US Wingsuit instruction - what do YOU think?

[kallend 1,621]

Well?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[likestojump 3]

no matter what requirements are imposed, the idiots will find ways to be idiots.

wasn't the dude who fell out of his harness this year getting more or less formal instruction ? So much for reqs ...

let's not overregulate the fun out of the sport.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

No one with under 200 skydives has any business flying a wingsuit. I once thought there were exceptions. I even took someone up with 150 skydives who was the most heads up and intelligent guy around yet he still managed to completely blow the flight plan. It's too much to add to someone who hasn't dialed the basics.

I also believe that proper instruction should be given to those who are not D license holders. That proper instruction should come from someone who knows how to teach skydiving.

Here's what I suggest.

- Manufacturers require USPA Coach rating to receive certification.
- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit. Instruction from experienced flyer or manufacturer's instructor HIGHLY recommend.
- Minimum D license to fly a wingsuit. Instruction recommended.

The real key here is requiring a C license to fly a suit and requiring a Coach rating to become an instructor with a manufacturer.

The USPA Instructor rating is excessive because A) these are licensed skydivers, not actual "students" and B) a large part of the instructor's role is to show how to assemble, don, and care for a particular make of suit. A USPA WI rating doesn't really work with those two.

[Skwrl 56]

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No one with under 200 skydives has any business flying a wingsuit. I once thought there were exceptions. I even took someone up with 150 skydives who was the most heads up and intelligent guy around yet he still managed to completely blow the flight plan. It's too much to add to someone who hasn't dialed the basics.

I also believe that proper instruction should be given to those who are not D license holders. That proper instruction should come from someone who knows how to teach skydiving.

Here's what I suggest.

- Manufacturers require USPA Coach rating to receive certification.
- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit. Instruction from experienced flyer or manufacturer's instructor HIGHLY recommend.
- Minimum D license to fly a wingsuit. Instruction recommended.

The real key here is requiring a C license to fly a suit and requiring a Coach rating to become an instructor with a manufacturer.

One question: on the coach certification issue, what do you do for manufacturers who don't have an instructor certification program (in other words, those who don't have "branded instructors")? I mean, your solution could be applied to the BMI and Pheonix Fly programs, but since there's no "Tonysuit Instructor" program, for instance, it would treat some manufacturers differently than others.

Besides, if I understand what you're proposing, you're basically asking the manufacturers (nicely) to adopt a Coach rating requirement. Presumably, if they thought they should do that, they would have already done it, right?

(I'm not quibbling with the coach rating requirement - whether you require that or not is a different issue - but I'm pointing out an issue with the manufacturer-driven approach. My suspicion is that none of the manufacturers will want to do it unless they all do it...)

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[bdrake529 0]

From the Phoenix-Fly website page http://phoenix-fly.com/pfi.htm:

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To become a PFI (via options 1 & 2) you must satisfy the following criteria:
• An experienced, current and licensed skydiver
• A knowledgeable and capable wingsuit pilot
• Have at least 100 wingsuit flights
• Holder of Coach or Instructor rating (Instructor or teaching experience outside of skydiving may also be considered)

Brian Drake

[Skwrl 56]

Thanks for that info, Brian. I was wrong.

I'm sure some Birdman Instructor could let us know whether they require the same...

Of course, it doesn't address the other issue (the question of what you do if there's no branded instructor).

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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One question: on the coach certification issue, what do you do for manufacturers who don't have an instructor certification program (in other words, those who don't have "branded instructors")?

How about this:

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- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit. Instruction from USPA Coach with at least 100 wingsuit skydives HIGHLY recommend.

[bdrake529 0]

http://www.bird-man.com/index.cgi?n=skydivers&q=instructors

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Requirements[for BMI]


There must be a minimum of three candidates for the course. The minimum requirements for the candidates are a valid national or international D license or equivalent, and 500 skydives (of which 100 wingsuit jumps).

Brian Drake

[Butters 0]

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- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit.

What does an individual with 200 jumps and a C-license have the an individual with 200 jumps and an A-license doesn't have that is beneficial towards wingsuiting?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Skwrl 56]

So unless I'm missing something, the "Coach rating or a D" thing is already in the manufacturer-branded programs, right? (I guess what I'm wondering out loud is if there are any other manufacturer-branded instruction programs in the US... Does S-Fly have such a program? Any others?)

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[normiss 620]

I suggest fewer threads wasting space discussing the same topic.
This is number five.

