Prototype "Giboline 3"

[Birdman_Mike 0]

Quote

Mind posting the GPS data? Because without data, the current record is 7.0:1, so 3.7 ain't that impressive...

Brian,

When was the "7.0:1 glide ratio" record made? Is there data?

Thanks,

Purple Mike

[bdrake529 0]

It's a joke. There is no data.

Brian Drake

[piisfish 135]

Quote

bump ... anyone know the deal with this suit? @Gibolin.... if you have put the project to rest and have no intenton of picking back up ... how about sharing the wisdom... what makes your suits so fast.... what have you done in terms of materials? I am really really curious

the deal is... the suit is in Gibolin's cellar. Not to sound/make him sound interested, but globally, if you want to share the wisdom, share the cost (or do your own research)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mccordia 73]

Quote

the deal is... the suit is in Gibolin's cellar. Not to sound/make him sound interested, but globally, if you want to share the wisdom, share the cost (or do your own research)

No..thats step 2.
Kinda skipping step 1, which is show the actual performance.

A simple plot of GPS data, showing a full jump, and the actual quoted performance (oblitirating all other wingsuits out there) in full sustained flight (and not just a fragment of peak data after a dive) is all people want to see.

With the amount of recording, testing and measuring mentioned, shouldnt be too hard to grab one of the archived GPS files and upload?

I wouldnt show ANYTHING of the design, suit features or other specs other designers could 'steal'. Yet it would be the actual basis on which claims regarding amazing performance could be validated.

With all these amazing performances, its always a lot of screaming, untill the point somebody dares ask for the proof, on which the claims are based.

I had high hopes for this one, but starts to smell worse with every post thats made...showing more talk, negative BS against manufacturers, and less and less initiative to finaly show some data..

That aside, share the cost share the wisdom.
Most of his initial prototypes seem to heavily borrow from other suit designers. Did he compensate them for the cast of the initial design as well

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[aarthus 0]

I have another subjective question : Why doesn't he flies his suit himself...?

Patrick de Guillebon

[piisfish 135]

because he doesn't skydive anymore.

it's a pity for the suit and the work and dedication put in it. The suit looks good, the visual of the flight looked pretty interesting. If only there had been a satisfying agreement between the manufacturers and Gibolin...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mccordia 73]

Quote

If only there had been a satisfying agreement between the manufacturers and Gibolin...

There could have been, had there been actual data presented, instead of the 'pay first ask questions later' approach, without ANY information on the achieved numbers.

The lack of data presented, as interesting as the suit may have looked, probably shows that the performance didnt really match the advertising and sales pitch..

Come on....did he swipe harddrives..how simple is it to SHOW some GPS data from files of the 'extensive testing' done.
There are a lot of fingers pointed at manufacturers, but I dont blame any of them for turning down this empty showcase/sales pitch.

First you present results, than sell the method by witch you achieved them. In this case, there arent even results presented. A marketing video is all that was ever made..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[tr027 0]

+1, exactly.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[Skwrl 56]

To Jarno's point, this is where a pretty simple confidentiality agreement (a.k.a., a CDA - or since he's in Europe, a secrecy agreement) would have solved this concern... It would be a trade secret, and he'd have rights to it and to prevent others from using it if they signed such an agreement. Typically, when manufacturers of technology are willing to accept proposals from folks outside of their own shop, they sign a CDA prior to having the technology disclosed to them. Generally, there's no payment involved for signing the CDA. (Incidentally, many manufacturers of technology don't want to receive such proposals - even under a CDA - because they don't want to get into battles if they were developing equivalent technology in house...)

On the other hand, maybe this guy's L/D is like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - it can only happen when it can't be observed or measured...

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[mccordia 73]

Nobody is or was asking to see the technology. Only seeing some measurable results before putting in the money...

I know at least 3 manufacturers got this proposal, maybe more.
And all of them declined for this exact reason. Nobody wants to eat the pie for free. But you do want to be sure there is actually something there worth eating before you put down the money..

