Close to tail. Watch out.

[fasted3 0]

This is close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5LYaiMlRcw

Avoiding the tail is easy.
Flying right out the door is not a good way to do it.
Be careful out there.

But what do I know?

[mccordia 73]

If you can Underline a bit of text, its also not that hard to make an actual LINK out of it by choosing the URL button instead of the u button..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[fasted3 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5LYaiMlRcw


Duh.

But what do I know?

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

This is close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5LYaiMlRcw

Avoiding the tail is easy.
Flying right out the door is not a good way to do it.
Be careful out there.

Pretty cool the way he (or she) flies back IN the door!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lurch 0]

Damn! Cutting it a litle close, there...
How you been, Ed?
Not quite 5 years back I was making a science out of exiting Otters like that. This was before I started the wingsuit school, at the time I was the only bird around so with no flock to fly with I was amusing myself with various flight experiments in distance speed and time. I had a pilot who was willing to jack the exit speed up about 5 knots per jump, let me feel it out real careful like. I'd cross my arms across my chest so my wings wouldn't snap open and decapitate me on the tail-at 140+ knots I'd blow straight down the length of the fuselage without dropping any till I saw the tail go by overhead, then pop the wings and climb. It was insane, but fun, and I actually never got anywhere near that close to the tail...scary. Interesting video, shows what would have happened if I hadn't been so careful. I eventually got a PFI rating, trained the first few birds around here in what eventually became Flock U when Justin started promoting it and quit doing those exits, half because I didn't want to set a bad example for the new guys and half because I figured if I kept doing it complacency was going to bag me and the day I made that mistake I'd never even know what hit me. Tail to the back of the head. No thanks. I had a helmet and a Cypres and I didn't want to test either one.
The whole experiment backfired on me later-since I'd got my reflexes dialed in to high speed exits from Otters, the next half-dozen times I had a chance to do high speed exits from tailgates I blew em all because I kept instinctively compensating for a one-sided windblast that wasn't there. Embarassing. Resulted in funny video. I should have jumped out sideways, probably would have worked fine.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[timve 0]

Quote

Quote

This is close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5LYaiMlRcw

Avoiding the tail is easy.
Flying right out the door is not a good way to do it.
Be careful out there.

Pretty cool the way he (or she) flies back IN the door!

few inches of taking the jumpcraft down ... or to get decapitated ... is there a skydivingmovies discussion going on somewhere ?

oxygen wingsuitteam
check out our newest movie
Trainingweek Seville Spain 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwtzc1RDzDQ

[fasted3 0]

Hey Lurch,
Life is good. Looking forward to flying with you again this coming year. I can't imagine any safe way to do this. Looks like russian roulette.
This one didn't need a warning:
Don't try this at home.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

Quote

few inches of taking the jumpcraft down ... or to get decapitated ... is there a skydivingmovies discussion going on somewhere ?

No, this near miss didn't get much discussion.

Too bad, as this can be a major hazard to wingsuit flying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VeUee-qBVM

In this video, I made a careless exit. (It is in the first 5 seconds,) and resulted in my passing fairly close to the tail. I remember the jump, and clearly seeing a few feet of clearance, but after seeing the video, I realized that I needed to change my technique.
This was a normal speed exit. Had I done this on a high speed exit, it could easily have done me in.

But what do I know?

[Sangi 0]

The first video looked really awesome regardless of the danger, because you actually looked as if you were flying a long with the plane without losing altitude!

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[phoenixlpr 0]

Remember, arch on exit.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I'd cross my arms across my chest so my wings wouldn't snap open

I notice a lot of people doing this.
Why not just put your arms behind you. You have the option of controlling the amount of wing you expose (from 0% showing/closed to 100% open), and there is no danger of wind getting caught in/under your arm wings and snapping open the surface with a big bang.
On top of that, for a lot of beginners, putting arms in front of their chest, crossed, seems to also tuck their chin, and combined create the bad tenancy to lean forward in the exit, de-arching. Cupping air, and doing the exact thing you're trying to prevent.
Putting the arms back forces people to do a better arch as well.

