WS-I Requirements?

[Gary73 8]

Hi,

I know that I felt that I had been well prepared by my instructor before making my first wingsuit jump, but the incident at Sebastian has me curious as to what requirements each wingsuit manufacturer has for becoming an instructor for their products. If we could get one reply from someone with each manufacturer rating that would be great.

For that matter, do all manufacturers have programs like BirdMan's for training and certifying instructors?

Also, is it considered acceptable to refer to yourself as a "wingsuit instructor" without having a manufacturer rating of any kind?

Thanks!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[unclecharlie95 3]

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/pfi.htm

sorry about that!

BASEstore.it

[Gary73 8]

Quote

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/pfi.htm
sorry about that!

Thanks!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[NSEMN8R 0]

From the Nitro Rigging website:

To become an EGI you must have a minimum of 500 skydives (or a combination of skydives and BASE jumps), a minimum of 100 wingsuit jumps, the possession of at least one Nitro Rigging wingsuit, and the successful completion of the Nitro Rigging Instructor course, of course good looks will do nothing but good! We will consider full or partial wave of the rating requirements if the candidate is already a BMI or a PFI or if she/he has other exceptional expertise.

EGIs also will be responsible to eradicate the myth that wingsuit flying is a dangerous discipline. We know that wingsuit flying is not any more dangerous than RW or FF. With the proper basic training anyone could enjoy wingsuit flying. EGIs should be passionate about wingsuits and spread the love of wingsuit flying!

[kallend 1,623]

Deja vu all over again.

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3147042#3147042

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gary73 8]

Not exactly. I went through the first three pages of that thread and didn't see a list of requirements by different manufacturers, just the usual off-topic stuff. I do understand that USPA doesn't have a wingsuit instructor rating; I was just trying to get a feel for what the various manufacturers are doing. Some have formal programs, but I don't see anything on the Tony Suits site, for example, so I was hoping that someone in the know could enlighten us. This is a matter which I suspect will be getting some attention over the next few months.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[DSE 3]

If you're buddies with the right guy, you can get you WS-I over a cold beer and good jokes from at least one manufacturer. At the moment, IMO, there is little value in the BMI/PFI rating, and it needs to be stepped up with the super-fast growth of wingsuiting.
dunno if it should involve USPA, but should definitely involve wingsuit manufacturers allowing or working with a third-party body to create the rating.
Ratings, however, don't mean much if the instructor doesn't adhere to the BSRs.

[mccordia 73]

I fully agree with you there DSE

Slagging of manufacturers and their instructional programs aside, every instructor/coaching 'badge' is only worth what the 'instructor' himself puts in. Not everyone 'who talks the talk, walks the walk'

The general concensus of 200 jumps gets (knowingly) subtly bent, or severly broken by a lot of people. Dispite what their 'rating' supposedly says they should be doing.

Regardles of who 'rated' you.
A non factory/team/school linked website with 'trustworthy' coaches would be worth more at the moment than any of de EG/WSI/PFI/BMI etc anyone could wave at you...

As the badge you wear, regardless if its EG-I, WS-I, BM-I or PF-I is only worth what the actual person who is instructing actually puts in in terms of skills, effort, safety, adhering to the rules (and subsequent credibility) with regards to his actions...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

Quote

A non factory/team/school linked website with 'trustworthy' coaches would be worth more at the moment than any of de EG/WSI/PFI/BMI etc anyone could wave at you...

...

which is exactly (I feel) is the goal of Flock University in this regard. Non-factory, not selling anything, not specifically associated with any manufacturer (although Tonysuits and Birdman did sponsor in part the small Flock University booklet sent out recently to dropzones).
Similar to Skydive University...
For wingsuiting, it's the wild, wild west out there right now. There are good sheriffs and bad sheriffs. There are those that ride into town to drink at the bar and citizens be damned, and there are those that are looking to build a new city worthy of being a destination for travelers.
If we don't self-govern, then we'll have USPA regulating us, DZO's scared of us, and wingsuits will develop a bad rep worse than they already have. I'm still a newb compared to a lot of you, but already I can see the trend and the dividing line between adherence to BSR's and those that say "f**k it, they're not FAR's" and take out wingsuiters with far less than 200 jumps. Rating or not, I believe there should be some form of accountability.
We've had two wingsuit - from - aircraft fatalities in just over a year. Both were well below the recommended jump numbers. Both were very young men. Neither of them should have been in a wingsuit at their experience levels, IMO. One died on his 118th skydive, the other on his 110th. One, no one has said "boo" about his instructor, the other, many wants to crucify.
Curiously, the first guy had been prevented from wearing a wingsuit at his local DZ less than three weeks before he died. The second guy had been turned down by a WX instructor the day before he died.
Both are tragic. I suggest we move past manufacturer ratings given over a case of beer and move to an industry-based rating (of course I have a semi-vested interest) that at least isn't motivated to sell the student something. if this means a Flock U rating, great. If it means a USPA rating, sign me up. I really don't care which way it goes but we need a way for DZ's and manufacturers to have at least some enforceable control over who is jumping what and when.
Some folks consider it criminal to sell a 100 jump wonder a Velo loaded at 1.7 or that Katana loaded at 1.5...but the same person considers it OK to take a guy with 50, 100, 150 jumps on a wingsuit skydive.
Recently at a Florida dropzone I met a woman who was so excited to tell me about her new Stealth she'd ordered. SO excited. I asked her what she'd been jumping up to this point.
She had two jumps on a Prodigy. That's it. But she had a great PFI!

