0
Megatron

Stealth vs. Super Mach 1

Recommended Posts

I am not really sure that I agree with everything in your post. Perhaps emergency procedures have changed but I was taught that I should pull the wing cut-away handles in free-fall if I got unstable and could not recover. I am not proud to admit that I once got unstable in my Bird-man S-1 and could not recover. My exit from 13,000 ft was terrible and I tried to get stable until about 8,000 ft when I followed my instructors training and pulled the arm wing release handles. It was a great relief to have my arms free and it just turned into a "normal" skydive (of course I closed the leg wing). I did try your suggestions for stability before cutting the wings away but it just didn't work probably due to improper execution on my part.

With my experience now, I am confident that I could get stable without using the arm cut-away system. So, should beginners be taught to release their wings in free-fall? I am no expert and so I won't answer. All I know is that it saved my ass! I would much rather pull stable than pull in some funky twist/spin/ball....

Flame away if you want for using the arm wing cutaway in free-fall but I was very happy with the results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I posted the "Why would you cut way the wings in freefall" question hoping to get some of the instructors to chime in with what is currently being taught. I think there are a lot of people with the misconception that cutting away the wings in freefall is going to cure what is wrong. It may, it may not, it could cause other problems that put you in a worse situation. I am not an instructor of any kind, hell I'm not even a good pilot, but I have dealt with many in flight wingsuit problems from bothched exits that tumbled for thousands of feet, to one arm zipper completely blown out on exit, and I have not cut away the wings until I was under the canopy that I intended to land. If you can't get it under control when you have control of all that fabric in the wings, why would you think that you are going to do any better when you give up control of that fabric? just my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott and James pretty much summed it up. I don't know who taught you, but there is hardly a time where an arm (or leg) wing cutaway needs to be used in a skydiving environment.. mainly only needed under canopy. There are more than a few reasons instructors mention to deploy around 5k until you are comfortable with everything. If unstable, I'd rather have control of the full wing and ball up/close off the wings than to let a wing do what it wants. I will say that there is less of an impact to cut away on beginner/ smaller wing suits than larger wings. Many others, including myself would teach that way.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I found the following on Bird-man.com on the FAQ section. Maybe it is outdated info now with the new suits but here is the quote..

Q: What if I can not control myself during the flight?

A: Arch and relax. If that does not help, pull the cut away handles to cut away the wings and continue your skydive in "normal" body position until pull time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I found the following on Bird-man.com on the FAQ section. Maybe it is outdated info now with the new suits but here is the quote..

Q: What if I can not control myself during the flight?

A: Arch and relax. If that does not help, pull the cut away handles to cut away the wings and continue your skydive in "normal" body position until pull time.



Rob

Good on you for following the instruction for "that suit". I too have pulled the wing cutaways while in freefall on the S1 before I trained you, for the hell if it to see what it would do. It deflated and flapped alittle, then became a pretty normal skydive and pull.
People need to be aware that all suits DO NOT have the same emergency procedure as the suits they jumps during their initial ws training. Just like aircraft, even small changes in design, can mean a different set of emergency procedures. Learn about what you are flying BEFORE you exit the plane and assume it was just like your last suit........:S
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

So how about the legwing cutaway? :)



I used to have a leg cut away on the S1 and S3 - the relatively narrow leg wing made landing or kicking out line twists with the leg wing in place difficult.

The modern suits have much wider leg wings which allow a greater range of (leg) movement so I haven't gone for a leg cut away since.

I know some guys who go for the leg cut away as they struggle to unzip their legs under canopy.

If you need a leg cut away in BASE you should pull higher IMO ;)
BASEstore.it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Ed,

Yes, of course I totally agree. Thats why I don't think people just make blanket statements like cutting away your wings is not part of a successful recovery plan. I am sure there are people out there still flying suits like the S-1.

Anyways, it was a long time ago but thanks for the great training. I have never felt like it was a "straight jacket"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Even in an S1, all previously mentioned recovery methods work exactly the same, and in event of a flatspin, cutting the armwings away is not taking the source/cause of the flatspin away and could actually be counter-productive (especialy if release is not even/complete on one side).

Though the psychological effect of having ones arms 'free' will for some be a method of being able to stop the spin, its definately (on any suit) not the prefered method of doing so...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

So how about the legwing cutaway? :)



I used to have a leg cut away on the S1 and S3 - the relatively narrow leg wing made landing or kicking out line twists with the leg wing in place difficult.

The modern suits have much wider leg wings which allow a greater range of (leg) movement so I haven't gone for a leg cut away since.

I know some guys who go for the leg cut away as they struggle to unzip their legs under canopy.

If you need a leg cut away in BASE you should pull higher IMO ;)



All this talk of S1 is making me nostalgic for mine. Maybe I'll take it up for a spin.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Its seems these two are about equally matched as far as the type of suit that they are. Can anyone speak of their performance attributes? A friend of mine jumps the S.Mach 1 & speaks very highly of it. Apparently, its very easy to put compared to the Stealth.
I dont have any WS jumps yet and will start on a smaller suit but its never too early to start doing some research.



Back to the OP-
Ever heard the saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Are there, in your opinion, any other worthwhile uses for a leg wing cutaway?

Assisting kicking out twists (assuming a heavily twisted but level canopy)?
Flat spin?
Anything else?



Think about what makes you spin. (uneven/asymmetrical surface)
Releasing a legwing during the freefall portion of a skydive isn't going to help bring any surface into symmetry? Possibly making things worse.

Someone may be of a differing opinion, but IMO, legwing quick release system is for landing when you couldn't unzip the zipper or didn't have time to get it undone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Someone may be of a differing opinion, but IMO, legwing quick release system is for landing when you couldn't unzip the zipper or didn't have time to get it undone.

Exactly. Very handy for BASE jumps. Though you usually don't even need to get out of the leg wing under a BASE canopy for most landing areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Why would you cutaway the wings during freefall?



The classic example is flat-spin.



The classic example, though not the correct answer.

Flatspins are created by the legwing, and a heavy upperbody (people usually instinctive pull their arms in, when they encounter a spin).
This your body is a propellor. A heavy lump in the center, and a spinning blade (the legwing).

Cutting away the armwings will make a flatspin worse.
You're only creating less drag/counterforce on your upper body, giving the legwing (which is spinning you) more and more of a chance to put you in such a spin.

Taking the legwing out of the equation (closing it/arching/balling up) is the correct action to undertake, and this will stop the spin within a second or two.

Always use a standard 3 step recovery

- arch (banana/lazy delta position)
- ball up (when first one doesnt work)
- pull (when you're getting low, better under a canopy at 4000 ft with 20 linetwists, than wrapped in a reserve canopy at cypres altitude)

Cutting away wings is not really part of a succesfull recovery to stable freefall, besides for some people being a mental 'now Im free again'.

The cutaways/sleeve systems are there for canopy related situations, where the need to free ones arms up arrises quickly. Be it spins, evasive actions (base), jammed zippers or correctable canopy malfunctions.

In case of a cutaway, the yellow cables also shouldnt be used, and one can go directly for the cutaway.

The wingsuit cutaway cables are cheap, dont spend too much time or effort holding on to them, if a situation arrises where you need your hands free for other things..



i recently had a flat spin on exit in a XS suit ... i dont think alot of people fly them so its not really that important but the usual balling up ect as you discussed doesnt work in that suit! scary YES ... you have to counter steer the spin with your shoulders, balling up still leaves the big extending tail wing inflated. what worked for me was counter steering with my shoulders and tracking out on my back very steep, going head down and then over to belly..

i agree with all previous posts regarding cutting away being a bad idea in a spin, its should be an ABSOLUTE last resort.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the balling up doesnt work as well on the bigger suits, due to the armwings being connected to the leg(wing) way bellow the knee.

So even when the legs are closed/tucked, there is still a big portion of wing on the outside of the legs keeping the spin going.

But hey...you big pussy...these sizes of wing will soon be labeled intermediate...I heard Blades and SM1s are already labeled beginner suits:P;)

Regarding cutting away as a last resort.
Id rather see someone pull a main in a bad spin at 5k (and having some altitude to get the twists out) than having them fight a cutaway down to the ground..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0