USPA Recognizes Wingsuit Record Category

[kallend 1,623]

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I suggest allowing any regular predefined lattice. Requiring it to be a square lattice is unnecessarily constraining.

But is it a pre-defined lattice with a pre-defined deviation in lengths between each lattice point? If so, then the "square grid" that Taya proposed is just one possible manifestation of that, right?

Lengths and/or angles. For trigonal or hexagonal grids the angles would not be 90 degrees but the lengths would be the same.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SuperGirl 0]

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I suggest allowing any regular predefined lattice. Requiring it to be a square lattice is unnecessarily constraining.

I really like the predefined regular lattice idea!
The predefined part is key though.
Need to declare it before the jump. otherwise, almost anything would fit...

[Taz 0]

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So right now we cannot get records with any aerobatics or 3d formations. For aerobatics - we need to look at freestyle and artistic freefly in order to come up with some moves or criteria for those to be judged on too.

Aerobatics are more conducive to competition than records. For what it's worth, I put in a preliminary presentation to include an artistic wingsuiting competition at Nationals by adding it to Section 6 of the SCM. The Competition Committee was interested, but were not able to take it further at this Board meeting (not enough time!). To move forward with this idea, we should hold smaller competitions around the country and collect video illustrating wingsuit aerobatic dive flows. We would ideally be able to show that we have at least four qualified teams per category (i.e. intermediate and open) as required for other disciplines.

Regarding other observations on large wingsuit formation judging:

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I've never been a fan of the spacing used at the record.. and unless you scale the grid down a tight formation will not be judged as successful..

The currently accepted USPA grid is scalable. It doesn't have to conform to any particular spacing as long as everyone is relatively in their slot.

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What will happen then if this go into effect and we want to judging criteria to be different/better than the current method

The proposal I put online is already in effect as of last Sunday, but I'm sure amendments based on strongly presented cases will be welcome. Having something to improve upon is a good thing, as illustrated by all the strong thinking here. Attempting large formations, safely, is one important way to see how they work, and how the judging works. I would suggest getting out there and trying this grid - and other configurations.

Wingsuit Sequential hasn't yet been added as a record category - let's do it! Want to include 3D? Organize events and put together a proposal! If anyone wants to do this and wants to chat about my experience with the Competition Committee and Board, please PM me and I'd be happy to talk and help as much as possible.

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if was classified as a 'good' formation based upon the new criteria, I'd strongly be against this judging.

Judging standards aren't there to classify formations as "good" or not. They are there to provide a clear minimum standard for setting official records, which in turn allows greater opportunities for our discipline - for sponsorship, competition, cooperation, and event organizing.

Use this standard to get out there and prove that we can make perfect-looking formations that can be ratified by impartial judges. Set ridiculously great state records. Like downsizing canopies - if you think this standard is a slow bus, then wring it out and show we're ready for the next step. THEN, propose the next step in detail and take it, with your evidence, to the USPA.

This sport is always a work in progress. Evolution is what makes it so great. Waiting for perfection means waiting forever, but nothing is written in stone.

I'm happy to see all the constructive feedback and thinking. I hope some of it gets channeled into even more innovation.

Happy flying!
-T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[Zeemax 0]

Hey Taya,

It probably got lost in all the other posts, but I was wondering why a duration based element of the judging criteria was not included?

As it stands, if you take enough photos and adjust the grid enough you can make pretty much anything fit. If there was a video related timed duration required for the formation it would truly demonstrate to our peers that we have a skill, rather than fluke?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[sdctlc 0]

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Hey Taya,

It probably got lost in all the other posts, but I was wondering why a duration based element of the judging criteria was not included?

As it stands, if you take enough photos and adjust the grid enough you can make pretty much anything fit. If there was a video related timed duration required for the formation it would truly demonstrate to our peers that we have a skill, rather than fluke?

There use to be a 3 sec rule for RW formations but that went away as well awhile back. I am guessing it is the same here in terms of thinking and keeping in line with the get a picture mentality, not the video for a period of time.. Just a thought

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Taz 0]

Hi,
Yep, as Callantine said - there is no duration requirement for other records. We are in line with other disciplines, in every aspect of this judging system.

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[The111 0]

Taya, can I get some comments from the grid-gods on the two pics I posted here?

I think the square one technically qualifies... right? But I think if the diamond one could qualify (no right angles) it would be the better choice.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Taz 0]

Hey Matt,
There are no "grid-gods" - only a single judging standard that has already been adopted by the USPA (and PASA, and the APF and BPA are in progress).

I'm not a judge, but the formation does fit into the judging grid when I look at your photo.
The official judging grid is scalable but has fixed aspect ratio. As far as the right angles are concerned, it is designed to make very large formations possible - and based on the experience of the 71-way at Elsinore last year, it is the best design we have. Hopefully we'll be able to show something beautiful and officially judgeable in November this year.

