What is the wingsuit mod for containers?

[Butters 0]

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There is nothing "frivolous" about closed lower main container corners. The closed lower corners were and are still are an important step in main parachute deployment allowing for proper "staging" of the parachute deployment system. It's called "friction staging". It allows for full pilot chute and bridle inflation/ extraction prior to the deployment bag lift off, thus minimizing deployment problems. Your reserve container is full of friction staging technology. Trust me it's not for looks, it's for methodical/ predictable parachute deploments time after time! Asthetics are purly a by-product of this valuable and thechnicaly proven science. Hope this clears up WHY parachute container corners (upper and lower) are the way they are!

Am I missing something? The pilot chute will be inflated and the bridle will be extracted before the pin is pulled (unless you have a horseshoe malfunction) ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LouDiamond 1]

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Am I missing something?

Yes and this is one of those things that is hard to describe over the internet, let alone in person. If you picture a deployment from pitch through a fully inflated canopy you will notice that the PC and bridle are always above the remaining components of the system. PC/bridle pulls the pin which opens the container, the D bag rotates as the bridle exerts tension on it (this is where the friction staging comes in). The D bag is extracted from the main pack tray and the 12-18" of lines and risers are tensioned as the jumpers starts to transition from a horizontal to an upright position as the remaining stowed lines are pulled free and the canopy is extracted from the D bag.

What can happen when there is no friction staging on the D bag is that the normal sequence is disrupted and one or a few things can happen simultaneously out of sequence ,which causes deployment problems. When the D bag immediately comes free simultaneously as the pin is pulled it can accelerate and as stated, rise above or even with the PC/bridle. This can lead to the canopy deploying out of the d bag before there is proper tension on the risers, entangle on itself and in all cases cause undesirable openings. Which is what I believe Skwrl is describing about his openings in post #2. The reason the dynamic corners work on base rigs without these issues is due to there being no D bag attached to the system, it is also the reason why there is a distinct difference between a base opening and a skydiving opening.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Butters 0]

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Am I missing something?

Yes and this is one of those things that is hard to describe over the internet, let alone in person. If you picture a deployment from pitch through a fully inflated canopy you will notice that the PC and bridle are always above the remaining components of the system. PC/bridle pulls the pin which opens the container, the D bag rotates as the bridle exerts tension on it (this is where the friction staging comes in). The D bag is extracted from the main pack tray and the 12-18" of lines and risers are tensioned as the jumpers starts to transition from a horizontal to an upright position as the remaining stowed lines are pulled free and the canopy is extracted from the D bag.

What can happen when there is no friction staging on the D bag is that the normal sequence is disrupted and one or a few things can happen simultaneously out of sequence ,which causes deployment problems. When the D bag immediately comes free simultaneously as the pin is pulled it can accelerate and as stated, rise above or even with the PC/bridle. This can lead to the canopy deploying out of the d bag before there is proper tension on the risers, entangle on itself and in all cases cause undesirable openings. Which is what I believe Skwrl is describing about his openings in post #2. The reason the dynamic corners work on base rigs without these issues is due to there being no D bag attached to the system, it is also the reason why there is a distinct difference between a base opening and a skydiving opening.

I'm still missing something ... what would cause the pilot chute to deflate or the bridle to collapse after the pin is pulled allowing the deployment bag to rise above either?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[mccordia 73]

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When the D bag immediately comes free simultaneously as the pin is pulled it can accelerate and as stated,

Would love to see the D bag that creates the same amount of drag, as the pilotchute thats already at bridlestretch (since the pin is already pulled).
And then (somehow) overtake an inflated pilotchute (which is actually whats pulling the bag out of the no-relative wind/burble area on your back).

Does sound like a malfunction very likely to hapen if you pull out a pin, while standing around on the ground. But in the air...
Ive heard you tell this one quite a few times..but still never met or heard of anyone that experienced this one..

But if its a message your rig sponsor wants out there...sure thing bob

A canopy (on a baserig) seems to have more drag than a D-bag..sure sounds like a malfunction that would be much more likely on basegear if rigs where made with fully open corners there...ooh..wait..they are

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[aerodynamite 0]

I think that good opening position and not always opening from the full flight the bridle lenght and cutted corners are just hi-fi tuning. You really don´t need that at all.