[LouDiamond 1]

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http://www.bird-man.com/index.cgi?n=skydivers&q=instructors

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Requirements[for BMI]


There must be a minimum of three candidates for the course. The minimum requirements for the candidates are a valid national or international D license or equivalent, and 500 skydives (of which 100 wingsuit jumps).

The Birdman course has required a coach rating as Chuck posted back in 2003 HERE, along with consideration of other related teaching backgrounds as seen HERE

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kallend 1,621]

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- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit.

What does an individual with 200 jumps and a C-license have the an individual with 200 jumps and an A-license doesn't have that is beneficial towards wingsuiting?

A logbook that has been (hopefully) inspected for accuracy by an S&TA or BOD member, and documented completion of some exercises that require air awareness and experience beyond just flailing around for 200 jumps.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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I suggest fewer threads wasting space discussing the same topic.
This is number five.

No-one forced you to read it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[VectorBoy 0]

I actually know someone with several thousand jumps,a thousand of which wingsuit jumps with only an A license and no interest in changing license.


If an event requires a higher rating he meets with the organizers and usually gets a variance.

[VectorBoy 0]

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Well?

I think its borderline dangerous to even suggest that a better flying instructor can make a first flight less dangerous to an applicant. I think its a full blown insult to try and sell this misleading concept to the governing body. I don't think it would be fair to make GM dropzones enforce this if by some chance it ever actually became a regulation when they have much more valid and pressing safety concerns to deal with now.

The fact of the matter is that every first flight, regardless of experience, should leave the aircraft with no delusions based on instructor capabilities but instead the full knowledge that the outcome of their first flight is based on their prior experience and their preparation in gaining the knowledge and ground training for this new endeavor. Much more emphasis should be placed on the fact of short cutting the current recommendations may be lethal.

Following that logic I don't believe there is a need to do away with the ability of some one with enough experience to self instruct as is currently permitted.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit.

What does an individual with 200 jumps and a C-license have the an individual with 200 jumps and an A-license doesn't have that is beneficial towards wingsuiting?

A logbook that has been (hopefully) inspected for accuracy by an S&TA or BOD member, and documented completion of some exercises that require air awareness and experience beyond just flailing around for 200 jumps.

^ This. ^

[Butters 0]

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- Minimum C license to fly a wingsuit.

What does an individual with 200 jumps and a C-license have the an individual with 200 jumps and an A-license doesn't have that is beneficial towards wingsuiting?

A logbook that has been (hopefully) inspected for accuracy by an S&TA or BOD member, and documented completion of some exercises that require air awareness and experience beyond just flailing around for 200 jumps.

^ This. ^

This is a joke ... Have you looked at the exercises? They're not beneficial towards wingsuiting.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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This is a joke ... Have you looked at the exercises? They're not beneficial towards wingsuiting.

Demonstrating the C license level of stability, recovery from instability (maneuvers), altitude awareness, flying in proximity to others, etc are all relevant to wingsuit flying or any other type of "advanced" freefall. The point is that all these things should be second nature before adding a wingsuit into the mix.

When basics like exits, altitude/landing zone awareness, gear checks, etc aren't ingrained due to low experience or lack of currency, it's a bad idea to add a new level of complexity. This applies to any discipline in skydiving, really, but wingsuits do have some specific issues that the other ones don't have. A student armed with a wingsuit can get very far into the wrong direction, slam into the jump plane, or hide the legstraps they aren't wearing, as we've seen.

Minimum jump and proficiency requirements for wingsuiting help to ensure that first flight candidates won't make such hideous mistakes. The fatalities that sparked all this really have inexperience to blame more than anything.

On the instruction side, there is a way to teach skydiving that isn't the same way to teach other things in life. By requiring a USPA Coach rating, low timers trying out wingsuits are more likely to get effective, consistent instruction. Each suit and instructor has its difference, but the foundation of proven teaching techniques will be there.

[fasted3 0]

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This is a joke ... Have you looked at the exercises? They're not beneficial towards wingsuiting.

Pros:
With 200 jumps you should be able to perform as a skydiver to a certain level. The license requirement is to ensure that you can. You have passed two tests and met other requirements.
It is simple to impliment - No 'C,' no wingsuit.
Cons:
20 bucks for a license.
Being forced to be a cog in a world dominated by power hungry forces determined to control our every move.

But what do I know?

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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Cons:
20 bucks for a license.
Being forced to be a cog in a world dominated by power hungry forces determined to control our every move.