With the suit locked in a basement somewhere for good, you'd expect the data to be published to show everyone exactly WHAT they are missing in terms of capable performance..

Nobody is against believing the amazing results, nor discrediting the invention, work, effort, money or time invested. But its back to 7:1 glide ratio claims if there is no proof presented..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Skwrl 56]

Right.

What I was getting at was that a more traditional model would be to have the manufacturer sign a CDA and then the inventor would disclose the trade secret/design and any supporting data/results without any payment.

If, after they had a chance to look at it, the manufacturer was interested, the manufacturer would then license the technology (at which point the inventor would be paid).

That approach protects both parties: the CDA would prevent the manufacturer from "stealing" the idea; the manufacturer would then have the chance to investigate the design/data before plunking down any cash.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[lurch 0]

My .02$
Personally, I'd bet the reason this thing is going to disappear quietly is: He may have tested it against existing suits and discovered that it "wasn't all that".

I checked out the gib2 video and it was nothing special. Just another wingsuit. Nobody was going to pay him major money for "just another wingsuit." Slick materials aren't going to make a revolutionary difference... I made a freakin' leather jacket work acceptably well if not particularly great. He could have made the thing out of oiled latex and although it would go over well at a fetish ball, it wasn't going to be all that much faster than anything else we're already flying. My practical assessment of his work would expect performance on par with "last year's designs" about equal to early Vampire/S-6 class suits. A bigger more effective tail would make far more difference than the materials he made it out of.

Enthusiasm can easily blind the maker to reality. When I was building modified suits it would have been easy to start making wild claims about my gear... The best variants I built there was nothing in the sky that could even come close to catching them until the X-bird suits came along. But I knew enough not to think I had something revolutionary that people were going to pay me major money for. I actually DID put my money where my mouth is and put it up against the state of the art gear, top pilots flying Vamps and Machs, and my stuff could hold its own. But still, it wasn't record-smashing stuff, just a little better than the best available at the time. No big deal.

I deliberately underplayed the stuff I made and let the performance speak for itself. By now the stuff is obsolete and I'm flying Tony's gear now, but for awhile it was ahead of its time. I didn't have to worry about people not believing my hype because I didn't make any hype. I had no unrealistic expectations of making a big deal out of my work. It was what it was, just another minor step in wingsuit development.

Gib produced a lot of hype and no hard results. I understand the need to hype such a project to yourself to keep up the enthusiasm necessary to finish it, but when you start to believe your own hype, and exaggerate that hype, you set yourself up for failure.

If you're going to start making claims of performance that beat everything else in existence you better be prepared to back up those claims in the air. If I'd seen even a single video of him outflying a top rank pilot with it, I'd say he had some credibility, but all we ever got was, as Skwrl put it, "heisenberg" performances that only happen unobserved. A pity. I too, was rooting for him. He might have gone a lot further with it if he'd spent a little less time hyping it and a lot more time flying and tweaking it.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[piisfish 135]

Quote

There are a lot of fingers pointed at manufacturers, but I dont blame any of them .

I don't blame anyone either. To reach an agreement, you need at least 2 parties.

I won't talk for Boris. Will send him a link for the thread see if he is interested in posting anything here.

I'd actually have loved to see someone like you fly the suit (eventhough it's a bit more Benedikt-shaped). It could then certainly reach 8:1 GR

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[aarthus 0]

How much did the guy ask ?

Patrick de Guillebon

[piisfish 135]

Quote

How much did the guy ask ?

I don't know. Patrick, if you're interested I will PM you Boris' email

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I won't talk for Boris. Will send him a link for the thread see if he is interested in posting anything here.

Ive seen a lot of talking and posting by Boris on YouTube, but its always about pointing fingers and accusing people.
I think the only thing that would interest ANYONE is some actual proof of performance.

Uploading a track to trackingderby or wingsuitcompetition.com/ppc should prove the (peak) performance instantly. And still have him keep the secret on what and how he managed to do so.

