Butters 0 #1 July 7, 2009 ... is lobbying the FAA to relax (or remove) the cloud regulations for parachute operations!"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #2 July 7, 2009 I'm in. I like clouds.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matto765 0 #3 July 7, 2009 The cloud regulations are not there to pick on skydivers. They are there to maintain a safe environment for skydivers and any aircraft in the air. In order to fly under visual flight rules (VFR) the aircraft must be able to maintain 3 dimensionally a specified distance from the clouds, which varies depending on the airspace they are flying within. Typically the clearance is 3 statute miles visibility, 1000 feet above the clouds, 500 feet and below, and 2000 feet horizontally. If the aircraft cannot maintain this spacing, then they legally cannot go. As we all know, we can't exactly measure our distance from the clouds, and sometimes we bend these clearances a little. Thats not the point. The point is that if the cloud clearances were removed completely, and skydiving operations were allowed in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC, anything below VFR cloud minimums), there would be some major safety issues going on. First, and obviously, is that skydivers can't see the ground and could lose altitude awareness. Second is that you would have VFR traffic (the jump plane) flying in the clouds. This poses a hazard to IFR traffic that is depending on ATC to maintain their separation from other traffic in IMC. VFR traffic is not required to communicate with ATC, except in certain circumstances such as class B airspace and so on. Skydiving operations typically are conducted in class G airspace, which is not under ATC control. So, if you have some asshole flying a jump plane in IMC, not talking to ATC, they are posing a serious collision hazard to other air traffic. I know, it sucks when you go to the DZ and you get weathered. Thats a fact of life when it comes to skydving. There is no reason to change the rules because of it. I don't even think that this thread should be in the wingsuit forum anyway. You are just trying to pull attention away from all the regulating wingsuit BS. Edit to add: I almost forgot to say... QuoteWhat the USPA should really be doing... is lobbying the FAA to relax (or remove) the cloud regulations for parachute operations! Probably one of the more stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless comments I have seen in this forum in a while. This definately qualifies as verbal diarrhea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #5 July 7, 2009 [ A hidden camera fades in from black . . . ] NARRATOR'S VOICE: We've secretly replaced Butters with a small computer script. Let's see if anyone notices! Clicky Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenediktDE 2 #6 July 7, 2009 Quote... is lobbying the FAA to relax (or remove) the cloud regulations for parachute operations! AFAIK these rules are no FAA rules but ICAO rules, or not?For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #7 July 7, 2009 QuoteQuote... is lobbying the FAA to relax (or remove) the cloud regulations for parachute operations! AFAIK these rules are no FAA rules but ICAO rules, or not? They are FAA regulations ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsane 0 #8 July 7, 2009 Oooooo ... what if we could get one of those Aussie Parachute Association thingies that gives you a free pass to jump through clouds, huh? I could get behind that for sure ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #9 July 7, 2009 SeeDorf in Germany is a militairy dropzone, and with all dropping of skydivers being classified as 'militairy', they dont really care in how many clouds you jump, as long as you dont land out. But 90% of europe sorta has a 'we'll look the other way' approach to clouds and skydiving. As long as its safe. Unless its Belgium...they done really care JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #10 July 7, 2009 QuoteOooooo ... what if we could get one of those Aussie Parachute Association thingies that gives you a free pass to jump through clouds, huh? I could get behind that for sure ... I wonder if Danny Mattox believes that Austrailians are stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matto765 0 #11 July 7, 2009 No, I don't think that Australians are stupid, asinine, unintelligent and thoughtless. If their aviation regulatory organization wants to allow their skydivers to go through clouds, then thats their decision to make. The main difference between Australia and the US is that the US has a much greater amount of air traffic than Australia. We have more air traffic in our skies than any other country in the world. This could cause some major issues with regards to skydiving in IMC. Butters, if you want, come down to Deland sometime and make a couple of jumps with me there, you will quickly be amazed at how much air traffic there is in the Daytona Beach area. Try to count the amount of planes you see in the air while flying to altitude. Then think about how shitty it would be if we were in the clouds the entire jump, basically zero-zero conditions. You wouldnt know if a CRJ was about to turn you into the largest birdstrike ever to be recorded. Also, why would you want to do anything but a solo wingsuit in the clouds? Big flocks suck in the clouds cause most of the flock can't see each other and that could pose a safety issue. Doing a small 2 or 3 way "wingsuit freefly" isn't safe because its easy to get a lot of separation on accident, resulting in losing to other guys and potentionally having a head on. Hell, even doing a solo in zero-zero sucks cause you have no way of navigating, you could be going in cirlces and never know it, or you could be miles off from the DZ. Did I mention that this also poses a severe risk to all of the other skydivers around you? And, not mention the fact that it would be impossible for the jump aircraft to see where its skydivers are after they exit. GPS is an amzing tool to spot with, but thats about it. The rules are in place for a reason, Butters. I know your personality is to buck the trend, but sometimes you got to realize that people much smarter than you and I, with more expertise in this area, make the rules they make for very good reasons. Don't worry about weather holds for clouds. God invented beer for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #12 July 7, 2009 Danny, there is a cloud "briefing" that accompanies getting a *cloud stamp* in your log book. It's not fast, it's fairly intense, you've got to have a certain number of jumps, and even then....the intelligent jumpers don't go if the clouds are marginal, nor will the pilot fly if the clouds are obviously thick. Australians, IMO, are overall better skydivers than most of those you'll meet of equal experience in the USA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matto765 0 #13 July 7, 2009 QuoteDanny, there is a cloud "briefing" that accompanies getting a *cloud stamp* in your log book. It's not fast, it's fairly intense, you've got to have a certain number of jumps, and even then....the intelligent jumpers don't go if the clouds are marginal, nor will the pilot fly if the clouds are obviously thick. Australians, IMO, are overall better skydivers than most of those you'll meet of equal experience in the USA. That should clear up the air then with regards to the apparent belief that anyone can jump in clouds in Australia. I believe that it is a general consensus in the wingsuit community (and the skydiving community in general) that flying in/jumping in a large cloud mass is not a safe thing and should be avoided. There are too many safety issues involved, such as skydiver to skydiver collisions (canopy and freefall), skydiver to airplane collisions (including the jump plane), and ending up a long way from the DZ which could result in an off landing injury. Surfing large puffies is a nice thing to do(one of my favorite things to do in a wingsuit), but actually wanting to make a flight in a cloud layer, zero-zero conditions, is pretty retarded. And Butters, when someone makes a counter point to your initial statement (just like I originally did) it is typically considered stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless to come back and say "well this country over here does it, why cant we" instead of actually making an argument for your stance with fact and reason. Just a nice little tip for you there, buddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #14 July 7, 2009 QuoteAnd Butters, when someone makes a counter point to your initial statement (just like I originally did) it is typically considered stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless to come back and say "well this country over here does it, why cant we" instead of actually making an argument for your stance with fact and reason. Just a nice little tip for you there, buddy. Just a nice little tip for you ... if you want an intelligent argument than don't call the other person stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless for doing nothing more than bringing up a subject."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #15 July 7, 2009 Quote Quote And Butters, when someone makes a counter point to your initial statement (just like I originally did) it is typically considered stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless to come back and say "well this country over here does it, why cant we" instead of actually making an argument for your stance with fact and reason. Just a nice little tip for you there, buddy. Just a nice little tip for you ... if you want an intelligent argument than don't call the other person stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless for doing nothing more than bringing up a subject. And to both of you..... if you are looking for an intelligent argument...the internet usually isnt the best place to search..??JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matto765 0 #16 July 7, 2009 1) You did bring up a stupid subject. There is no debate going on in the US about our rules regarding clouds. You are just trying to stir up shit. 2) When you present a viewpoint with no argument, that is stupid. 3) When your viewpoint is challenged with logical facts and information, and you respond with a 3rd grade level counterpoint... that is stupid. 4) You smell like poo poo 5) Apparently you didn't even have a full understanding of how the Australian system works with regards to clouds. The information DSE supplied showed that there is regulation with regards to clouds, and that if you want to jump in them, you must have special training and the required endorsements. So, you passing on information to support your argument that you apparently know nothing about is stupid 6) If you have such a hardon for jumping inside of clouds, then move to Australia and jump there. I've been there. Its a really amazing and beautiful country. Just have fun wasting your money on jumps where you can't see anything and have no idea of where you are (cause your inside of a cloud). 7) lol:QuoteJust a nice little tip for you ... if you want an intelligent argument than don't call the other person stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless for doing nothing more than bringing up a subject. Sorry for hurting your feelings Edit to add: None of this is personal, dude. Don't take it the wrong way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #17 July 7, 2009 And an obvious humorous post in response to the WSI thread. Butters is an enigma. Never take him seriously. Unless he says take him seriously, in which case continue to not take him seriously. Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #18 July 7, 2009 Australians, IMO, are overall better skydivers than most of those you'll meet of equal experience in the USA. Well I guess they must know what we don't know then ( I recon).But SuperGirl would tell you this> but please don't generalize so easily to "almost everybody" or we'll just have another silly discussion similar to that "you europeans" vs "you americans" thread from a few days ago. On a similar note I would love to state that I love Belgium! Shout out to all be hommies back in Temploux, yeah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #19 July 7, 2009 Just speaking for Butters here; Quote 2) When you present a viewpoint with no argument, that is stupid. Viewpoint with an argument Quote 3) When your viewpoint is challenged with logical facts and information, and you respond with a 3rd grade level counterpoint... that is stupid. You're stupid! Quote 4) You smell like poo poo Reliable sources actually told me it was an interesting mixture of urine, earwax, terpentine and fecal mater. But maybe thats a bit too specific. In a verbal arguement, poopoo might be quicker and more to the point.. Quote 5) Apparently you didn't even have a full understanding of how the Australian system works with regards to clouds. You get a sticker in your logbook, and then its safe! At least the Belgians do it without a sticker! Much cooler. The sticker thing is like being cool, only trying to market it like being safe..bunch of pussies.. Quote Just have fun wasting your money on jumps where you can't see anything and have no idea of where you are Isnt that really identical to any flocking dive you're on? Quote Sorry for hurting your feelings No you're not.. Quote Edit to add: None of this is personal, dude. Don't take it the wrong way. But he LOVES 'taking you' the wrong way..!JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #20 July 7, 2009 Quote 5) Apparently you didn't even have a full understanding of how the Australian system works with regards to clouds. The information DSE supplied showed that there is regulation with regards to clouds, and that if you want to jump in them, you must have special training and the required endorsements. So, you passing on information to support your argument that you apparently know nothing about is stupid Our regulations prevent jumping near or through clouds. Their regulations allow jumping near or through clouds with endorsements. Thus, their regulations are more relaxed than ours ... not understanding this is stupid. Quote 6) If you have such a hardon for jumping inside of clouds, then move to Australia and jump there. I've been there. Its a really amazing and beautiful country. Just have fun wasting your money on jumps where you can't see anything and have no idea of where you are (cause your inside of a cloud). Who made a statement about jumping inside clouds? I don't want to jump inside of clouds. I want to fly near clouds which means the current cloud regulations need to be relaxed (or removed). One possible method of doing this would be creating cloud endorsements ... Quote 7) lol: Quote Just a nice little tip for you ... if you want an intelligent argument than don't call the other person stupid, asinine, unintelligent, and thoughtless for doing nothing more than bringing up a subject. Sorry for hurting your feelings Hurt my feelings? Don't flatter yourself ... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #21 July 7, 2009 Quote 4) You smell like poo poo Reliable sources actually told me it was an interesting mixture of urine, earwax, terpentine and fecal mater. But maybe thats a bit too specific. In a verbal arguement, poopoo might be quicker and more to the point.. That is what happens when you power buff your butt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matto765 0 #22 July 7, 2009 I think we've covered all we can with this. In my opinion, if you want to surf puffies, go for it. The people with the authority (USPA, FAA, etc.) to bitch about it have no way of knowing if you were violating the limitations. Their vantage point from the ground only provides a 2 dimensional view of your jump. I think the regulations are fine the way they are. I still get to surf plenty of puffies under the current regulations. Besides, the regulations are pointed more towards aircraft than skydivers. The FAA only uses it against skydivers when they need leverage (such as the proposed control tower in Deland). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #23 July 7, 2009 QuoteThe people with the authority (USPA, FAA, etc.) to bitch about it have no way of knowing if you were violating the limitations. Their vantage point from the ground only provides a 2 dimensional view of your jump. Luckely, here (much like Basejumping) human stupidity comes in! And we upload TONS of videos. Like basejumpers wanting to keep their sport hidden, low-key and secret. Yet uploading every fart they let out with a baserig on their back. Woohoo! We want to puffysurf, and show everyone the video...while that same video is what could get is into serious shit if the wrong person is watching heheheJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #24 July 7, 2009 Conscientious, cloud-avoiding wingsuit flyers in the USA... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #25 July 7, 2009 That's industrial haze, Matt. Duh! Can't you tell the difference? Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