BTW, Skittles, Millertime 24, I'm *really* proud of you guys.

[Gary73 8]

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If we don't self-govern, then we'll have USPA regulating us, ...

Have things gotten so bad that we no longer feel that USPA is us?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[Zeemax 0]

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which is exactly (I feel) is the goal of Flock University in this regard. Non-factory, not selling anything, not specifically associated with any manufacturer

I thought you guys were all about the Tony Suits?

***I suggest we move past manufacturer ratings given over a case of beer and move to an industry-based rating

Why are you so hung up on this? Maybe in the very early days this happened, but nowadays, i've not once witnessed a PFI / BMI aquire their rating without going through the proper training / tests.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[unclecharlie95 3]

Quote

She had two jumps on a Prodigy. That's it. But she had a great PFI!

I will look into this as the Stealth user manual clearly recommends "75 prior wingsuit jumps".

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/articles%20stvari/stealth_usermanual_1.pdf

I presume she intends to make more jumps before her suit arrives.

At the same time I have also heard of many jumpers with a handful of jumps ordering large suits from other manufacturers also.

It is the same problem faced by the canopy manufacturers. Common sense is not always a given.

BASEstore.it

[dragon2 0]

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nowadays, i've not once witnessed a PFI / BMI aquire their rating without going through the proper training / tests.

Um.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mccordia 73]

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I suggest we move past manufacturer ratings given over a case of beer

I do think one thing we ALSO need to move past is the fact that a lot of people out there teaching and instructing did get proper training and coaching on their instructional skills.

I dont know if a whole new program linked to a specific school instead of a manufacturer is the answer. But do applaud the effort.

But having a form/source of validation for instructors, to see if what they do is correct and safe. That would be a nice thing.
Sadly a program reviewing instructors (from each manufacturer) and (if needed) pulling the instructor number (lets refrain from using the word rating) isnt something we're seeing too much off (though there are a few cases where this DID happen).

I think the biggest responsibilty for now is with the people teaching.

NOTE: This is all NOT linked in any for or shape to the recent accident!

Regardless of the cause (or guilt/blame a lot of people seem to want to focus on), there is a good chance this recent accident may cause some bigger ripples in our already turbulent (tiny) private pool.

The stance organisations such as the USPA will take on the recent accident and lack of jump# on sayd person could go both ways...just hoping the outcome is a positive one for everyone involved (and the whole dicipline/sport in general).

Wishing everyone involved a lot of strength...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dragon2 0]

I seem to have a recurring problem over the years with a wingsuit instructor who thinks it's ok to sell/let wingsuit students of mine jump big suits, and is genuinely amazed/outraged ("who are you to decide he can't jump this") when I tell him a Blade for a 2nd wingsuit jump is a no-go at our DZ.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Gadget 0]

maybe you can expand on that. Two letter infantile sounds are not verry helpfull in any discusion or conversation.

If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes???
My logbook

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I seem to have a recurring problem over the years with a wingsuit instructor who thinks it's ok to sell/let wingsuit students of mine jump big suits, and is genuinely amazed/outraged ("who are you to decide he can't jump this") when I tell him a Blade for a 2nd wingsuit jump is a no-go at our DZ.

Yes..though sayd individual DID do a full instructors course (which I witnessed in Sweden, at the Hercules Boogie).

What you are doing now is taking instructors who did get proper training, but interprete the rules in their own way. And then blaming the manufacturers for that one.

You (as an enthousiast at the time, and not as an instructor) and another instructor read me a manual on a fridaynight, and then told me and a good friend of mine to grab a suit the next day and jump.
Not YOU or an instructor present to check our gear, brief us on the jump. nothing.

Not saying its a bad thing (though not what Id personaly prefer or recommend). But its how each instructor takes the training they had, and translates that to their actions which determines what the instruction is worth.

You can get all the BMI/WSI/PFI training in the world. But if you (as an instructor) decide to say fuck it, and take someone up for a jump straight from AFF, its 100% you as an instructor who is to blame. And pointing fingers at the organisation that gave him his 'rating' wont do a thing.