Well... check out the wording on, say, the requirements for night jumps in the SIM:

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1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should meet all the requirements for a USPA B or higher license.

To make a night jump, you need to meet the requirements for a B license, not necessarily have one. Same could apply here. If we just changed one line of the SIM, I think that'd do it. Something like...

SIM 6-9.C.1.a

Meet all the requirements for a USPA D license; or meet all the requirements for a USPA C license and perform at least two successful freefall skydives in a wingsuit under instruction and obversation by a USPA Coach with at least 100 skydives.




Those "two successful freefall skydives" would need to be outlined in the SIM, as well, so coaches have TLOs to sign off the low timer.

[fasted3 0]

Well, you focused on the cons. I thought my pros were pretty good too. I'll be a cog, if it makes sense. I'll support everyone else being one too, if I have to be one. I find slight fault in your proposal, in that not every USPA coach is a good wingsuit flier, and not every good wingsuit flier is a coach. As we are talking about someone with a C license, I submit that the individual is capable of choosing their own coach.
Once again though, I can be a good cog. I don't coach low timers, (less than 500,) on first flights as it is. I don't want to either, but I probably could. I could probably become a coach too, but I'd have to take my wingsuit off to do that.
With all the manuals, videos, wingsuitors to ask, and commentary on here, a person could be expected to have taught themselves a lot before a first flight. They should be responsible for their own skydiving gear. They should have prepared for the FFC on their own. IMO, they are not students, and USPA coaches are for students.
Is this rating needed to coach other disciplines? Aren't other jumpers with an A free to pick anybody to coach them at anything they want? Maybe WS is that special, I don't know.
I'll do what the power hungry forces decide.

But what do I know?

[LetsGoOutside 0]

Oh, I agreed with all your points. I addressed the "con" to see about fixing it. We're on the same page.

So, taking into consideration a lot of what people have said here, here's the gist of what I wrote to Jay Stokes a moment ago.

Changes that we should make to reduce fatalities and injuries to (and aircraft damage from) low timer would be wingsuit skydivers:

1) Change SIM 6.9.C.1.a to the following

"meet all the requirements for a USPA D license; or meet all the requirements for a USPA C license and perform at least two successful wingsuit skydives under instruction and obversation by a USPA Coach and D license holder with at least 100 wingsuit skydives. "



2) Outline two skydives in the SIM section 6-9, akin to the categories in Section 4, so that coaches have a curriculum to teach and TLOs to check against.



3) As inferred above, an appropriate "instructor" to sign off the low-timer holds a USPA Coach rating and has logged at least 100 wingsuit skydives.



The current quidelines do not give rise to strict enforcement and allow for non-proficient jumpers with the right jump numbers (or padded logbook) to get into a wingsuit. This proposal makes it easier on the DZ to enforce some common sense guidelines. The drop zone has a better grasp of who their license and rating holders are than so-and-so's currency level or jump numbers. It's easier for a DZ to say...

"You need a D license"
"I need to see two jumps signed off by a coach in your logbook"
"Let's set you up with [USPA Coach] to clear you for solo wingsuit flights"

This pairs sufficiently experienced and proficient students with sufficiently experienced and proficient instructors, while giving more experienced skydivers the freedom they've earned.

If you're a BMI or other type of "wingsuit instructor" without at least a Coach rating... AT LEAST get an IRM and expose yourself to the USPA's teaching method. Better yet, go ahead and do the Coaches Course. You'll be really surprised at how much you'll learn and how much better of an instructor you will become.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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Is this rating needed to coach other disciplines?

I feel that it should be for anyone who teaches skydiving.

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I find slight fault in your proposal, in that not every USPA coach is a good wingsuit flier, and not every good wingsuit flier is a coach.

You could be a shit hot freeflyer or canopy pilot, but if you can't organize your skills into a lesson plan, teach the lesson plan effectively, and observe and debrief, your student won't benefit from your instruction. A student will get more from a mediocre wingsuit pilot with solid teaching ability than a badass wingsuit pilot with disorganized curriculum.

[fasted3 0]

I think the first part means that you would require the USPA coach rating to teach FF, Crew, etc. thus the same for WS is consistant thinking.
And you are right with your other points about quality, etc.
I would not require a USPA coach rating for anyone except students not having an A license, so my thinking is consistant too. The program was developed for them, and traditionally a licensed skydiver has been able to choose anyone they want to help them learn new skills. I'm OK with that, and would encourage everyone to get the best coaching available, I just wouldn't require it.

But what do I know?