Shoes and equipment for softer landing

[topdocker 0]

jrodrod

Way to make a straw man argument. Sliding landing is not landing on your back.

Tandems do sliding landings often. Yea it's not possible to PLF with 2 people but mainly it's less injury prone and easier.

OP has already gotten hurt, like many others, trying feet first and PLF. Spouting the dated official line is what got him hurt. Good feet first landings early on are luck.

Beware internet advice that tells you to ignore something that the poster doesn't understand in the first place.

Talk to older TI's and find out how many of them have bad backs. They say its the trapdoor and openings, but many of us are coming to the conclusion that it is compression on landing by repeatedly butt sliding.

The legs are tremendous shock absorbers, designed by nature to do that while walking, jumping, or running. The lunar lander did not have seats, NASA saved the weight by having the astronauts stand up because the astronauts' legs were better than any lightweight system they could design.

The problem is students are taught what to do with their hands while flaring, but not the rests of their body. If you watch students and low time jumpers, they tend to fly with their legs wide apart and very stiff. They are super easy to spot compared to up jumpers for that reason. As they flare, they swing forward under the canopy and their legs swing in front of them, so there is no way that their weight is over their feet. They are essentially already in a butt slide position and are hoping to time getting their weight over their feet before they fall down. Most often times, they fail and land on their butts.

In my humble opinion, the best position for landing is a "slalom water ski" position. One leg in front of the other slightly and slightly apart, knees slightly bent. This allows you to absorb a foot or two of poor landing technique by moving your feet up if you have to (no way your spine is absorbing that much compression without an issue!), you can easily run from this position as you are already into your first step, and most importantly, you can "hip slide" rather than but slide if necessary. Watch Pro baseball players slide into a base feet first to see how its really done.

Having had serious discussions with orthopedic surgeons who are also jumpers, they all agree that they would rather break a hip than a back. By sliding on a hip with one leg bent and one straight, you provide some protection to your spine. Also, sliding on one hip tends to force your hands inside rather than out, so you decrease the chance of hurting a wrist.

Take some time in the landing area and study how people land, its very educational. Good landings are a matter of technique not equipment, shoes, curvature of the earth, gremlins, or a conspiracy theory.

top

BTW, as landings improve, you are way safer in the pattern because you can focus more on things around you and less on your impending crash.

Jump more, post less!

[skytribe 16]

To further sammielu comments - typically tandems that are sliding in are coming in with a decent amount of forward speed - providing a flare to minimize vertical descent rate and slide in because running a landing out with a student on the front just doesnt work.

Students typically are on larger, lower wing loaded canopies are not carrying much forward speed and have flared high and are at that point sinking down vertically. Trying to slide a landing in with low forward speed and high sink rate is a recipe for a back injury. (Very similar to the flight pattern of a round canopy)

A PLF on the other hand provides a degree of compression in the form of you bent knees and rolling action.

If you are taking a down wind landing and were jumping in the highest wind limits and have high ground speed then a slide landing MAY be an option but PLF is often better as you may still have a high sink rate.

[bgrozev 2]

jrodrod

Way to make a straw man argument. Sliding landing is not landing on your back.

That's ironic, since "sliding landing is landing on your back" is a misrepresentation of the post that you replied to.

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Beware internet advice that tells you to ignore something that the poster doesn't understand in the first place.

One of the problems with getting advice from the internet is that it is often hard to differentiate between good and bad advice.

[jrodrod 0]

^BS, "all the pressure is on your tailbone and spine".

That's landing on the back, which is not a sliding landing. Even bouncing landings on a slide attempt might not touch the spine to the ground. Don't know about you but my back is padded by a container, usually with a reserve, which is usually softer than the ground. So even if you land on your back somehow, it would be near the slowest rate of descent and it's the most well protected part of your body after maybe the helmeted head.

I've seen lots of students and landing on the back, as unlikely as it is, (I've seen 0) is more likely when trying a stand-up landing than a sliding landing, which requires getting closer to the ground with better visibility even if looking straight down. Which the student wouldn't be doing anyway because preparing for a slide forces the eyes forward.

In any case, sometimes a TA or peer (someone who recently learned something) is better than the professor (someone who learned something decades ago) at helping along particular tasks because the professor no longer has a clue what it was like in the beginning. Yes I said it, experience can be a detriment at times when teaching the basics.

Instructors don't want to teach something and then tweak it later. But injury prevention should take priority.

[pchapman 261]

You just don't give up do you?

While some of us experienced people can forget some nuances of what it was like as a newbie, you are simply 100% wrong in ever recommending a sliding landing to someone who doesn't have their flare dialled in already -- which the OP doesn't.

"All the pressure is on your tailbone and spine" if you drop down on your ass with any significant vertical speed, which happens if your flare isn't nearly perfect when your feet aren't under you to protect your spine.

Now a well done sliding landing can have some twist put in, resembling a baseball slide, allowing more of a hit on the thigh (and twisting of the pelvis) rather than a direct impact on ass which pile drivers the spine. But again that's a more advanced thing to do once one has a finely tuned flare.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Is that JWest commenting again ?