The only difference is that AFF licences get pulled if somebody doesnt adhere to the known rules/recommendations. And in the case of WSI/PFI/BMI/EG-I that person will most likely just move on to teaching the next person...
If people took a stronger stance on that one, and notify sayd manufacturers/organisations of flawed teaching/training of certain individuals, than instructors numbers COULD be pulled.

But people always seem to rather want to publicly name a person and sling some mud his/her way (or at least just give enough info so everyone can guess who it is) instead of showing some spine and writing the manufacturer/rating involved and notifying them of the actions of sayd individual (which is something that can be done quietly.....you dont do dirty laundry in public)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[unclecharlie95 3]

Agreed DSE and Jarno - An agreement amongst the manufacturers on the requirements for students and instructors would be a good starting point.

BASEstore.it

[dragon2 0]

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You (as an enthousiast at the time, and not as an instructor) and another instructor read me a manual on a fridaynight, and then told me and a good friend of mine to grab a suit the next day and jump.
Not YOU or an instructor present to check our gear, brief us on the jump. nothing.

That is Henny's (and Phoenix-Fly) style of teaching: you get the course and of course you get a gearcheck and stuff (if you didn't that's weird, I know I did on all my wingsuit jumps with one of Henny's suits) but we don't "force" you to get coaching for the first few jumps if you don't want it. We'll jump with you (w/video) for slot if you want or you can go solo, your choice.

I find beginner wingsuiters will get feedback anyway when they start to jump with others, and will ask for one-on-one coaching for something specific or for a photo shoot, but not the first few jumps. Maybe I'm biased since although I paid for slot/video from my first jump I never did get to even see it/got debriefed due to said jumper (he wasn't a WSI at the time) having to leave the DZ in a hurry. Didn't miss it all that much though

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

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maybe you can expand on that. Two letter infantile sounds are not verry helpfull in any discusion or conversation.

I was busy typing... See my post right above yours.

Rumours I heard from different people say something else as Jarno says, oh well, right or wrong, I got problems with the guy as long as he keeps doing what he's doing.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[virgin-burner 1]

i'm just having an interesting conversation with someone.

if the manufacturers themselves dont even follow their own recommendations, or their own instructing program, who will!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mccordia 73]

Quote

Quote

Not YOU or an instructor present to check our gear, brief us on the jump. nothing.

That is Henny's (and Phoenix-Fly) style of teaching

I dont see that listed anywhere as the Phoenix-Fly style of teaching.
Having the person who rents/gives you the suit be present for at least a pincheck and seeing if everything is rigged properly would be a nice one (from a safety pov.)

I would personaly rather see (non fulltime jumpers) give the FFC for free, and use the 20 or so euros on the instructors slot.
Than taking that money and not giving a whole lot more than reading a pdf to someone. ymmv...

Having an instructor JUMP with someone didnt use to be manditory, but having that instructor make sure the material is rigged and used properly before boarding is something no instructor should skip for a first jump.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Hagen 0]

and I'd like to add one more thing to the discussion - from the point of view of those who didn't listen and started too early.

it happened that someoe made skyflying 'safe'. I mean, someone's quoted some manufacturer's docs telling that wingsuit flying is as safe as RW or FF. and we often here stories about how easy it is to fly and how low is the rate of fatalities in the sport.

I'm not a freeflyer, and I don't really know how and when people start doing RW in the other world. but here you can start doing it right after AFF - of course, after having some short RW course with an instructor (or, honestly, even without it).

also we always hear stories about people who started flying having 70 or 80 jumps. luckily, we rarely hear the other stories - about those who died being not experienced and flying a wingsuit.

or unluckily. it's wuite possible that if the poor guy knew that it's not that simple and safe, maybe he wouldn't have worn the wingsuit on. however, if I had heard the story before I started, I'd surely postponed my first flight. I'm a coward.

no, I don't offer to frighten eager newcomers with the terrible fatalities stories. but I think that the image of skyflying should be changed a little bit.

it's not as simple as RW or FF, imho.

[virgin-burner 1]

and you found out about it NOW!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JohanW 0]

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.. it's quite possible that if the poor guy knew that it's not that simple and safe, ..

He knew. Chuck told him. And refused to instruct him.

I have a couple of rather unhumble opinions, and this is one of them: Impatient beginners die. Girlfriends die. Stay in this sport long enough, and friends die. And it sucks.



Edit: a rather more humble opinion of mine is that FF is not simple, though. I suck at it. Flying a wingsuit is a lot easier, to me. Decent RW is not simple either, though I don't entirely suck at it. Wingsuit RW is not exactly simple, but at least getting separation is easier.

Johan.
I am. I think.