But the safety issues aside, the first point mentioned, having more control over the mount of wing you want (or dont want) to expose, is the biggest plus.

It also presents a smoother underside to the relative airstream, and when combined with a nice flat exit (not standing upright, bleeding of all the forward speed, and than going into the flat flying position to start building up forward speed again), enables you to do smooth transitions into full flights (once past the tail).

If you're doing high speed exits from a tailgate aircraft, going from zero wing to 100% wing from a 'hands crossed in front of the chest' position is also the way to explode/tear your wings. As the wings receive a sudden hit of wind. Forcing them open.
As opposed to your arms determining how hard you push against the wind. And muscle strength determining how smooth or hard you are able to push the wings open. Instead of needing force to keep them shut.

Its also people who suddenly slap their wing open like this, that usually end up slapping other jumpers in the face on those same high speed exits..

I have 400+ wingsuit jumps from Cessna 182/206 aircraft, where you can almost put your feet on the tail when sitting in the door. And even on high speed exits, its not an issue.


Also note that there are two ways of exiting an airplane, and hitting the tail.
Standing upright, and opening up. 100% drag. Sudden deceleration into the wing. Usually this has people hit (or come close) with the back of their head. Its just the wingsuit turning into a massive airbreak.
Or flat, and flying. Speed/Lift being the cause of the flying going upward (which seems to be what we see in most video examples here).

The plane diving is also one to watch. Make sure the pilot gives you a few seconds, and doesnt throw it fully into its side/nose the moment you exit.


side-note
I am working on a new flight-manual video (or should say, was a few months ago, and should continue) on exits/body positions. As a lot of people seem to be interested in this subject.
If anybody has nice examples of exit positions in video (preferably one person in frame), shoot me a PM if you would like to contribute..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Teigen 0]

For me (wingsuit whuffo) Jarnos post totally makes sense! whenever you bring up such a discussion you will always have self-appointed SkyGods who has different opinions just looking to bicker about the subject! But Jarno always seem to have very good posts on the wingsuit subject! And seeing that he will most likely accompany me on my first flight i take his advice and learn from it!

Not trying to blow smoke up your ass Jarno!

OT: that was close allright, be careful! i remember seeing a vid of a King Air stalling with people stacking up. Ripping them off. Having the tailwing pass literally an inch from a jumpers back, My worst fear is having a screw up in the door!

[fasted3 0]

Good post Jarno, Thanks!
That video was 200 jumps ago, and I think every one since then has been with plenty of clearance from the tail. Seeing what I had done was enough to illustrate a growing complacency, and cause a permanent change in my technique.
PS, does anybody think the video would look the same had this been a no cut exit?
Airspeed and wing size are factors that can make the difference between a close call and impact. IMO.
It is interesting to hear different methods of keeping the wings shut. Probably any one that works is fine. Most important is holding it long enough. When I see the tail go by, I know it's time to open up. Not before.

But what do I know?

[DSE 3]

Quote

Good post Jarno, Thanks!
That video was 200 jumps ago, and I think every one since then has been with plenty of clearance from the tail. Seeing what I had done was enough to illustrate a growing complacency, and cause a permanent change in my technique.
PS, does anybody think the video would look the same had this been a no cut exit?
Airspeed and wing size are factors that can make the difference between a close call and impact. IMO.
It is interesting to hear different methods of keeping the wings shut. Probably any one that works is fine. Most important is holding it long enough. When I see the tail go by, I know it's time to open up. Not before.

Read the paper Jan Meyer linked to in the Incidents forum. It points out pretty clearly that while airspeed plays a role in the likelihood of a tail strike, it's a relatively minor role. Seems to me someone else thought that too, but there is a difference between instinct and data. Hopefully you'll accept her opinion.
Glad you survived that exit too.
Jarno presented me with his concept for closing up a while ago, and I've tried it. It's odd, and definitely not comfortable at first, but it does provide for a clean exit. When floating, it's a little harder, IMO

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why to use something else than you teach on FFC? There was only one thing there: arch.

