mccordia 73 #76 August 22, 2009 QuoteWhat Tony is trying to say is the new Safety sleeve allows you to reach your risers AND TOGGLES in any case, especially an emergency. when you say new, do you mean new as in 'recent change'? As Ive met several jumpers who have negative experiences with the sleeve system, up to the point of hem installing a working/functional cutaway on the wingsuit themself. Especialy in colder weather enviroments, an additional layer if clothing seems to prevent the system from functioning as advertised. With the sleeve not sliding due to clothing bunching up. Not a single case, but multiple people who complained about it. Imho a serious safety issue which should be adressed. If its a redesign/improvement, then a warning/modification should be offered on older sold systems to warent safety.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #77 August 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat Tony is trying to say is the new Safety sleeve allows you to reach your risers AND TOGGLES in any case, especially an emergency. when you say new, do you mean new as in 'recent change'? As Ive met several jumpers who have negative experiences with the sleeve system, up to the point of hem installing a working/functional cutaway on the wingsuit themself. Especialy in colder weather enviroments, an additional layer if clothing seems to prevent the system from functioning as advertised. With the sleeve not sliding due to clothing bunching up. Not a single case, but multiple people who complained about it. Imho a serious safety issue which should be adressed. If its a redesign/improvement, then a warning/modification should be offered on older sold systems to warent safety. no, its the same sleeve, we've been using it sucsessfully for about a year now, winning every comp the suit has enterd, and yes, if you want to wear a fleece jacket under then you have to measure over the said jacket, If not then we recommend a sleeveless thermal top with a spandex or long sleeve T under it when its cold,Life is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperGirl 0 #78 August 22, 2009 Especialy in colder weather enviroments, an additional layer if clothing seems to prevent the system from functioning as advertised. With the sleeve not sliding due to clothing bunching up. you ain't supposed to wear that big puffy fur coat underneath your wingsuit, man! seriously, now... it is interesting that you bring this up... and I am curious exactly how much clothing bunching up we are talking about, because I've had no issues with mine. in winter I wear up to 2 layers underneath... one under armour coldgear kinda thing and maybe another polartec layer if it's really freezing and snowing outside. with those on I can still reach just fine, as a matter of fact the sleeve slides even more easily I can only imagine this happening with some really bulky sweatshirt underneath.. which is not the best choice anyway since it can jam zippers and other stuff like that. perhaps the measurements were taken incorrectly. if you plan on jumping the suit a lot in cold weather then you need to measure with the clothes that you'll be wearing underneath... just like you would measure for a tight regular jumpsuit by having some clothes on, and not completely naked. complaining about the suit because there was a lot of bunchy clothing underneath is a bit like complaining that the booties were sliding off my feet cause I was wearing stilettos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #79 August 22, 2009 May I recommend putting some clear documention online on your website on the sleeve system and the situations in which it does and doesnt function. Would suck to read on the incidents forum that someone got into trouble after opening/lowpull or worse because they didnt wear the proper shirt or clothing which your system was measured or designed for. Safety first...its not stuff people should find out after ordering/flying their suit, but should be stated clearly beforehand. Several flyers are having issues with this (hence my comments/questions).JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpsteve 0 #80 August 22, 2009 Safety first is absolutely right. Andreea, I too have issues and I just wear a T-shirt underneath. Think I just need to have the arm width adjusted a little bit. I don't think Jarno was complaining....just trying to find out if there was a new modification to the sleeve system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #81 August 22, 2009 QuoteMay I recommend putting some clear documention online on your website on the sleeve system and the situations in which it does and doesnt function. Would suck to read on the incidents forum that someone got into trouble after opening/lowpull or worse because they didnt wear the proper shirt or clothing which your system was measured or designed for. Safety first...its not stuff people should find out after ordering/flying their suit, but should be stated clearly beforehand. Several flyers are having issues with this (hence my comments/questions). Im sure every system will have its issues, i have also heard of the cuttaway being very hard to use and in some case's not working at all, so.....Life is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperGirl 0 #82 August 22, 2009 Quote Andreea, I too have issues and I just wear a T-shirt underneath. Think I just need to have the arm width adjusted a little bit. that was my point... figuring out how much of this is a suit issue and how much is a measurement issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #83 August 22, 2009 QuoteIm sure every system will have its issues, i have also heard of the cuttaway being very hard to use and in some case's not working at all, so..... So.....thats indeed a very valid reason not to take a critical look at the gear you manufacture and sell. This silly safety thing ey...blech.. Indeed dont educate people on the use and potential problems that should be adressed/payd attention to. Guess Im just bitching....JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #84 August 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteIm sure every system will have its issues, i have also heard of the cuttaway being very hard to use and in some case's not working at all, so..... So.....thats indeed a very valid reason not to take a critical look at the gear you manufacture and sell. This silly safety thing ey...blech.. Indeed dont educate people on the use and potential problems that should be adressed/payd attention to. Guess Im just bitching.... yes, our system is exatly designd around safety, when someone opens there canopy in your face and you have 2 seconds to reach up for a rear riser to get out of there, you think you have time to cutaway??, or if a toggle release's, wham im on it, Stop putting the fear of god into everyone jarno, your talking shop over sanityLife is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
