Paying for pictures

[voodew1 0]

So the trend seems to be - the video guy gets free slots on jumps - then if you want a picture you have to pay for it
How does this make sense at all?

When I shoot video and stills and my slot is paid for - all my pictures and video are free for those on the jump - they paid for them when they bought my slot, I don't print them out - I just email them the ones they want or all of them if they want.

I know a few holy than thou video guys out there that think they deserve all these little perks -
So how do the jumpers who are paying for it feel about this free market enterprise?

This isn't meant to be a troll - I just really refuse to pay for pictures when I paid for the free jump of the video guy and I don't see how it is justified

opinions??????

multiple opinions are ok and you don't have to post so no one will think bad of you later

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Heffro1 0]

Talk to any pro photographer and tell them you will cover their expenses but not pay them a dime for their work,
you will probably get the same answer every time.

Unless you get the person that is learning the trade and is looking for opportunity to get some practice.

So in other words, posting about not wanting to pay for pictures does only one thing,
devalue the work of photographers.

I'm sure they don't mind.

BUY A WINGSUIT
My Website
Tony Suits
[url "http:/

[fasted3 0]

The best policy is to find out before the jump.
If I expect pics or video, I will say so up front.
Better to know what you are getting before you pay for it, as in any transaction.
If it's not what you want, don't buy it.
If it's not what you're selling, say so.

But what do I know?

[voodew1 0]

Quote

Talk to any pro photographer and tell them you will cover their expenses but not pay them a dime for their work,
you will probably get the same answer every time.

What I am saying is why have to pay for the product twice? on bigways the video guys slot is covered by everyone on the jump - and then they have to buy the pics (if they want) but did they have the chance to not pay for the video guys slot? No would be the answer.

Why are the video guys getting free slots? because they had to buy the gear? well then the free slots add up to cover the gear! That being said all the pictures they sell are for profit - that throws the whole I had to buy the gear shit out the window

How about Purple Mike starts charging for you to take his picture? its unavoidable so you have to pay him everytime he sticks his ugly mug in front of the camera - call it a copyright thing
Fuck its a free market thing I say we all do that

And if this a devaluation thing well then the product wasn't of any value to begin with - and with the new digital cameras and the 'pray and spray' technique its not like it used to be when you had 24 chances to get the shot - now its almost endless
Take for instance the 71 way - it was mentioned there were 8000 pictures taken of the record?????? there were only maybe 30 seconds of the record that pictures even needed to be taken...............hence the pray and spray digital camera technique

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[The111 0]

Like Ed said, know what you are paying for before you pay for it.

If my slot is paid, it's usually by the DZ for their own reasons. On the very rare occasion that it is paid by the jumpers themselves (this has only happened at like 2 or 3 events I can remember), I have not had any of those jumpers assume that their $1 per jump entitles them to all the pictures they want. If they did think such a thing, I'd be fine with them not paying the $1... in fact I've tried turning that down before just because I felt wrong incurring that cost to all the jumpers without giving them an option, but the LO wouldn't let me... he was the one collecting the money and then giving it to me. But I agree with you they shouldn't be paying for something they don't want.

When my slot is paid, I provide a service similar to the LO. I video and debrief the jump, for free. If you want to take my photos home with you, that is not free. Regardless of whether the DZ paid my slot or you paid me $1, taking home photos will cost you.

When my slot is not paid (which is the most common case) I still provide the video and debrief because I enjoy it (the same way many of use have LO'd for free before). I still edit videos and put them on my website for free. I still optimize the photos and put them in my web gallery for free. I still do my damnedest to get the photos printed in the mags and get us all exposure. And my photos are still for sale if you want to buy them. If not I'll take them home and put them on my wall and enjoy them.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[voodew1 0]

But you and I both know you are not the norm.
You think about things and can understand or rationalize...not that the others can't - they just chose not to

Edit to add
As for the $1 comments - it still adds up to the same amount - so its really $25 to you

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Bones 0]

With Bigways, either FS/RW or WS the camera flyer has an important part in recording the jump (or at least a sector) for debriefing and record verification.

[The111 0]

Quote

As for the $1 comments - it still adds up to the same amount - so its really $25 to you

Correct. Which is how much I sell one photo for, not an unlimited amount.