[mccordia 73]

Its quite similar to the normal 'hard delta' bodyposition, taught on most DZs for staticline courses.
Tailstrikes aside, its also an armwing position allowing more control, flying your exit (flying as in, having tight controll surfaces.

Dont fold wings and turn em into cupped plastic bags. Keep them tight, always, as one smooth surface, and have your shoulder be the hinge.
Its one simple move. But if your past xxx wingsuitjumps had a different exit/flying style, changing that habbit will feel insecure/new strange compared to what you are used to.

Look at how the wings on Yves Rossi's wing unfold...its a hard wing, but the same technique...
I will try and post some foot/bellymount shots.

But just think about the mid position opening up. Back to front, or arms crossed in front of your chest. The later one still doesnt give you any control surfaces, and once you open them up. 100% will be your next step..

Regardless of technique..keep watching eachothers exits, and give your friend/flyingbuddy a firm slap on the hand if you see something scary. Watching out for eachothers actions in exits, seperation and donning of legstraps is what keeps us alive...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Teigen 0]

It would be interesting to see shots from a static camera on the fuselage! if its doable! At least on a cessna it shuldn't be that hard to pull off!

[fasted3 0]

Quote

The first video looked really awesome regardless of the danger, because you actually looked as if you were flying a long with the plane without losing altitude!

All I see is wings coming open far too soon. Dumb.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

Quote

Read the paper Jan Meyer linked to in the Incidents forum. It points out pretty clearly that while airspeed plays a role in the likelihood of a tail strike, it's a relatively minor role. Seems to me someone else thought that too, but there is a difference between instinct and data. Hopefully you'll accept her opinion.

>>>Nope. You know that sufficient airspeed is enough to pop up above the plane, as seen in tailgate exits. Why do you persist in denying that the same thing can happen from a side exit, as in an Otter, when the air speed is increased?
If you won't pop up at 80 kts. but will at 100, then it just makes sense to me that you are at a higer risk if you open your wings too soon at the higher airspeed.
Same thing with a beginner suit vs an advanced wing. You may not get the lift required to wipe out in an Intro at a given speed, but could easily pop up in a big wing.
It does require an extra jolt of speed to attain lift in a wingsuit. This can easily be imparted by the airplane. In any case, all I have done is advise caution, no matter the speed or wingsuit used.

Glad you survived that exit too.
/reply]
I know you are. When all is said and done, we both want everyone to go home safe at the end of the day.

But what do I know?

• Quote

[DSE 3]

Not gonna keep arguing with you on this one, Ed, but the proof is in the putting, and the proof is that more camera flyers and fun jumpers have had tail strikes than wingsuits have. The speed of the aircraft isn't nearly as relevant by comparison, and Jan's data proves this.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

Why to use something else than you teach on FFC? There was only one thing there: arch.

I dont teach anything else in the FFC.
Exit, arch. Head in your neck, arms back, feet bent and on your ass.
Its the 'mummy' arm position other people use that surprises me.

If you want to dive in freefall, and minimize lift, I gues they also swoop their arms back. I dont see why (in the exit) you would suddenly do different and put your arms in front..
Counter productive in many ways..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[980 0]

Quote

putting

pudding

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Not gonna keep arguing with you on this one, Ed, but the proof is in the putting, and the proof is that more camera flyers and fun jumpers have had tail strikes than wingsuits have. The speed of the aircraft isn't nearly as relevant by comparison, and Jan's data proves this.

There are, of course, more fun jumpers and camera fliers overall.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[fasted3 0]

What, now you don't want to argue? Well, since you are stuck with the side that exit speed doesn't matter, I don't blame you. Popping out and climbing in a wingsuit is all too possible, and at high speed we can gain altitude. Hello.

But what do I know?

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

putting

pudding

Not necessarily correct. There are historical references to both, one relating to having put the King's game in a birdbag, the other dealing with tasting the pudding.

But if it makes you feel better...