Life is short ... jump often.

[hillson 0]

jumpsalot-2

Is that JWest commenting again ?

ChrisD?

[bgrozev 2]

jrodrod

^BS, "all the pressure is on your tailbone and spine".

Exactly the misrepresentation I am talking about. How about we look at the whole sentence?

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A mis-timed flare (like when you're learning) with your feet up ready to slide means all the pressure is on your tailbone and spine.

[DJL 232]

jrodrod

***Proper landing technique works best.

I've seen people land barefoot so I'll agree to forget special shoes. There are "jump boots" but they're for round chutes that make you land vertically instead of in a glide.

When starting out, I would suggest the sliding landing. It allows you to get closer to the ground before flaring all the way.

After some jumps and you get more comfortable judging distances, then you can go for standup landings. Students will suck at judging height in the beginning and the sliding landing is more forgiving during that time.

It's not "proper" and probably no AFFI would teach it but looking back, I consider it irresponsible to tell a student to try to land on 2 feet. Landing-related injuries are unfortunately common for AFF students and the sliding landing could've prevented many if not most of them.

Please don't give any more advice. The advice is you're giving is wrong and you don't even seem to understand why it's wrong.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[t1mb0b 0]

Anyone see any benefit to putting something like Dr Scholl's Active Series insoles in your shoes? Could this help long term knee and ankle wear/impact from running out landings?

Granted, I totally agree proper landing technique is paramount.

[DJL 232]

Anything that you'd normally run it. Stretching and regular exercise is probably the best thing for mid-impact injury prevention.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[skytribe 16]

I would think any benefit would be purely psychological and minimal.

[sammielu 3]

I used to wear insoles just because I'm always on my feet (tandems, organizing, or running around on a concrete floor working in a busy bar, I clock more that 10 miles in a normal day) and I wear cheap/thin soled shoes. Continuous proper hydration makes a bigger difference than even the $400 custom insoles.

[riggerrob 558]

That's landing on the back, which is not a sliding landing. Even bouncing landings on a slide attempt might not touch the spine to the ground. Don't know about you but my back is padded by a container, usually with a reserve, which is usually softer than the ground.

.......................................................................................

I tried that once .... did not enjoy it!
I stalled a square into the pea gravel bowl from about 10 feet up. I landed flat on my back! The bottom edge of the reserve container whacked my diaphragm. I promptly stood up, but could not breath for 5 minutes because my diaphragm spasmed similar to the way diaphragm muscles spasm after a punch to the solar plexis.

I tried sliding - with one leg bent - for my first few hundred tandems. Eventually had to sit out the 2014 jumping season as my knee healed from surgery. I still have 3 fewer ligaments in my left knee than most people.

As for tandem sliding on one hip? I often do that because my hip muscles are large enough to pad my pelvis and lower spine. The main reason for converting a tandem landing from a straight slide to a side slide is when a student digs in his heels and tries to front-loop the tandem pair. In that scenario, a hip slide landing does way less damage than a forward tumble. I have tumbled a few tandem landings and did not much enjoy them.

[DJL 232]

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Regarding tandems: there's a minimum of 500 jumps, 3 years, 4 licenses and a coach rating to start tandem training. Landings have to be signed off by the examiner before you get your rating and then continually ok'd by your dz to be employed as a TI, quite the difference from a student landing a canopy for the first time.

As a TI I can attest that if you DO twist your back on a landing you will be absolutely amazed at what comes rolling out of everyone's medicine chest. I look forward to more shitty landings and then sitting on a couch in the AC while the other TIs pick up my slack.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 908]

DJL

******Proper landing technique works best.

I've seen people land barefoot so I'll agree to forget special shoes. There are "jump boots" but they're for round chutes that make you land vertically instead of in a glide.

When starting out, I would suggest the sliding landing. It allows you to get closer to the ground before flaring all the way.

After some jumps and you get more comfortable judging distances, then you can go for standup landings. Students will suck at judging height in the beginning and the sliding landing is more forgiving during that time.

It's not "proper" and probably no AFFI would teach it but looking back, I consider it irresponsible to tell a student to try to land on 2 feet. Landing-related injuries are unfortunately common for AFF students and the sliding landing could've prevented many if not most of them.

Please don't give any more advice. The advice is you're giving is wrong and you don't even seem to understand why it's wrong.

thx , you already posted what i was thinking.

[mjosparky 3]

jrodrod

This is not meant to flame you it is just the way things are. If your profile is correct, at 160+ jumps you should not be giving advice on how to land a canopy, you should be seeking advice. The fact that you are giving advice tells me you think your abilities are better than they are. At your experience level you haven’t got enough time under canopy to teaching someone else how to do it. Like I said this is not meant as a slam its just reality.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Maddingo 21]

I have a question here.

I am still learning to get good landings and it is mostly the no wind conditions that are tricky for me. Give me a moderate wind and I Will land standing up, give me a no wind or a sudden gust from the side I somehow feel that I sink to the ground too fast and I risk injury to my ankles or knees.

I always try to do a two stage flare so I level out first then when I start to sink I fully flare. It is also funny that when I can see that I Will stand up a landing I always cautiously do not apply full flare to the canopy because it swings me on my butt. My instructor didn't like the idea although I explained to him that I only let go of the pressure because I felt I was swinging back too much. The landing was super soft. Maybe he got scared so I wouldn't crash with a lighter flare on a no wind day? I am a very careful student and always understand that every jump, landing is different so I need to adapt. I do not like the idea "land everything the same way" because I believe that is not the case.

So my question is if the rushing ground is something that I have to get used to and run it out or am I doing something wrong here? For me it feels like I have too little forward momentum on my student canopy to land all no wind days on my feet... that said I also realise I can't do much untill I get better at canopy piloting. Is it possible that last 50m inputs slow me down even more and kill the flare power? I don't make sudden jolts but I tend to correct my approach until the last 20m.

[councilman24 36]

jrodrod

Beware internet advice that tells you to ignore something that the poster doesn't understand in the first place.

And beware advice from a 162 jump wonder who is a legand in his own mind.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sammielu 3]

Maddingo

I have a question here.

I am still learning to get good landings and it is mostly the no wind conditions that are tricky for me. Give me a moderate wind and I Will land standing up, give me a no wind or a sudden gust from the side I somehow feel that I sink to the ground too fast and I risk injury to my ankles or knees.

I always try to do a two stage flare so I level out first then when I start to sink I fully flare. It is also funny that when I can see that I Will stand up a landing I always cautiously do not apply full flare to the canopy because it swings me on my butt. My instructor didn't like the idea although I explained to him that I only let go of the pressure because I felt I was swinging back too much. The landing was super soft. Maybe he got scared so I wouldn't crash with a lighter flare on a no wind day? I am a very careful student and always understand that every jump, landing is different so I need to adapt. I do not like the idea "land everything the same way" because I believe that is not the case.

So my question is if the rushing ground is something that I have to get used to and run it out or am I doing something wrong here? For me it feels like I have too little forward momentum on my student canopy to land all no wind days on my feet... that said I also realise I can't do much untill I get better at canopy piloting. Is it possible that last 50m inputs slow me down even more and kill the flare power? I don't make sudden jolts but I tend to correct my approach until the last 20m.

I think you need to talk to your instructors on this one as I'm not quite understanding what you are saying. Here's a few points for you anyway:
-Without wind to slow you down on final, yes you will be going faster.
-If you are landing in no wind, downwind, or crosswind, the steps to flare and land are the same, (this is the land everything the same part) however: it will look different because you're moving faster over the ground, and if there is crosswind you will need to flare more on one side than the other to keep that wing level over your head.
-I don't know what you mean by a "lighter" flare, speed can vary and how far you flare can vary (how far down you move your toggles) - and you should pull them all the way down every time.
-Ask your instructors if a 2 stage flare is appropriate for you and your equipment. Not all (student) canopies respond to that.
-If a full flare swings you forward and you start to swing back before you touch the ground, you flared to high or too fast or both. A perfect flare swings you in front of your canopy putting your feet on the ground with zero forward momentum left. If a flare pops you up, it was too fast. If you flare too early, you plop to the ground or even start to go backwards before you touch down. If you flare too late, you run out of altitude before your hands are all the way down. Ask an instructor to debrief you on your landings, ideally with video.
-The rushing ground is something you have to get used to.
-Don't look at the rushing ground when landing, look out in front of you at the horizon. Use your peripheral vision to identify when it is time to flare.
-Too little momentum to land your student canopy on no wind days??? Thus one is backwards. Landing into the wind slows you down. If there is no wind to slow you down, you will go faster and have more momentum, not less.
-Yes it is harder to learn to flare just right when you're going faster (ie. No wind to slow you down).
-Yes, the last 50m inputs absolutely use up your flare power. A consistent landing pattern, starting in the same place in relation to your target each time, allows you to adjust during your landing pattern, mostly in the base leg. When you turn to final, it's no more adjustment time, rather it's get ready for a safe landing time. That means unless you are steering to avoid an obstacle (which should only need to be a slight turn to land next to the object instead of on top of it), your hands are all the way up until you start your flare.
-Get video of your landings as often as you can and debrief with your instructors. Watch other people's landing debriefs too, you can learn a ton by watching a good flare, one done too fast or slow, or one done too low or high. Maybe video a friends landing as a trade for them videoing yours, buy a 6 pack, and snag an instructor or 2 at the end of the day for a 5 minute lsnding debrief (everyone wins in that equation).

[Maddingo 21]

By lighter I meant from the full stop/stall point I let go of the pressure on the toggles just a bit (few percent maybe) so I glide out straight when the wind is stronger.

Thanks for the clarification of the "swinging" part I'll practice timing my landings better.

By momentum on no wind days I meant to say that there is no additional stopping power from the wind and all you have is your precision and canopies ability to flare.

Thanks for help!