0
DSE

Tandem Flybys:

Recommended Posts

Just curious what folks think of tandem flybys in wingsuits.
If you answer with #5, please define what is close/too close/far enough away.

If you answer #1, please define how close you're flying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It really doesn't matter what "we think", but instead what the "tandem master thinks". I have done a few, but with only the permission of the TI, and they know me well.
With the thousands of tandems I have done, I would not feel safe with "just any wingsuiter" doing a flyby, even on me. If that were to happen, I would have a few choice words or more for them after landing.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No.

It's like pissing in your food bowl. Tandems bring new people to skydiving. Tandems bring money to the DZs. That allows us to get on fancy planes, get affordable lift tickets, and have plenty of dropzones available wherever we go. Tandems are the food bowl.

Why add more complications and risk for those who don't know any better (the tandem students)? Why add the likelihood of more negative press toward tandems? You know that someone is going to screw up and hit a tandem if this practice is condoned.

Go play with knowledgeable jumpers and buzz their canopies if they're in agreement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you answer with #5, please define what is close/too close/far enough away.

If you answer #1, please define how close you're flying.



Don't forget to add how you measure the distance. ;)

I would estimate on the pre-arranged flybys I've done, I've been 20 yards away. Closest flyby I've ever seen was when someone flew past my right side about 10 inches away just after I finished opening. :o
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Why add more complications and risk for those who don't know any better (the tandem students)? Why add the likelihood of more negative press toward tandems? You know that someone is going to screw up and hit a tandem if this practice is condoned.



I can't really argue with your main point (which is ultimately up to the DZ and TM), but as far as the part I bolded... if only competent flyers are allowed to do this, then I don't see anybody ever hitting anybody.

Here is a thread that was started because of a photo I took of a tandem flyby:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2680686

In it I made the point (which was never responded to) that most people would agree that 10 feet is too close, and most would also agree that 1 mile is plenty far enough. SOMEWHERE between 1 mile and 10 feet is a distance that is plenty safe enough, but the student can still see the wingsuit and smile. I believe it's 50 feet.

Another point I made is that when you drive to the dropzone, chances are you might drive down a 2-lane road with a 50mph speed limit... in which case you are passing cars less than 5 feet away at 100mph+ relative speeds. It would be just as easy for one of those drivers to veer into your lane as it would for any decent wingsuit pilot to somehow veer off course radically and into a canopy he was passing at a safe distance.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flybys is ok if:
0. you have enough experience in flocking and have perfect control of you movements.
1. agreed with TI
2. booth of you have flight plan. If TI not following the plan then flyby should be aborted. At our DZ we decided that if tandem flying along runway then it is ok for flyby, any other directions prohibits flyby.
3. when you closer than 50m you visible for TI.
4. when you closer than 50m you at level with tandem pair or lower. In case of any sudden maneuver from you side you will pass below tandem.
5. when you getting closer than 50m you not higher than passenger leg then it is ok to go to even to 3m close.

We have 5 TI and all of them is ok for this rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From a tandem master and a wingsuit pilot.

Plan your dive dive your plan, no surprises, mutual consent from both parties. and dont come near me on a tandem with less than 100 wingsuit jumps and I know your skill level!


---------------------------------------------
If you don't have wings you will never fly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


It really doesn't matter what "we think", but instead what the "tandem master thinks". I have done a few, but with only the permission of the TI, and they know me well.
With the thousands of tandems I have done, I would not feel safe with "just any wingsuiter" doing a flyby, even on me. If that were to happen, I would have a few choice words or more for them after landing.



Yeah, cause I'm sure a wingsutier would just randomly decide to fly right by you under canopy without your permission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have done flybys, but I do think that they are dangerous. Too many inexperienced wingsuiters see flybys done and think they can go out and do them as well. Flybys should NEVER be done without the TI's permission. I personally know a couple of wingsuiters who will go out and flyby a tandem whenever they can find one, with or without the TI's consent/knowledge. That is fucked up. If I was a TI and that happened to me, I would go meet that asshole out in the landing area and pop his reserve. If I was a DZO, I would not allow tandem flybys at my DZ. There is too much liability involved with that. Contrary to what most skydivers (and a lot of DZO's) believe, liability waivers are not bulletproof or absolute. I also think its irresponsible for a TI to give permission for a flyby. They are putting their student's lives in someone elses hands. The only person who should ever have the responsibility of keeping the student safe is the TI. I know a couple of TI's who will try to get the wingsuiters on their load to give them flybys. No matter how cool it may be for the passenger to look and see the flyby, it is an unneccessary risk to take. Being a TI, it is your responsibility to give your passenger a fun ride as well as minimize the risks involved with the jump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yeah, cause I'm sure a wingsutier would just randomly decide to fly right by you under canopy without your permission.


I've seen it done many times. Yes, there are people in the skydive community out there that are stupid enough to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am in the "I do them a lot" category. I also routinely get flown by when I am doing tandems by my super-experienced wingsuit buddies.

A few notes:

-Never, ever fly by a tandem without that TM's permission. It will get you grounded, banned, or get your ass kicked.

-Always plan the dive and then dive the plan with no exceptions whatsoever. This is particularly important when two or more of you are flying by.

-Never fly over a tandem from the rear and over the front of the canopy. You will burble the tandem and then likely get your ass kicked. Also, it's almost impossible for you and your tandem student to see your approach, which is the most amazing part of the visual.