-the "abnorm" (?)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[voodew1 0]

On bigways the jumpers have a very important job of making sure the video guy has something to record................everyone has a 'job' to do on a skydive - the video guy has the easiest job of all --- the proximity window is very large for the video guy - and even more now with digital crop and cut jobs

Not so for the jumpers who have to hold super tight proximity making the formation.

So this argument on this point seems to not be valid


And I have been in and done video on bigway stuff (video on 30-40 ways)

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[DSE 3]

Quote

[Take for instance the 71 way - it was mentioned there were 8000 pictures taken of the record?????? there were only maybe 30 seconds of the record that pictures even needed to be taken...............hence the pray and spray digital camera technique

Who said they were all from the air? Who said they were all from the formation?
There are at least 30GB of nothing but ground shots and due to time, they weren't cataloged any differently than aerial shots.

Beyond that, I can easily believe someone who thinks a batwing is creative thinks quality photos should be free. It disappoints me.

[QuietStorm 0]

I'm used to ( and its pretty much expected) that everybody chips in for video. Its really great for de-briefing the jump. I remember stuffing a good bit of money into the video jar at Pepperell this summer to take care of Matt Hoover and Scotty Burns. So I don't mind chipping in for video.

I will pay GOOD MONEY for nice stills; enlarged, developed, and UPS'd to my door; but only to a certain price point.

Scotty Burns got a great shot of me in wingsuit flight over a blanket of clouds on a sunset load over Elsinore. I adore this photograph; its an instant conversation starter for guests who visit my home and a point of personal pride and satisfaction. Even my fighter pilot brother finds the shot totally bad ass. To me photos like these are worth the money.
Ever buy a high quality Nikon or Canon and the lenses that come with it? Then accessorize the camera helmet so you don't lose the gear? Its a shitload of money! Ask my wingman Nuclear Nick who lost a Nikon D-2000 and the FishEye wideangle including the PC-1000 video camera on a hard riser strike to the helmet.

Oh yeah, then there is the time spent on the ground post edit in Adobe Photoshop when the photographer could be doing something else other than "working". It can be a real hassle. You are giving up time to do something else. I strongly value time spent on something.

Ocassionaly I shoot stills in the air and on the ground. I am so busy I don't have time to learn Adobe Photoshop. I just take the card out of my camera, make some nice 8 x 10's at the photo kiosk Costco; and share some nice photos between friends; no charge....no performance expectations. The photos are warmly recieved gifts and definately keep a good vibe going.

I think its fine and there is nothing wrong with you sending via e-mail photos of the jump. I have no objections to this either.

Its hard to make a living at freefall photography; no high volume commercial demand. Even our "best" have other jobs and don't really live "high off the hog" taking freefall photos. At best its a labor of love and a way to capture and share the moment.

There is a saying in photography; like prostitution its hard to make money as a "pro" when the amateurs give it away for free.

I want the photographers in our sport to at least cover his/her equipment expenses and the time they put forward on Adobe Photoshop. Many years ago I had an aquarium installation and maintenance business on the side of my "normal job" just to support the huge reef aquarium I had at home. So I understand where the freefall photographer who has spent a lot of money on equipment and time developing the craft is coming from.

To me freefall photography is a craft, passion, and labor of love. Its a great way to at least pay for and break even in what is a relatively a very expensive hobby; skydiving.

So I'm willing to pay! I'm gonna make it worth a photographers time so they will keep taking pictures.

So I don't think a "few holier than thou" photographers are asking for perks they don't deserve. Let them offer a price if they would like.

Last year I turned down an excellent group photo shot with me in it that I really, really, really liked and wanted BAD. I wanted to put it next to the picture Scotty took, as a "select" one of my favorites.
But at a $100 price point asked; I didn't need it that bad.

So the $50 I was willing to pay sits in my wallet and that photo on somebody's hard drive.

The free market will sort all of this out..........