So far there are many glides of over 3:1 (with wind) and ground speeds over 280 km/h there. Looking forward to seeing some numbers instead of more marketing.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Gibolin 0]

8 years of hard work by myself, self investment, hours and hours of incredible problems to solve. So I'm a bit tired of all those "expectations" from people who don't do nothing to get the topic better...

I could pay for one test, no more. No more wish to spend another dollar into proving I'm "right". So if anybody wants to propose a fair deal to me: the prototype is in my cellar. Otherwise, I'm fed up talking with people who want everything of my work without giving ANYTHING in return. I've been waiting twice for a promise for a lend for a wingsuit from a manufacturer (for only 5 test jumps, then posted back!), for a comparison test I would have paid with my money. Never came...

Test 2 different prototypes with the same pilot, the same day, the same tools for measuring, in the same flight protocole. Then you will have a scientific interesting result. "Show the results 1st, then we can discuss". Pfffff.... Talking about results that you can't compare in the proper scientific way?! What'd be the point?

I've proposed the comparison test to the most important wingsuit manufacturers. They had to lend my pilot their best suit of the moment. No one did "play the game" unfortunately. Now help me 1st, then I'll share my knowledge. Want to make money on my back? Just F@ck off!... Clear enough? ;-)

Let's keep on the good spirit. unfortunately, there is too much money everywhere nowadays. it's ruining the dream...

I've achieved my dream. I did Deug's work go the next step.You want to keep on pushing the limits of the wingsuit flying? Let's talk seriously then...
I've found a way to fly fast, far, in an incredible comfortable way (muscular energy savings coming from my physiotherapist's knowledge. 8 years of researches...).


My blog:

www.gibolin.ch

Fly high mates! ;-)

Gibolin from Switzerland

[Sangi 0]

Can't you just post simple protrack data or something?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[mccordia 73]

Quote

Can't you just post simple protrack data or something?

protrack tells you everything, except the forward speed and glide ratio that this is all about

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[michalm21 0]

I totally understand that whatever results you have cannot be compared to another suit because of different conditions, but seriously

if your suit is such a killer and an amazing flying machine you should be able to post some numbers from your flights showing distance, fall rate, speed, etc from either a gps or a neptune... anything.

Nobody wants to know your secrets, or research - just an end result in form of data points to see if you're full of shit or not.

If you can't show on paper what your suit is capable of, then I'm sorry but you are full of shit.

If not, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you, I just can't give you any details about it but trust me, it's for sale and it's amazing.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

8 years of hard work by myself, self investment, hours and hours of incredible problems to solve. So I'm a bit tired of all those "expectations" from people who don't do nothing to get the topic better...

It only requires one thing.
Post some actual proof of performance..that doesnt seem like a big thing to ask?
If I say my team was the best in Italy at the competition> the video is online
If I say I scored last in marl> The GPS track is online.

If you want people to believe in something. Maybe show them something. And dont stop at a marketing trailer without GPS data.

Quote

I could pay for one test, no more.

Why?
You have all the data already? Thats been said several times?
Just show one full jump log/track.
Not body positions, materials, method or skill.

I know PF and FlyYourBody where interested in what you had to say, but neither ever got any actual information on your regarding performance. A GPS track. Or other aquired data.
Some quotes on flares and dives where all that was mentioned.

Buy first, see what you're getting later is not a popular sales method...

Nobody asked for HOW you got to the performances you talk about. They just want to see WHAT you did. Performance wise.
No secrets. Just raw numbers.

Full flight> Full jump> Data...so not quoting peak performance. but constant performance, exit till opening.

Quote

unfortunately, there is too much money everywhere nowadays. it's ruining the dream...

Fighting the big bad cooperations all the way...
It may be a secret, but most wingsuit manufacturers are not driving a ferarri, dont have 4 houses, and 6 private jets.
Its a small niche business. But if you have anything to sell (like> showing WHAT the idea you are selling is capable of) I have no doubt people will bite. But you never showed anything..