For state records, though they are smaller formations, I hope everyone will be able to see that it's important to start somewhere with a discipline that has previously gone unrecognized by the USPA Competition Committee (and other countries' judges as well). This way all attempts can be compared and judged by the same standard.

To submit your footage for a state record, download the State Record Form from the USPA SCM online (Section 12-3), fill it out by adding a category in the list ("Wingsuit Largest Formation"), and adding the participants' information and judging signatures as directed on the form.

You will need that one still photo, the grid file which you obviously have, and video of the jump (to show continuity). One of the judges for a state record can be the S&TA. Then send the completed form, photo, and footage, along with credit card info or check to cover the fee, to USPA Headquarters. You will receive however many certificates you ordered (minimum one) in the mail when HQ has processed the record.

-T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[mccordia 73]

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only a single judging standard that has already been adopted by the USPA (and PASA, and the APF and BPA are in progress).

With the grid being pushed quite active, wouldnt an evaluative 'pause' or trial year, after which you evaluate and accept input from the whole community based on the currently accepted USPA grid-standard help raise the judging parameters to a standard thats use-able for many years to come? As now we seem to be locking ourselves down on something that may seem like bliss now (recognition! whooho!) but could severly work against us in the future if we ever try to massivly change/update/upgrade the judging parameters.

Seeing the attached 25 way pass judging as a 25 way diamond/record, I think it clearly show there is a lot of room for further development, thinking and (public!!!) brainstorming. I wouldnt want to see a picture like this posted as a record anywhere. Would you?

Its a community thing, so it should be open to feedback from the whole community IMHO?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lurch 0]

Predefined regular lattice? That sounds almost cross cultural somehow, like something the japanese would do. I dunno if I could back something like that. I seldom eat salads, but when I do I prefer a more random distribution of the vegetables.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[kallend 1,623]

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You will receive however many certificates you ordered (minimum one) in the mail when HQ has processed the record.

-T

Taya,

Did you ever get certificates for the Summerfest 25-way?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Seeing the attached 25 way pass judging as a 25 way diamond/record, I think it clearly show there is a lot of room for further development, thinking and (public!!!) brainstorming. I wouldnt want to see a picture like this posted as a record anywhere. Would you?

Good job it actually looked like my avatar, then!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SuperGirl 0]

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Predefined regular lattice? That sounds almost cross cultural somehow, like something the japanese would do.

ahem, what's wrong with cross cultural?


Funny thing is, since you brought up the old lattice discussion, Matt's pictures are a case in point... with a squashed grid fitting much more nicely on a formation that otherwise looks pretty nice & symmetrical

[Butters 0]

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Seeing the attached 25 way pass judging as a 25 way diamond/record, I think it clearly show there is a lot of room for further development, thinking and (public!!!) brainstorming. I wouldnt want to see a picture like this posted as a record anywhere. Would you?

No, that is why the grid is a joke ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Taz 0]

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With the grid being pushed quite active

The grid is actually being "adopted quite active" rather than "pushed". I have never been to Australia and I've never skydived in the UK, but people in those two places are interested of their own accord.

Yet another way to look at the situation is that without a recognized standard to start out with, there is no basis for future improvement. This is an evaluative time, but one during which "the community" is actually motivated and allowed to set records and have them judged by a fair system (rather than only the most vocal participants in this forum).

locking ourselves down***

There is no "lockdown", and no need for fear-based "what-if" computer illustrations. Life moves forward, not in pause mode. Trade in your disaster-scenario illustrations for a ticket to Elsinore. Come help us build something. Or organize your own and take that risk of being responsible for something progressive. It's more fun than worrying!
-T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[Taz 0]

Did you ever get certificates for the Summerfest 25-way?***

Yes, the Chicago 25-way is the current Illinois state AND US National record. If you want a paper certificate I believe you can contact HQ and order (they cost money!)

The history of all state records is kept online at the USPA website as well.

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Seeing the attached 25 way pass judging as a 25 way diamond/record, I think it clearly show there is a lot of room for further development, thinking and (public!!!) brainstorming. I wouldnt want to see a picture like this posted as a record anywhere. Would you?

That 25 way counted as good? No wonder people outside of wingsuiting have a problem accepting the rules for setting records. To some people it looks like a joke.

P.S. Does any have a link to a copy of the rules for wingsuit records? I had a link to the USPA web site but can not find it anymore. Thanks.

[Taz 0]

"That 25-way" is a figment of Jarno's imagination, not a standing record.

And people both within and outside the discipline have already accepted that objective judging criteria are a great place to start helping people achieve real goals in the sky and grow wingsuiting.