[dragon2 0]

I think usually the video flyer gets paid (a free slot) to do VIDEO, not stills, stills are usually a perk. Usually I'll take my stills camera along anyway and usually I won't ask anything for them to the people who paid my slot, if I happen to shoot other pics like exit pics, under canopy, I'll usually ask/get a pack job or a drink from those jumpers. I started asking for that as at some point i was spending 2 evenings at home emailing pics around after every weekend, for free
If I'm not taking my stills camera on a jump when I'm not getting paid to do so, my prerogative. Can be due to weather conditions, my neck, or other reasons. Don't see why I should use close to EUR 3000 of extra equipment for free if I don't feel like it. Why would just paying a slot make up for that amount of money and extra potential risk to me?
I'm not stingy with pictures, never have been, but also don't see why they should be 100% free as they are not 100% free for me either and cost me a lot of time to process and email around, which I usually do anyway but I feel that is above and beyond the call of duty

Basically, if you cover someone's slot, it's best to talk about exactly WHAT that slot covers, beforehand.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mccordia 73]

When taking pictures is somebodies job, I fully understand the need for them to charge a price for what they do.
Its a service people are providing, and nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to buy a certain picture. And if you do want it..you know what it costs...


Though I do think sometimes it gets a bit weird when people charge slot + coaching fee + video + picture fee (on top of selling them a suit with a big margin) and a single 1 on 1 jump runs up into the hundreds of dollars...

'Spread the love' is often quoted, but there is a point where it ventures into 'pay my Ferarri'

Charging for what you do is fine by me...ripping people off and asking them to pay a months rent for a single jump is a bit too much by my standard... But I guess thats looking a bit further than just pictures.

Good one on this thread. The other thread feels a bit like advertising, and (IMHO) shouldnt even need to be there...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[voodew1 0]

Quote

Beyond that, I can easily believe someone who thinks a batwing is creative thinks quality photos should be free. It disappoints me.

So here it is spot - that is not my sack - that's what happens when you leave your camera laying around - but you seemed so enticed by it I just hated to tell the truth - maybe if you put on your detective hat compare the sack on Scotty's camera (which was left lying around and is my stuff) to the sack on my video and you will be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that those are not my balls - and in turn you will be able to say you are a genitalia expert

Now back to the the poll - well it seems that most (other than the video guys) don't feel they should have to pay for the video slot and then pay for the product also - which is the way it should be - you pay your slot - you sell your products
We pay your slot - ............ well that just makes no sense - as I explained it through several PMs it kind of like contractors wanting to get work:
I need the work performed and I am willing to pay for it --- but the estimate (slot) is the responsibility of the contractor(video guy in this instance) - what if your product is no good or your tools malfunction or your price is higher than the other contractors and I don't want to use you -- I had to pay for the chance for you to do work for me that I didn't want...............doesn't work in business and it shouldn't work in skydiving

I am not saying all the video guys should give there stuff away for free - you have every right to sell it ..... but you should pay your own way if you want to sell your goods

Due to this being skydiving and all the crybaby bullshit that comes along with giant egos that are in this sport -- it won't change -- but I just wanted to make people think ---- wake up your being fucked over

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[unclecharlie95 3]

When i used to skydive (prior to becoming a sleep deprived diaper engineer) - when my slot was paid I used to give photos / video to the jumpers involved for free.

At the same time if a magazine or publication approached me I would ask $.

If a jumper has Mad "Kent" skills then i would understand them being more fiscal. 111 is on his way but no-one is there yet.

Breaking even in skydiving is already a massive achievement.

BASEstore.it

[piisfish 135]

Quote

Due to this being skydiving and all the crybaby bullshit that comes along with giant egos that are in this sport

worth repeating, thinking, analyzing, self-applicating

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Skwrl 56]

Here's my take on it, as someone who is known to be a cheap-assed bastard:

I'd agree with the "know what you're getting ahead of time" principle.

If a load chips in and pays $1 per person for a videographer's slot, I'd hope for a video debrief. To be honest, though, I don't feel like I have a right to that. (If the video guy loses a bootie on exit and doesn't film us, we don't get a refund, for instance.) The quid pro quo here is to watch the video and see how I screwed up, not to have a right to the video to do whatever I want to with the footage, though.

However, if that same camera guy is also jumping stills (like Scotty and Matt do), I don't see any reason why I should get any sort of automatic right to every still picture they take. That seems to be a huge reach.

Now, if a camara guy puts low res stills up on a website - then that's great. I can show my grandmother. Neato. But that doesn't mean I have a right to those images, either.