Just concentrate on your opening position and let it fall before throwing. No problems.

If you want ro throw from full flight, the cutted corners shall help you. Otherwise why bother? The lenght of bridle helps you if you have bad opening position. Close your wings and keep your knees together and no problems shall occur.

- No mercy in the flock! Straighten your legs!!! -

[LouDiamond 1]

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Ive heard you tell this one quite a few times..but still never met or heard of anyone that experienced this one

You don't have to believe me, just ask anyone who's been around skydiving for more than a few years and remembers when rig corners were not sewn together or e-mail one of the H/C manufacturers and ask them. I am sure they can explain it a lot better than I can.

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But if its a message your rig sponsor wants out there...sure thing bob

It has nothing to do with that, its about not reinventing the wheel or in this case not making mistakes that were already made back when most people here hadn't even considered skydiving. Ya know that whole saying about you're doomed to make the same mistakes again if you don't know your history.

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A canopy (on a baserig) seems to have more drag than a D-bag..sure sounds like a malfunction that would be much more likely on basegear if rigs where made with fully open corners there...ooh..wait..they are

Take a deep breath and go back and read where I explained the difference between a base rig and a skydiving rig that uses a D BAG.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

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When the D bag immediately comes free simultaneously as the pin is pulled it can accelerate and as stated, rise above or even with the PC/bridle.

Add another one to the list that says this makes no sense, physics-wise. The drag on the PC is far too great.

I remember hearing years ago (from an RWS rigger I believe) that you should leave 1/3 of the stitching intact, the reason being that it gives the bag a lip to "rotate over" to proper orientation... and for this very same reason packing grommet to BOC can lead to very nasty deployments UNLESS you cut the corners all the way.

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You don't have to believe me, just ask anyone who's been around skydiving for more than a few years and remembers when rig corners were not sewn together or e-mail one of the H/C manufacturers and ask them. I am sure they can explain it a lot better than I can.

I just PMed Bill Booth to see if he will chime in. Let's hope he does.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

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if it wasn't a legitimate issue, we would see dynamic corners standard from skydiving rig manufacturers today.

Disregarding any potential safety issues (whether or not they exist) that would discourage using dynamic corners...

What would be the reason for putting dynamic corners on a normal skydiving rig? It is harder to pack and offers no real benefit for freefall (non-WS) deployments. So even if there were no "legitimate issues," I don't think we'd see dynamic corners standard, as you say, because there's no reason for it.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

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What would be the reason for putting dynamic corners on a normal skydiving rig? It is harder to pack and offers no real benefit for freefall (non-WS) deployments.

FWIW, I have been told by several packers (and emphatically so by Alex at Pepperell) that he *prefers* packing my Voodoo with the "dynamic corners" because it's easier vs more difficult. I too, find that I prefer packing it vs my Talon FX or FS.
I'm not gonna get into the argument of cut corners being more or less dangerous. I only have around 100 jumps on this rig, and while I prefer how it feels both in wingsuit and normal freefall...I don't have enough experience, knowledge, or evidence in one direction or another. If Sandy Reid tells me that the cut-corner being more likely to cause an incident is a bullshit story, I'm going to accept his belief as fact, given that he's a pretty experienced rig designer who offers this mod at no extra cost.

[jakee 1,254]

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Take a deep breath and go back and read where I explained the difference between a base rig and a skydiving rig that uses a D BAG.

But you didn't explain why that makes it not a problem on BASE rigs. Like Jarno says, it's surely self evident that a big wodge of exposed canopy (BASE deployment) is going to be affected more by the issues you describe than a tight, compact D-bag would be...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[The111 0]

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If Sandy Reid tells me that the cut-corner being more likely to cause an incident is a bullshit story, I'm going to accept his belief as fact, given that he's a pretty experienced rig designer who offers this mod at no extra cost.