I'm out of here to go and organize a national charity wingsuit record that will benefit kids and grow a sponsorship base for wingsuiting. If I spent half as much time defending this stuff as people do criticizing it, I'd never have time to organize anything

Blue Skies and happy complaining , -T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[timmyfitz 0]

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"That 25-way" is a figment of Jarno's imagination, not a standing record.

And people both within and outside the discipline have already accepted that objective judging criteria are a great place to start helping people achieve real goals in the sky and grow wingsuiting.

Blue Skies and happy complaining , -T

Sorry I didn't make it clear. What I meant was "that 25 way would count as good if it really happened?". I know it was just a picture.

There are also "both people within and outside of the discipline" that have voiced concern about the arbitrary rules.

Not complaining here. Just pointing out some possible flaws the way the rules stand. Every time a new discipline comes about, there will be growing pains.

[The111 0]

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P.S. Does any have a link to a copy of the rules for wingsuit records? I had a link to the USPA web site but can not find it anymore. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it's in the first post of this thread.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[lurch 0]

Nothings wrong with it, I just think predefined and regular works better with sushi, and salads don't really lend themselves well to structured presentation. If you were going to try to do it anyway strictly for the art of it, I'd suggest predefined regular tomatoes or radishes instead. The color would make the pattern stand out better.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[DSE 3]

Taya posted the rules above.
The Grid can now be downloaded from
http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Downloads/tabid/84/Default.aspx

IMO, it's a good thing to be moving forward and making efforts to discover a measurable standard. The grid is a good first step. However, Matt's posted pix;
Here
And here demonstrate subjectivity vs objectivity.
The current standard doesn't seem to allow easily repeatable results and further, allows aesthetically poor formations to be fit into the grid if its stretched, pulled, scaled enough. IMHO, the grid is a terrific starting point. It's established that we fly in a pre-determined box. The shape and size of the box don't matter. The problem I have with the grid is that the wingsuit community wasn't allowed to offer input on it, and not one of the people who voted for it have ever once donned a wingsuit. I like Kallend and Andreea's ideas for an improving direction. Perhaps other options are out there as well. Yet...when one person asked about helping to improve the current grid system, the return email consisted of this, and nothing else.
It's exciting that individuals are applying creative energy and taking steps to improve the system, and they deserve a lot of respect for stepping up with something vs nothing. At least I feel this way.

[The111 0]

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Seeing the attached 25 way pass judging as a 25 way diamond/record, I think it clearly show there is a lot of room for further development, thinking and (public!!!) brainstorming. I wouldnt want to see a picture like this posted as a record anywhere. Would you?

Its a community thing, so it should be open to feedback from the whole community IMHO?

Jarno, I have very mixed feelings about the grid. I agree that it is ridiculous that something like the "figment" you posted could be taken seriously as a record. At the same time... I don't have a better alternative to offer. I seem to remember you having a good idea once but I can't fully remember it. I think there are parts of the grid concept which fall very short, but compared to what we had before (absolutely nothing)... I can only consider it a step forward.

If you think about it, one could draw a 400-way RW record that looks like crap but still has all the grips (a 400-way upside down funnel, for example), and I guess technically it would qualify since it has all the grips... but it would never happen in reality.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SuperGirl 0]

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happy complaining

Maybe all the complaining isn't ill-meant. maybe it's supposed to be taken as constructive criticism, just not properly expressed that way.

I feel like we get too carried away in forum wars here... it's always some sort of "us vs. them" issue, some black/white... I doubt anyone wants to take down the approved records and undo the hard work that has been done. We're all grateful for it. You're not expected to "defend" the grid. What a lot of people are trying to say (I hope) is that there is room for improvement.

Taya, your efforts are much appreciated. All respect to you for pushing the sport further. Same goes for the other boys on the organizing team. Love you all very much!! None of this would be happening without you!

But think of this as writing a paper. You get your first draft, you sweat through it and to you it's the most awesome thing in the world. Then you get feedback from your reviewer. It looks like they totally trashed it!! All your work turned inside out! But that's not true at all. You take the suggestions and rework through your paper and make it better. Then you get it reviewed again. And trashed some more. And you rework it even more. And so on, until you end up publishing a very polished version... None of the criticism you got along the way was meant to turn you back.. it was just there to help you improve something you'd already done pretty well, but that had room for getting even better.

The grid so far has been a fantastic start. All I'm saying is don't hate those who point out its flaws, but keep an open mind... filter out all the bullshit and in the end some of the criticism can end up being very useful in the long run.

[SuperGirl 0]

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Nothings wrong with it, I just think predefined and regular works better with sushi, and salads don't really lend themselves well to structured

sushi is better than salads anyway :) :)
(I have a feeling even Jeff N will agree with this one)

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I'd suggest predefined regular tomatoes or radishes instead. The color would make the pattern stand out better.
-B

Lurch, you and Veggie Reggie would make a great couple.