You scream about evil cooperations and people rediculing you...there is one quick, awesome solution:

Go into your cellar. Unlock the big box of secret performance data and upload a GPS track (you mention this data in the videos) to trackderby or wingsuitcompetition.com

Your suit should be number 1 instantly if what you say is true.
And it would be compared to the best suits and pilots and good and bad flying conditions worldwide.

And it would show that you are right..and everyone else is wrong.

Quote

Just F@ck off!... Clear enough?

Which reads as> I cant prove it with numbers or anyone watching..so leave me alone.

Again..its a GREAT thing you did. But YOU are the one holding this back. Not the evil cooperations or MIB.

Quote

I've achieved my dream. I did Deug's work go the next step.

With current day wingsuits flying roughly double the performance of what Patricks initial design was capable of, I dont think the evil cooperations are doing that bad either

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mccordia 73]

Here is Gibolin via Google Translate (for a few people in the rest of the world that dont speak French)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lurch 0]

Gib... just a suggestion...
Maybe you're going about this the wrong way. For most engineering disciplines it IS all about the test data, specifications and so on...
With wingsuiting the environment and conditions are so subjective and so fluid that trying to do comparison testing by collecting data when the conditions will never be the same twice strikes me as kind of like trying to build a sculpture out of water.

When I was doing my own suit development I didn't bother trying to collect data or establish protocol or attach many numbers to it.
The only numbers I was really concerned with was freefall time. When it came to distance and speed, I'd mapped my performance...literally, on a map... and then bought a GPS to verify it. It did. My rough estimates turned out to be a lot more accurate than I thought they would be, actually. The GPS did nothing except tell me what I already knew: Range, 6.5 miles.
And when I wanted to assess the performance of my work I did it in a simple nonsubjective manner. I flew it against the best pilots, including Jeff Nebelkopf himself. I didn't smoke him... but the stuff I made did enable me to keep up.

My situation is different than yours. I wasn't trying to design a suit to sell... I got better results out of modifying existing suits than anything I made from scratch.
So I knew my work had no commercial value from the start and I made no effort to commercialize it.

But I certainly did get results, and anyone who saw my stuff in flight knew it. Up until Tony put out the "bird" series of wings, there was nothing in the sky that could stay with my stuff except Jeff in one of his own megasuits.

What I'm saying is, instead of trying to sell a suit design based on numbers, protocol and test data, you might be better served and meet with more success with a much simpler approach:

Fly the thing, publicly, with the best wingsuit pilots out there. Build a reputation on it. If you can fly the thing against the best of the best and consistently smoke them by a wide margin, THERE is your test data. THERE is your comparison test.

Nobody's going to deny you've put a hell of a lot of work into it. Personally I thought the thing looked cool as hell. I wouldn't have thought the plastic and rubber designs (if thats what the materials were) would be very comfortable, but if you say they are I'll believe it, you've worn em, I haven't.

All I'm saying is that in the art of wingsuit design, nothing beats demonstrated superior performance. When The new Tony "-bird" designs came out, I KNEW they were vastly superior without having flown them myself. I SAW the results. I didn't need test data and protocol to convince me. Pilots who I had previously been able to smoke without effort suddenly became able to keep up with me. Pilots who had been able to at least compete with me suddenly became able to beat me. One of our local pilots used to fly an S-3. In my S-6 I could outfloat and outrun him by thousands of feet. Then he got an R-Bird and quickly learned to use it. On breakoff one day I punched out, up and away from the flock. Within seconds they were all hundreds of feet below and behind me. Then I looked to the right, and there was Dave. My jaw dropped. He was still with me. I'm both taller and lighter than he is. I was absolutely astonished.

That result was repeated by other pilots. I'd been able to dust Justin no matter what he was flying. Even his megasupermach1XS didn't allow him to smoke me. I'm quite a bit lighter and knew my suit too well.
But when he and Phil got X-Birds I got smoked by both of them. No contest. Not even close. The only way I could match them was with my own biggest mods, and even then only just barely.

That, is what is selling Tony suits. Not protocol or test data... but a demonstrated performance envelope that beats everything else in the sky. Now I fly an S-Bird myself, and am enjoying the same advantages the design granted the others flying it. My homemade stuff is obsolete and I don't see myself trying to build anything better. What they've built is so good I have no urge to improve on it.

