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Gary73

WS-I Requirements?

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As usual, I'll give my "I'm a 400+ jump guy, so what the hell do I know..." disclaimer.

But a couple thoughts:

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Have things gotten so bad that we no longer feel that USPA is us?



It's not a matter of not feeling the USPA "is us". Insofar as we're thinking of ourselves as skydivers, it's us. But we're thinking of ourselves as skydivers and wingsuiters. The USPA is concerned about skydivers generally, and - as hammered home by many people in the other thread - wingsuiting is somehow "different" (or else why do we need an WS/I concept at all!). Although I don't know the composition of the incoming board, I don't believe that any of the people on the electoral slate were principally wingsuiters (I would be happy to be wrong about this). They don't understand us: just look at the valiant (and much appreciated) efforts that were undertaken just to get us recognized as a discipline by the FAI. If the USPA "got" us, that fight wouldn't have been necessary.

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I thought you guys were all about the Tony Suits?



For what it's worth, when I had my first flight instruction at Flock U (as well as all of my the subsequent coaching jumps - I needed them...), there were suits in from a bunch of different manufacturers in inventory to play with. They didn't push Tonysuit on me. I got to jump Tonysuit, as well as PF and (later) Birdman.

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But if you (as an instructor) decide to say fuck it, and take someone up for a jump straight from AFF, its 100% you as an instructor who is to blame. And pointing fingers at the organisation that gave him his 'rating' wont do a thing.



I think the problem is that the "standard of care" for an WS/I is a little vague at the moment. From what I understand DSE is saying, they are trying to establish a more rigorous and detailed program. I think it will result in better training for students. That's a good thing. It will also set the appropriate level of care that instructors should follow when doing different things. Now, that's a double edged sword. If a WS/I follows those rules, the student will (in theory) get a better training experience. But if a WS/I doesn't, a court (and skydiver opinion) will be able to look at the requirements and say, "You fucked up, you didn't do X, when the requirements clearly state that X has to be done."). There will be no debates -- well, fewer debates, this being dropzone.com -- over what should and shouldn't have been checked. That will put "sloppy" WS/Is in a difficult position. And that's probably ultimately a good thing.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Blah, blah, blah ... to all the students, you're adults, act like it.



And to everyone more experienced that writes about his or her experiences and view..do think about the people lurking here for advice when you write or post something...

I anyone was injured or worse because he/she got into this way before they where ready. And did so (lying about jumpnumbers or whatever is needed) based on advice he or she read online from other people that ignored the general recomenditions and started early...than the fingers a lot of people are pointing at the actual person instructing for just or completely onjust reasons, should be focussed on ourselves, and the image we (as a community) seem to put out both online and in real life.

The general rules and recommenditions for jump# and experience have been here from the start.
Its 'making people wanting to get into this sport realise why these recommenditions are there' we should focus on.
And not having them think its just a number, and its okay to lie about that one to cheat their way into this prematurely..

Dont pamper everyone who says they dont have enough jumps and tell em they'll be fine...just tell them to get of their ass and jump their balls off....its all about experience...the more you have...the better you can cope with new things...the safer wingsuit flying as a dicipline will become..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Of course the WSI should check the gear and stuff, like I said if that didn't happen for you something very weird happened. If you still went for the jump without getting a checkup that is weird too ;)

As for accompanying a FF, I remember talking to James about it when I got my PFI patch as some WSI at the time were making it quite expensive to start wingsuiting, the manual that's on my laptop says a few things about this:

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Congratulate the student for successfully completing the course and inform them they are
ready to make their first wingsuit skydive.
Arrange to meet the student after their jump to find out how they got on and to sign their
logbook with the following statement:...



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If the student would like video they should pay for the Instructor slot plus a suitable amount for
the video.



Although it does seem the wording has changed in the version that is now downloadable on the PF website:

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The instructor accompanies the student for their first wing suit jump, remembering to perform a
gear check before boarding and prior to exit.
The Instructor can request their slot to be paid and a small amount for filming (how much is up
to the Instructor). The instructor can decide whether to establish some hand signals with the
student to aid communication during the flight.
NOTE: If the First Flight Course is being conducted at a dropzone operating multiple
aircraft performing simultaneous jump runs (i.e. during a boogie) it is strongly
recommended that the Instructor accompanies the student (with the student paying the
instructors slot). ...



I'll jump with a wingsuit student w/video anytime, if they want me to. If they don't want to pay an extra slot and we both feel comfortable about them going alone, I'll let them. But of course a check by an experienced bird is mandatory ;)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Blah, blah, blah ... to all the students, you're adults, act like it.



And to everyone more experienced that writes about his or her experiences and view..do think about the people lurking here for advice when you write or post something...

I anyone was injured or worse because he/she got into this way before they where ready. And did so (lying about jumpnumbers or whatever is needed) based on advice he or she read online from other people that ignored the general recomenditions and started early...than the fingers a lot of people are pointing at the actual person instructing for just or completely onjust reasons, should be focussed on ourselves, and the image we (as a community) seem to put out both online and in real life.