For full resolution, cropped, photoshopped so I look like I'm in my slot, etc., pics - yeah, I would expect to pay for that. What's the price? That's up to the photog and what we agree on - if they wanted $200 for a shot of me fucking up the exit, I probably wouldn't pay that because there are so many of those pics around (supply > demand). If they want $25 for it, then I might if I wanted the pic badly enough.

That's my thought on it, for what it's worth.

(In full disclosure, I have bought pics from both Scotty and Matt.)

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[vdschoor 0]

Quote

So the trend seems to be - the video guy gets free slots on jumps - then if you want a picture you have to pay for it
How does this make sense at all?

When I shoot video and stills and my slot is paid for - all my pictures and video are free for those on the jump - they paid for them when they bought my slot, I don't print them out - I just email them the ones they want or all of them if they want.

I know a few holy than thou video guys out there that think they deserve all these little perks -
So how do the jumpers who are paying for it feel about this free market enterprise?

This isn't meant to be a troll - I just really refuse to pay for pictures when I paid for the free jump of the video guy and I don't see how it is justified

opinions??????

multiple opinions are ok and you don't have to post so no one will think bad of you later

I copied the OP to make my response more "clear"

Here's the dealio.. yes I am one of those "holier than thou" photographers that is more than happy to hand over my footage from bigways, but will charge for photos...

My free slot? Sure, that entitles you to the VIDEO.

Think of it this way: you hire a photographer for your wedding, you will pay him X amount of dollars just to be there and take photos.
If you want prints for your album, he'll have different packages on top of the standard rate he charges just for him being there..
It's very common practice in "the real world"

It's really funny how digital has made photography "free" all of a sudden, back in the film days, there was 1 roll of film, if you wanted a copy of a shot, you had to order that from the photographer.. It would cost him money to make you an extra print.. so you PAID him for it..

For some reason because cameras are now digital, photos are "FREE" it seems to some people..
Just because they are easier to copy these days, does not make them free.

[voodew1 0]

So if I understand you correctly - you give a copy of the video? or you just let it be viewed and then take it away?

If you give a copy of the video without charging extra then you have given 'product' for your slot being covered - understandable if you then want to charge for stills -- if you don't give a copy of the video then I don't see the justification for having your slot covered

The issue is slot covered and nothing given in return


This isn't meant to piss anyone off even though it has -- I just want someone to explain why its the way it is and so far all the arguments have fallen way short

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Skwrl 56]

Quote

I just want someone to explain why its the way it is

Simple: economics. It's the way it is because it's a free market and the laws of supply and demand are in play.

You want a video debrief, you (collectively) pay for a slot - that seems to be what the market price has worked out to be. [footnote] You want more than that, you pay more than that. That also seems to be the "fair market price". Whether you think that's a good deal or not is sort of not the point - that's what the market has determined the price to be. You have the option of not going on jumps where you have to pay $1 for the video debrief. (And I acknowledge that you don't always get to decide whether or not you have to pay the $1 if you have someone doing the organizing for you... but then your issue is with the organizer who agreed to terms with the video guy, not with the video guy.)

Since there's no videographer's union, individual videographers could elect to offer their services cheaper. The fact that some individual video guy hasn't started pimping his services as "just the same as [Norman/Matt/Scotty/Craig/whomever...], but cheaper!" tells me that "the way it is" is the "market price". Similarly, if for example Matt suddenly started demanding a free pony (just checking if you're reading this, Jarno), every time he did video jump, the market - us wingsuiters - would probably shift to less expensive alternatives. There's nothing to stop anybody from offering video services, really, so it's a pretty efficient market. If they suck at it (like me, for instance), they ain't gonna make much money.

[footnote text]: This assumes that you don't have what they call in economics a "free rider" problem (someone who gets the benefit of a good - video debrief in this case - without incurring the cost for the good (paying $1). "Free rider" is just a fancy term for moocher. But again, that's an issue with the organizer, not the video dude.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[The111 0]

Quote

The issue is slot covered and nothing given in return

There is indeed something given and it's been said several times. It's just not something you can carry home in your hands.