-When I am doing the tandem, I always dump right around 5,500 feet and then turn straighth into the wind. This gives the wingsuiter plenty of time to get by you prior to pull altitude and gives him a non-erratic target to line up on. I always have my tandem swoopers fly by from left to right or right to left, about 20 feet or so right in front of me.

-If am am swooping the tandem, it's always the last pair out of the plane. This is always pre-coordinated. I step out right after the tandem exit and fly in a circle over the top of them, always keeping their drogue in sight. Upon tandem canopy opening I set up my dive well off to the side and make my move. I dive hard down to them and then flatten out about 200 feet away and off to the side. That puts you screaming across their bow not losing any altitude at all and gives the tandem passenger a phenomenal display of our wingsuit's capability.

-I love it both ways. I love being flown by and I love flying by.

-There are lots and lots of tandem instructors who will NEVER let you fly by. Don't EVER push your luck by taking those "targets of opportunity." At Z-Hills it will definitely get you grounded and likely get your ass kicked if you happen to do it to Randy Lopez.

-There are also lots of tandem instructors who don't mind it. You just have to find that person, gain his trust, arrange it so that his group is last out, and then you just have to REALLY keep your eye on the tandem while they are in droguefall.

Be safe out there,

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive done some flybys to the same TI with his permission. Many here know my DZO, and you know that if I buzz him without his approval I better land in the swamp and never go back to the DZ. :ph34r:

We use the same plan always but we go over it before each jump. He or I will also talk to the passenger and explain whats gonna happen after opening. He dumps around 5500 and turns upwind, I exit around 5 seconds after them always keeping the drogue insight, and I start setting me up so that my approach will be diagonal to them, coming from the front at 45degrees in a direction that will put me around 100' away from them and have me opening away from the airplane's line of flight and canopy traffic. Most of the times the approach is from the TI right to left, putting me north of everybody. When I fly by them, he turns the canopy around so they can follow my flight and watch my opening.
The TI seems to enjoy it, I like it, and the passengers love it. Like when the video guy ask them what was the favorite part of the jump, and they say: 'when I saw the guy flying with the bat suit'. There is even 1 jumper that confessed to me that my flyby is the reason they took up the sport.

Almost forgot, if the spot or anything else is not perfect for the planned approach (ex. TI cant afford to turn upwind and wait for me, etc) I abort the mission, he knows that if Im not there by 3500' it means Im not going. Has not happened yet.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just curious what folks think of tandem flybys in wingsuits.



Is this a genuine child like curiousity about sport jumpers safely sharing airspace with tandems or phishing for proof that the wingsuit community is out of control and not good at self policing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Is this a genuine child like curiousity about sport jumpers safely sharing airspace with tandems or phishing for proof that the wingsuit community is out of control and not good at self policing?



I'm genuinely curious about what people think about swooping tandems. I don't know that my curiousity is "child-like" but it certainly has no ulterior motive.

I have swooped tandems, and know it's dangerous. Each of the swoops I've done have been with the permission/encouragement of the TI, and with good communication on the ground prior to doing it, and getting the permission of the student passenger.
Even though they're not "common" for me I've done them.

What if the TI has to cut away just as the flyby is occuring and the WS flies into it? What if the WS strikes the lines or canopy and cuts either one?
What if, god forbid, wind or "other" causes the TI or WS to be off course for a pre-planned flyby and there is a body to body impact?

Lots of "what-ifs" that have me re-considering flybys at any distance. Being told by an FAA representative at the BOD meeting that the FAA is "closely watching the wingsuit community" (mostly due to cloud and tandem issues) got me to thinking and wanting to ask questions.

That said, the community "being out of control" and not being "good at self-policing" are two _entirely_ different discussions. IMO, the community is far from "out of control." In fact, I think it's got a pretty good grip on what's going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Spot, read my last post in the other thread. I am positive we had the same conversation with the same person.



Chuck, I can't find the "other thread" you're referring to, but in the tandem/timing thread, you refer to Tom Noonan. I have not had this discussion with Tom, it was with Randy Ottinger (USPA Government liason) and an FAA official.

Specifically, I was told that the moment there is a tandem/wingsuit incident that involves any injury to the student, skydiving across the US will be *immediately* shut down, all tandem rigs grounded by the FAA, just like they ground aircraft that have an "unknown" or known problem that needs repair. This grounding would last for the duration of any investigation. Said grounding might be a day, month, or up to a year.
Empty threat or serious concern? I dunno. I just know that these guys chased after me when I left the meeting a little early. Randy privately mentioned some names of "concern" to me because of YouTube and other posted vids/photos.
It's kind of funny, we go out and do really stupid stuff and then post it on YouTube as quick as we can to tell our "no shit there I was" story, and in this case, it's bitten our butts. FAA is watching us now, according to these guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Two sources of what? that there was an incident or that the FAA is watchihng the interaction of wngsuits and tandems? your source says there was an incicdent. Spots source says the FAA is closely watching for an incident that injures a tandem passenger.
I think that tandem flybys that are closer than you would want another canopy deploying next to you are stupidly close, becasue you are subjecting someone to a significant risk that has no knowledge of the risk. Even at distances they should be planned out on the ground with all tandems on the load knowing what is going on, with planned areas for the flyby and no fly areas.
IT would not bother me if there was BSR that said no wingsuit in fight is allowed within 1000 feet of a tandem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0