Did I ignore the general recommendations? Yes. However, I'm content with the image I put forth. Act like an adult and prepare, prepare, prepare ...

PS: I've never given anyone advice to lie about numbers or whatever is needed. I've given advice to learn to track and learn about the gear (long before they begin wingsuiting).
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Girlfriends die.


heyhey...thats just the perverted homicidal maniac in you talking...;)


Good thing I don't have a girlfriend.:$

And I am *not* a perturb .. peev .. pretent .. whatever - I am *not* a homicidal maniac !!
Johan.
I am. I think.

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which is exactly (I feel) is the goal of Flock University in this regard. Non-factory, not selling anything, not specifically associated with any manufacturer

I thought you guys were all about the Tony Suits?

***I suggest we move past manufacturer ratings given over a case of beer and move to an industry-based rating



Why are you so hung up on this? Maybe in the very early days this happened, but nowadays, i've not once witnessed a PFI / BMI aquire their rating without going through the proper training / tests.



Zee,
I'm all about all the suits. I have a Tony, I have two Birdman, and two Phoenix fly suits. One member of the Flock University org is on a manufacturers team. Five members aren't on any manufacturer's team.

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Tonto started something like a wingsuit instructor rating here in South Africa. The rules are very similar to those set out by bird-man.

As far as I know, and can someone from our committee or Taya please correct me if I am wrong, it will be a full rating and it will be considered close to if not slightly higher than a jumpmaster.

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So anyway, if we could get back to the original purpose of this thread, what are each manufacturer's requirements to be a wingsuit instructor? We've only gotten answers regarding Phoenix-Fly and Nitro so far. Can we hear from some instructors or examiners or whatever for the others? Thanks.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

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Given that the word "instructor" seems to imply to many people a very high degree of responsibility (see the Incidents forum), maybe Wingsuit Trainer or Wingsuit Coach would be more appropriate useage, and we should drop the word "student" and use "trainee" instead.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I'm not an WS/I instructor and I doubt I ever will be one (I'll let you guys decide whether it's my un-mad skills or my fear of losing my kid's college savings in a lawsuit that's keeping me from it). ;)

Having said that, I think this is a pretty wise idea. There's an established program (AFF) that has the concepts of "instructor" and "coach" in skydiving. Over the course of time (and lawsuits), certain "standards of care" (e.g., Who's responsible for what? How does it have to be done?, etc.) have grown up around those roles - we (more or less) know who is supposed to do what and how.

It doesn't necessarily follow that if we adopt their names, we automatically have adopted their roles and responsibilities, but it certainly eliminates a lot of the discussion (and potential lawyerishness) about "What is an instructor?", and any argument that a skydiver (or his estate) might have trying to pin greater responsibility on a WS/I than might otherwise be fair...

Hell, call it Wingsuit Jedi/Wingsuit Padawan for all it matters (or, if you're old skool like me, "Wingsuit Master" and "Wingsuit Grasshopper").
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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If you're buddies with the right guy, you can get you WS-I over a cold beer and good jokes from at least one manufacturer. At the moment, IMO, there is little value in the BMI/PFI rating, and it needs to be stepped up with the super-fast growth of wingsuiting.
dunno if it should involve USPA, but should definitely involve wingsuit manufacturers allowing or working with a third-party body to create the rating.
Ratings, however, don't mean much if the instructor doesn't adhere to the BSRs.



Yes, I don't think an actual USPA WSI rating is really necissary.

On the other hand an actual certificate/WSI card given by the respective manufacturer would be a good thing.

When I finished my WSI training, I got a patch and my name added to the manufacturer's website.
The patch doesn't really prove anything. I know a few people that got one without earning it.

My new home dropzone was small enough that when I tried to train someone, the DZO asked for my credentials and (red-faced) I could only say, check the website for my name. Luckily, he did and accepted it at face value.

Manufacturer ratings have been lacking for a long time but it ultimately falls to the local dropzone/skydiving community to notice someone teaching new skills, without the necessary experience or a good knowledge of the BSRs.

I love wingsuiting and teaching.
I took the time and put forth the expense to become a WSI.

It would be great to feel more legitimate.

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She had two jumps on a Prodigy. That's it. But she had a great PFI!

This stuff happens with canopies all the time, too. Jumpers lie about experience to get gear. Not much the manufacturer can do. This is generally where the S&TA or local wingsuiters will say, "you can't jump this until you've dialed in a smaller suit". Like canopies (but in reverse).

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I’m pretty new to wing suits but FWIW, I don’t think a USPA wing suit instructor rating is necessary at this point either. Advanced skills "coaching" might be more appropriate. Still, I would support the idea if I thought it could noticeably improve wing suit training or safety. I’m not convinced that would happen if the idea were to be implemented in the near future however.

What we probably need first is consensus among the major wing suit manufacturers, present manufacturer instructor rating holders and other experienced flyers interested, on a course of action and the standards, and then following those standards. We already have USPA recommendations though there’s apparently not consensus on even those minimal standards…at least from what I can see...

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