What does the LO give you that you can carry home in your hands?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Heffro1 0]

If you give a copy of the video without charging extra then you have given 'product' for your slot being covered - understandable if you then want to charge for stills -- if you don't give a copy of the video then I don't see the justification for having your slot covered

The issue is slot covered and nothing given in return

Lets say you bid on an air conditioning job and materials cost $1,000.00
and labor costs $1,500.00
I say OK do it. Then I pay you $1,000.00 for materials and say your cost is covered now do the job.

Are you going to do the job?

Does this make any sense to you Jason?

Cost covered nothing in return.

BUY A WINGSUIT
My Website
Tony Suits
[url "http:/

[voodew1 0]

Quote

What does the LO give you that you can carry home in your hands?

When I was LO at Waller a few years ago for a wingsuit weekend - I didn't pay for a single jump

I bought pizza for the flock at the end of the day $100.00 worth (5 jumps).........they had nothing to carry home but they had full bellies for the ride home

And normally the LO is comped by the DZ not charged to the jumpers on the jump. That was the case in Waller but I felt like it was my duty for coming to a DZ which was not my home and getting free jumps.....its just the way I roll
At Skyfest where we were given LO slots I provided free beer at my RV for anyone who wanted to come and even grabbed the poor bastards camping in the down pour and gave them a place to stay - we also gave away 5 LO slots to be raffled for free FFC

Skydiving is a hobby not a job - rape the tandems all you want but leave the experienced jumpers alone they have already paid their money and put in their time

Matt - this is not directed at you in any way just a reply

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[vdschoor 0]

Quote

If you give a copy of the video without charging extra then you have given 'product' for your slot being covered - understandable if you then want to charge for stills -- if you don't give a copy of the video then I don't see the justification for having your slot covered

The issue is slot covered and nothing given in return

Lets say you bid on an air conditioning job and materials cost $1,000.00
and labor costs $1,500.00
I say OK do it. Then I pay you $1,000.00 for materials and say your cost is covered now do the job.

Are you going to do the job?

Does this make any sense to you Jason?

Cost covered nothing in return.

I'm with Heffro on this one.. and in fact a lot of times as a videographer you are just there to "gather evidence" of the jumps, THAT is your service on these.
The payment of 1 dollar extra per jump is not for a product, its for a service.
The problem is that too many people have started to think of it as "doing someone a favor" to pay for their slot and you get the free video out of it. You are not.. you are paying someone who is specialized in shooting video to gather evidence of the skydives, to record the performance of individuals on a jump, etc.

Like Matt said, you're paying for a L.O., what do you get from him that you take home?
-knowledge about your performance on the skydive

Most video for bigways doesn't make it out of the briefing room though, people can purchase a DVD or something after the bigways of all the footage. The footage is provided to the load organizer, but is usually not passed on to the participants, unless they pay for the footage on a DVD.

[voodew1 0]

Quote

Lets say you bid on an air conditioning job and materials cost $1,000.00
and labor costs $1,500.00
I say OK do it. Then I pay you $1,000.00 for materials and say your cost is covered now do the job.

Are you going to do the job?

Does this make any sense to you Jason?

Cost covered nothing in return.

Stupid example you have there but I will make the most of it
- I gave the estimate for free - I come to your place spend my labor and time and gas to give you an estimate in hopes of getting your business
THAT WOULD BE YOUR SLOT

If I get the job we have a deal and my price is my price (if you try to fuck me out of the signed contract just to be a dick I file a lien on your house)
THIS WOULD BE ME SAYING I WANT TO BUY YOUR PICTURES (for the price quoted)

If you don't like my price or me, I am out my time and gas for coming to give the estimate --- KNOWN AS THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS - YOU WIN SOME YOU LOSE SOME

If I don't like your pictures or head shaking video I turn them down - YOU ARE OUT THE COST OF THE SLOT ---- ONCE AGAIN KNOWN AS THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS - YOU WIN SOME YOU LOSE SOME

But you always have the options of painting your ass black or getting a sex change and becoming a woman - calling your self a minority and have the government subsidize the job.............oh wait that hasn't happened in skydiving yet - but it sure does in the business world

I am done now! you have tried with stupid examples which don't make much sense in the real world (thats where I live/ work / mortgage etc)

Go back to your vacation (thats where you live as the professional skydiver)

The poll pretty much sums it up -- its time for change

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid