kallend 1,623 #151 November 11, 2009 QuoteThe point man does not fly off of anybody else. As the formation is built off of him, it makes sense to measure off of him. To me anyway. I don't care. Any number of guys flying together looks good to me. Good luck with the record! Thanks. As a "tail end charlie" in this formation, I can't see the leader at all, so I'm certainly not flying off him. It makes no sense to evaluate my performance based on someone I can't see. With a best fit criterion, no one person is special, it represents the entire team's performance.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stoney3434 0 #152 November 11, 2009 It makes no sense to you because you never took the time to read my earlier long boring posts. Assuming the leader is in the exact intended position as is shown in the pre-declared formation's drawing (with whatever type of judging criteria is used ) DOES NOT mean that anyone is going to be judging "your" perfomance based on someone you can't see,... It simply reflects the TRUTH ( the fact of the matter that the after the first 15 seconds after departure,... the "flock leader" is flying straight on a heading, remaining totally still and stable,( and therefore maintaining a constant speed ) so that those who "can see him" can take and correct their positions relative to his .... The leader should never and WILL NEVER have the intent to ove or actually will move to correct his position. He cares nothing about flying in a position by refence to ANY OTHER Flyers ....( even if a wingman flys out in front of him) If those behind the leader make small errors in their intended positions,.. that does not effect the leader. He can't be burbled at all.... and he can't see them. A man or woman chosen as the leader of any intended predeclared formation SHOULD BE a good enough flyer to "at least remain totally still for 90 to 120 seconds once he or she has assumed their desired heading and speed ( ie body position) . I know Jeff, Justin, Scott Bland, Puple Mike, Gray Mike etc DO EXACTLY THAT when they are leading because I have followed them,...( and THEY DON"T MOVE until break-off ) If you believe that not assuming and not having a non-moving leader isn't a valid assumption for the intended predeclared formation as a basic starting point for judging what happens behind and around them ,..then it really wouldn't make sense to "even try" to put together a big way . Just put any-ol-flyer up there in front and watch what ripples through the formation as everyone trys to correct for that one bad leader's movement. I beleive Jeff puts better flyers up front behind him because he knows they will make only small minor corrections to their spacing off him and off each other rather than the larger corrections and over- corrections that lesser skilled flyers might make . In this group of the core 10 to 15 flyers behind and to the side of Jeff (who either can see him or at least know what part of him they should never see) ..."each" have to be the smoothest correcting, best spatial sensing and the most stable "in reference to others flyers" so that the plane leaders can home in initially on this core and take their spacing from this core group (the "core base" if you want to call it that) The plane leaders and their wingmen/stingers also are selected from the very best of the "reference to others flyers" so they can position themselves spatially somewhat correctly off the leader and the formation core ( initially as they are descending and moving forward into their positions... As I watched it last year,..the plane leaders and their wingmen/stingers actually then acted as a sort of "spatial correcting mechanism" on each side mid way down the front lines ( and possibly in the middle of this year's formation ) They each have fantastic overall situational and positional awareness and are looking down lines /across lines ahead and to each side all at the same time...and making only slow smooth corrections. I suspect that will always leave the somewhat lessor skiled flyers in the back ( as it shoud be) with some really good flyers at the back corners and maybe in the middle to provide a backline cross-checking ability. The only allowance off dead center I can see for a Leader that might be considered is a very small varience of a foot in each direction for possible turbulance and if turbulence hits the leader of "ANY big way" the whole formation is likely to be thrown into total dissaray as each flyer has different reactions and different parts of the turbulence to deal with. I know all this is too long to read,...but I hope it is taken into the thought patterns of whoever is actually making up a group trying to refine the judging criteria for the better. Personally,..I want to always be part of something and of groups who are always trying grow and become better at what they are doing---even if it is just having fun. Life is what happens while we are making other plans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #153 November 11, 2009 Quote It makes no sense to you because you never took the time to read my earlier long boring posts. . I read them. I just disagree with your reasoning and your conclusions. Peace.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stoney3434 0 #154 November 12, 2009 Fair enough Thanks and sorry it was Brian who said he found them too long to read. I think I'm starting to get too "attached" personally to all this, since it seems so simple to me. So anyway, I've said my stuff ... Thanks for at least reading my thoughts. Everyone has a right to their own conclusions ! That's what freedom "is" ! Fly safe...Life is what happens while we are making other plans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