Who's Sandy Reid, pardon my ignorance? I'm assuming the designer or your rig (Voodoo)?

And you say "if" he tells you it's bullshit, I'm assuming he did tell you such? In which case, we now have one real H/C mfr weighing in.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

Yes, Sandy chuckled pretty hard when I asked about this subject a few weeks back. Yes, he is the designer of the Voodoo and other RI products.

[edit] posted this originally from my Blackberry, and typing isn't exactly the most accurate in a moving vehicle...

It was specifically brought up to me in a PM that my new Voodoo rig may be dangerous. I spoke with one rig manufacturer while I happened to be in Florida at the time I got the PM, and while the person I spoke with wasn't a designer, he laughed a bit, and said it was nonsense. Then I called Sandy Reid on the phone and he mentioned this myth as coming from one specific person, and laughed pretty hard about it, with a lot of other comments I won't publish, just in case I got it wrong... but I'm very certain about him laughing and feeling it's a joke to be concerned about cut corners. I can tell you that my line twists are virtually non-existent with this new rig, and opening in a full track (which is somewhat common for me) is no problem at all. Additionally, I simply like how it feels coming off my back regardless of whether it's a freefly jump, wingsuit jump, or camera jump. I "feel" the release better.
Packing...easy as pie with the Voodoo and open corners. It's a simple tuck in, and it looks nice, even with a canopy that is slightly too large (jumping a Sabre II 150 in a container made for a Storm 150).
Like I said...I don't have the wherewithall to personally dispute what one manufacturer or rigger is purporting; I have absolute faith in Rigging Innovations and Sandy's designs, and I have absolute faith that the deployments I've experienced thus far will continue to be similar in the future.
As RI offers this at no additional charge, there is no marketing dog in the hunt either, so far as I can see. They do charge a little extra for the 9' bridle, and Sandy recommended nothing longer than a 9' bridle to me (although they are available).

[LouDiamond 1]

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So even if there were no "legitimate issues," I don't think we'd see dynamic corners standard, as you say, because there's no reason for it.

I think you missed the point. This used to be the standard back in the day. Once the potential issues were identified, manufacturers started sewing the corners. An added benefit of this was that it also makes putting the D bag in the container and the rig look cleaner and you don't have to worry about your lines poking out of the corners. As for Friction staging, that serves a legitimate function.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Honest, I don't make this shit up, I have only been jumping from airplanes for 20 years and I admit, I am still learning new stuff. But I have learned a lot from sitting down and talking with people who have been making gear for many years. Like anything in skydiving, I don't expect everyone to agree on everything, especially riggers and or rig manufacturers. Given that most rig manufacturers offer the wingsuit modifications for no additional charge its an option worth considering if you plan on doing a lot of wingsuting.


As for BASE containers and the difference. Just think about the difference between a base rig and a skydiving rig and how the canopies are packed into the rig. Or better yet, ask yourself why a D bag isn't used on the canopy in BASE.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

First:

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You don't have to believe me, just ask anyone who's been around skydiving for more than a few years and remembers when rig corners were not sewn together or e-mail one of the H/C manufacturers and ask them. I am sure they can explain it a lot better than I can.

Then:

An opinion from a major H/C manufacturer (via Spot) saying exactly the opposite.

Now:

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But I have learned a lot from sitting down and talking with people who have been making gear for many years. Like anything in skydiving, I don't expect everyone to agree on everything, especially riggers and or rig manufacturers.

So which is it? Is it a universal truth that "anyone who's been around skydiving for more than a few years" will know about or any H/C mfr will agree on? Or is it just your personal opinion that maybe certain mfr's (you haven't stated which ones yet) support?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

Am I the only one completely missing the point on that framegrab you just posted? Its a pilotchute at bridle extention, pulling a canopy out.

At no point does the canopy overtake the pilotchute.
Even though the lines are just laid down in the packing tray, they stay there intill pulled out/tight.

An added Dbag (and some more altitude) would have added stowed lines to that one. Making your scenario even more unlikely..