repcool 2 #85 August 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteIm sure every system will have its issues, i have also heard of the cuttaway being very hard to use and in some case's not working at all, so..... So.....thats indeed a very valid reason not to take a critical look at the gear you manufacture and sell. This silly safety thing ey...blech.. Indeed dont educate people on the use and potential problems that should be adressed/payd attention to. Guess Im just bitching.... I read the manual that came with my r-bird and it made it clear not to wear thick layers on the arms. I jump in the cold half the year but nobody ever got frostbite of the elbow, so I don't think you need layers on your arms if your core and head is warm. I had a toggle fire on the 4th jump on my r-bird, I reached up, which was tough because of the G forces that were starting to wind up, but easy to do in the suit. Released toggles and flew. In my Phantom I would have needed to cut away the wings. That is just the way that jump went...I will keep you in the loop if it changes in the future on another jump. Simon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #86 August 23, 2009 QuoteStop putting the fear of god into everyone jarno, your talking shop over sanity Talking shop over sanity? 4 out of 5 tonysuit flyers I met at boogies the past months complained about the system not working. One couldnt reach up due to a fast spinning canopy, which didnt enable him to slightly lift the legs, which seemed needed to be able to reach up. Most couldnt get the sleeve to really move over the arms when trying to reach up. One due to thick clothing, others just regardless of what they were wearing. One was so scared he modified the suit to have a cutaway. Whatever the reason, be it sizing or errors in measuring. It seemed like a question worth asking, as people ARE having issues with it. Look several post up. Same story. It was an inquiry/question. Shame to see you cant take it as anything other than a personal attack...it seems like a subject worth looking into a bit further...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #87 August 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteStop putting the fear of god into everyone jarno, your talking shop over sanity One couldnt reach up due to a fast spinning canopy, which didnt enable him to slightly lift the legs, which seemed needed to be able to reach up. ok here's what you do when your canopy is spinning you round so fast the G's hurt, you cutaway the malfunctioned main, you go back into freefall and pull your reserve, its what all the other disciplines do and it seems to work fine, Easy reach arms are great for helping with line twists but sometimes you gotta just get rid of it, Unless of course you reach up and pull the "high" riser down level with the low one.Life is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #88 August 23, 2009 Sorry...forgot that linetwist are uncommon on reserves, and are not an issue tonysuit jumpers have to deal with. The video of the guy needinghis cutaway to free the arms pinned down by the risers is probably also one to not worry about...As are the other scenarios one could think of. The fact that several jumpers have problems with it is of no concern I guess. Saving a few bucks on production-cost is always easier than offering a cutaway as an option JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #89 August 23, 2009 QuoteSaving a few bucks on production-cost is always easier than offering a cutaway as an optionWink I got my first wing cut-away this year. I managed to get some fabric into the zipper on opening. It can happen any day. I would not buy a suit without it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #90 August 23, 2009 I've had 5 cutaways in a little over 500 jumps (spinning line twists) and about a dozen spinning line twists that didn't reach the point where they needed to be cutaway (that's not an exaggeration - a few of you saw my compendium of spinning skwrl videos). All of them happened while wearing a Tonysuit Mach 1 with the safety sleeve. In all of them, I was able to reach my risers or the lines above them (if I hadn't been able to, the cutaway ratio would have been a lot higher). My personal take on it is that the safety sleeve works. If it doesn't work for an individual jumper because it doesn't fit right, then he or she ought to let Tonysuits know, and get it fixed. But it's not the case that the design is somehow inherently flawed as Jarno implies. It's dirt stupid simple to test it. (Can you reach your arm out without unzipping? If so, yay. If not, get arm widened. Lather, rinse, repeat.) (And as for my malfunction ratio, I had really crappy body position on deployment. My tail wing was habitually open. I got good coaching from some great instructors, and have since solved the problem. On the other hand, I'm almost off AFF on my reserve!)Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #91 August 25, 2009 As fun as all this is, back to the OP, I'd second (er...third, fourth, or twentieth) the recommendation to demo as many different suits as you can. I went to F&D 5 this year looking forward to demoing a T-Bird. From all the reviews, it seemed like the ideal suit for me. At F&D, I put about 4 jumps on it, and quickly realized it just wasn't for me. I wound up ordering a Phantom2 (or rather, a Shadow, b/c the P2 was just a little bit too much armwing for my light-ass self). The T-Bird was floaty - and because of that, I almost took it on a high-altitude jump - but its flying style just didn't suit me. It felt like the suit was flying me, not the other way around. And yet others love it. So I'm in the opposite camp as some of those upthread who prefer the T-Bird to the P2, etc. & that's all it comes down to - personal preference. All of the suit manufacturers have made tremendous advances over the years, and I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. The point is, you won't know which one you really like until you try it out. Demo, demo, demo. Tony, PF, BM, or FYB might be the best fit for your body type and flying style. There's only one way to tell for sure. Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #92 August 26, 2009 Yeah it is the first time I saw someone tossing a suit of the plane with no one in it. Ha.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
