your plane flies backwards..normaly people come out in front of the group, not behind:P.
And regardless of distance..the later divers have more altitude, which translates to more horizontal speed..

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If the base maxes out on forward speed



75 to 80% isnt maxed out...thats 100%
again...there is a middle ground..

Purple Mike made a great base because he set a consistent speed



Consistancy is totaly unrelated to performance levels.
But a praiseworthy skill, manditory skill (which I personaly lack:S) for base flyers in all bigways..As long as a base repeats the flying speed time and time again, the group can learn to adjust and perform better and better to match what the base is doing.
If freefliers doing 160 mph on a full load have their divers and floaters be able to carch up, than so should we..

Why everyone is trying to turn this into critique appearantly aimed at the recent bigway baffles me..
Why isnt a discussion possible without it turning into shitting on something someone else has done?

The general cry to try and up the overall performance and skill levels...all for it. Specific mentions and trashing of videos/peoples acomplishments...uncalled for...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it.



Only if your plane flies backwards..normaly people come out in front of the group, not behind:P.
And regardless of distance..the later divers have more altitude, which translates to more horizontal speed..

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If the base maxes out on forward speed



75 to 80% isnt maxed out...thats 100%
again...there is a middle ground..

Purple Mike made a great base because he set a consistent speed



Consistancy is totaly unrelated to performance levels.
But a praiseworthy skill, manditory skill (which I personaly lack:S) for base flyers in all bigways..As long as a base repeats the flying speed time and time again, the group can learn to adjust and perform better and better to match what the base is doing.
If freefliers doing 160 mph on a full load have their divers and floaters be able to carch up, than so should we..

Why everyone is trying to turn this into critique appearantly aimed at the recent bigway baffles me..
Why isnt a discussion possible without it turning into shitting on something someone else has done?

The general cry to try and up the overall performance and skill levels...all for it. Specific mentions and trashing of videos/peoples acomplishments...uncalled for...



me NASCAR clapping!!! and for some of us heavy guys ( fat in the middle ) it takes 95 to 100% in a large suit just to fly at a vertical airspeeds down near 60mph ( I enjoy coming in from behind so I can see the group ,..build up my speed and have less effort intially as I get placement) We big boys REALLY appreciate a constant base descent and forward speed so we can judge getting in and staying there for a minute or so after arrival.. ( way to go Purple on the 68 way... That was my experience with you in Sebastian last winter and with Scott Bland, Justin and Jeff ( most times) but it must be damn hard for someone Jeff's size and your size to fly "high performance suits" at your 50%,... so I can be in the formations at my 95 to 100%.... I appreciate your willingness to be as Lurch said " Part of a group with commaraderie just having fun"

PS : As last out of the 4th aircraft last year on three of the 70 plus at Elsinore , the formation was ALWAYS well behind me and I had to turn about 150 degress left and dive to even get to see the formation. Where a formation "is" has something to do with which aircraft you are in and when you depart . On the last 73 way I got to leave the 2nd plane last and I only had to do shorter left turn and dive to see everyone heading toward the base. (.. the only times I have exited later and been above and ahead of a formation is when we fly the flock on the planes heading )
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it.



Only if your plane flies backwards..normaly people come out in front of the group, not behind:P.
...



Don't confuse the plane with the jumpers.

The base was definitely in front and left of me when I exited, and in front when I was catching it. PM definitely had his FEET rather than his head towards me and my head was towards him, so I'd say I was behind him. I find my Tonysuit doesn't fly feet first very well.;)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it.



Only if your plane flies backwards..normaly people come out in front of the group, not behind:P.
...



Don't confuse the plane with the jumpers.

The base was definitely in front and left of me when I exited, and in front when I was catching it. PM definitely had his FEET rather than his head towards me and my head was towards him, so I'd say I was behind him. I find my Tonysuit doesn't fly feet first very well.;)



hmmmmmmm

If the base and fomation is ahead of you ,..how can you be coming out in front of the formation,...I agree that PM would have his feet facing your head once you turned to head toward him and the formation,...and at that moment he and the formation would all be aheadof you ( YES,...always in front of you relative to you ONCE you face it and you would still be behind the formation at the moment you leave the aircraft realative o where the formation is going,... but yes in front of the formation relative to the ground... (somehow I actually follow that ) Oh shit,...what was the question?!
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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Remember that on a big way the last divers are leaving the planes several seconds after the base and are several hundred meters behind it.



Only if your plane flies backwards..normaly people come out in front of the group, not behind:P.
...



Don't confuse the plane with the jumpers.

The base was definitely in front and left of me when I exited, and in front when I was catching it. PM definitely had his FEET rather than his head towards me and my head was towards him, so I'd say I was behind him. I find my Tonysuit doesn't fly feet first very well.;)



hmmmmmmm

If the base and fomation is ahead of you ,..how can you be coming out in front of the formation,...I agree that PM would have his feet facing your head once you turned to head toward him and the formation,...and at that moment he and the formation would all be aheadof you ( YES,...always in front of you relative to you ONCE you face it and you would still be behind the formation at the moment you leave the aircraft realative o where the formation is going,... but yes in front of the formation relative to the ground... (somehow I actually follow that ) Oh shit,...what was the question?!



Dunno, but I'd like to point out that a diving exit goes backwards relative to the plane, so the base is in front of the jumper. Getting out facing forwards and turning just wastes time.

If I'm chasing the formation from behind (which I and the other late exiting jumpers were as the videos clearly show) then I AM behind the formation.:)

Jarno is just confused about frames of reference.;)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Jarno is just confused about frames of reference.;)



Speaking of frames of reference, until one of you specifies the flock heading relative to the jumprun heading, the whole discussion is moot.

I was in Elsinore so I know the flock turned 90 degrees to the left. But unless you specify that to Jarno (who wasn't there), he is correct that, in general, people who get out of an airplane later are further forward than the people who got out earlier (disregarding unspecified heading changes). Aircraft direction is the only reference that is a given (you don't have to explain it).
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Jarno is just confused about frames of reference.;)



Speaking of frames of reference, until one of you specifies the flock heading relative to the jumprun heading, the whole discussion is moot.

I was in Elsinore so I know the flock turned 90 degrees to the left. But unless you specify that to Jarno (who wasn't there), he is correct that, in general, people who get out of an airplane later are further forward than the people who got out earlier (disregarding unspecified heading changes). Aircraft direction is the only reference that is a given (you don't have to explain it).



Well, DOWN is also defined.:)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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in general, people who get out of an airplane later are further forward than the people who got out earlier . Aircraft direction is the only reference that is a given (you don't have to explain it).




Watching one of the formation loads from underneath the exit point at the end of the lake it is evident that the late divers in the first plane have the furthest to fly to the formation, asuming no stagering of the exit count between planes.

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in general, people who get out of an airplane later are further forward than the people who got out earlier . Aircraft direction is the only reference that is a given (you don't have to explain it).




Watching one of the formation loads from underneath the exit point at the end of the lake it is evident that the late divers in the first plane have the furthest to fly to the formation, asuming no stagering of the exit count between planes.




What's really eveident is you guys are arguing about stupid shit....:D
We had the planes fly differently this year, so the base flew only about 60 degrees of the line of flight.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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