But if I had a design like yours that I wanted to commercialize, THAT is how I would do it. I'd generate the test data you've been making, but I'd be PROVING my world-class numbers by demonstrating that nobody and nothing can compete with me while I'm flying it. The performance numbers you've claimed for your suit design say your design is so good and so fast it nearly defies physics and would beat any suit ever built or flown. I don't think it unreasonable for the wingsuit community and manufacturers to expect you to prove those claims and those numbers by simple demonstration. You don't need tests and protocol and all this complex comparative stuff. All you need to do is smoke everyone. Then the suit will sell.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Gibolin 0]

Hi mate! That's the best and most intelligent answer I've ever got. So first of all, thanks for posting!

Ok, my approach is based on the scientific method, which comes from my studies. Of course I could take the best pilot I know, but I don't know the best pilot in the world, unfortunately. I also can't fly anymore for family reasons. I've spent so much time building the suit that I could not fly it safely anymore, because its performances were too risky for me!
The prototype is ...a prototype actually! So it's not safe enough to be able to be lent to anybody. If any accident would occur with it to anybody, I would not pardon myself and it would be a load on my shoulders for the rest of my life...

Of course I've been thinking about the Tracking Derby, beating all records and the rest, BUT: I was totally out of breath after all that time working alone. No more energy for that, out of money, had to sell my chute, etc... All I needed was in fact some help from the outside, which I haven't found.

I never wanted to sell anything. I did not do all this work for making money. I seriously don't care about money. All I wanted was to COLLABORATE with pros, helping the wingsuit manufacturers to improve their suits with my innovations.

I've had "candy bars" in front of me some times from manufacturers, but never anything but words...

I'm an amateur, but now after such a big work, I've got experience. Nobody took me seriously. Too bad. I still think I had an original approach, starting from the human anatomy that is my job.

I could isolate items every prototype after the other, keeping the best for the next one and adding new stuff to test it. Don't look at pics, the prototype is black, like Alinghi's sails, to avoid showing too much. The best part is inside the suit.

The prototype is what it is. It just shows in reality the ideas and conceptst. The concept can lead to future ways of designing wingsuits. It would have been too risky for me to start from zero, without using what was safe at the moment. Again, I've been totally working on my own, with some help for the safety from good friends such as Yves Rossy and Olivier Vietti-Teppa.

But with my prototypes, I now am sure about what is effective in a wingsuit, what really works, and what doesn't, because I've done it from point A to Z. So with that, you could redesign wingsuits of the market and easily improve them, or at least have interesting discussion about which direction to follow for the future.

I wish I could have been able to be included in a wingsuit design research team as a pro. I have now a wife and 2 kids. But it didn't occur.

So again, if anybody can propose me a contract with a part telling my concept will not be taken for business purpose without my agreement, I'm ok! But again, nobody could do this even after talking for ages with them.

It's a dead end...


I wish I could have shared my passion and allow flyers to fly better with the results of my researches. But some people think only about money... they sell jeans and t-shirts just as wingsuits ! javascript:%20addTag(':P')

That was a cool time doing all this. I had a lot of fun with all the friends who have helped me in this incredible adventure. Now I've sold my dear paragear, and invest the money into a book and a DVD of this cool adventure, for the people who have helped me. At least, there are a few whom I could share something with about this great time.

I have no more energy/time for proving anything with that suit of mine. I need a partner to push the project further. Anybody interested? I'm opened, just let me know!

Blue Sky to all !

Gibolin from Switzerland

[Gibolin 0]

Two kids and a wife to spend some time with, after 8 years of patience from their side. They now deserve my full attention I guess...

Also: flying a prototype of that performance can't be done with only 650 jumps safely. A prototype is not a serie wingsuit. It's not been tested enough to say it's safe. It's something totally new, with new reactions, exploring parts which had never been explored before. Incredibly wicked, but scary too...

Gibolin from Switzerland