If you want to talk potential issues.
Talk to a local (dutch) rigger who put a packingmat on top of a reserve pilotchute before pulling it (in his loft) and thus concluded the wings of a classic wrapped around the reserve container (which to this day doesnt even work with some of the biggest suits..wrapping the container) caused a (percieved) delay the guy thought he felt in his reserve opening.

its PHANTOM issues..nobody ever experienced it...think long and hard, and everyone can come up with some potetial problem.
But realistic? And all it does is create shit.

One DZO reads what you are saying here, and the next moment Im not allowed onto the plane with my 'wingsuit dangerous' WINGS container?
Brilliant stuff..

So far the riggers you told people to ask, have weighed in with answers that dont really confirm what you're saying.

A lot of stuff (such as heavy hackeyballs with a single attachment points) cause bridle wraps/knots. And have caused reserve pulls, 2 out situations, and even (in base) death.

Going on and on about the cut corners on someones rig, and turning that into a scary thing (for no reality-based reason) seems more important than telling them the actual amount of reserves their type of pilotchute-hackey/ball causes every year.

A proper pilotchute should be a bigger part of a wingsuit mod than the cut corners (or reason to get the type of cut corners on your sponsored rig, and not those on other brands)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

Matt, those that were around back then will remember when corners were not sewn together. As for manufacturers, as I stated, they won't and don't always agree on everything. John Sherman for one, is someone who can speak more on friction staging and provide a good deal of information on this topic. I suggest you or anyone else interested in learning more e-mail him as he can speak in depth on this topic. A response from John to a question that references the reasons for friction staging can be seen here.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

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Matt, those that were around back then will remember when corners were not sewn together. As for manufacturers, as I stated, they won't and don't always agree on everything. John Sherman for one, is someone who can speak more on friction staging and provide a good deal of information on this topic. I suggest you or anyone else interested in learning more e-mail him as he can speak in depth on this topic. A response from John to a question that references the reasons for friction staging can be seen here.

From your link:

I hope everyone realizes, that if the bag does leave the container while the
pilot chute is in your hand, the assembly is defective. The test is this:
While wearing the rig pull the main pin, if the bag falls out of the
container the assembly is defective.

The container must be so designed as to hold the bag in place until positive
pilot chute tension is applied to the bridle, beginning the rotation process
of lifting the bag out of the container.

He is saying that if you are holding the pilot chute in your hand, the bag should not come out of the container. It sounds to me like he is talking about a pullout deployment system, which isn't even remotely on-topic. It's not really possible to tell without seeing what he's replying to.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

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A response from John to a question that references the reasons for friction staging can be seen here.

Now explain to me how that has anything to do with the problems you mention?

He mentions a pin that has been pulled when the pilotchute is IN YOUR HAND. The scenario you describe has a Dbag magically overtaking the pilotchute.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Its a pilotchute at bridle extention, pulling a canopy out.

More specific, its a picture of a base canopy deployment.It goes back to the differences between a skydiving and base deployment and why friction staging isn't an issue.

As for the rest of your post, I have no clue what your point is. Heavy hacks as you stated are a potential issue and people should be aware of potential issues, like dynamic corners, no riser inserts,etc , and make educated decisions on whether or not they want those features on their rig.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

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What can happen is that during the deployment process the D bag can end up above the bridle and pilot chute once the pin is pulled.

I can see a normal horse-shoe situation (thats covered in every single skydiving course worldwide) in the description you linked to.
A pilotchute still in hand, with a pin already pulled out due to relative wind tugging on a big fat bridle (on a normal skydive, where the bridle isnt in a burble of a wingsuit).

But thats not the situation you mention. You are constantly talking about a Dbag overtaking the pilotchute (which is the very thing PULLING IT OUT).

This is just physicaly impossible..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

You wanted to know which manufacturer. As I stated it references friction staging. If you want a full blown explanation specific to friction staging and dynamic corners, e-mail John at jumpshack.com or call him.He can provide you with more information on the subject than I think anyone would want to know.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

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More specific, its a picture of a base canopy deployment.It goes back to the differences between a skydiving and base deployment and why friction staging isn't an issue.

Sound more like one of your famous cryptic "Im saying something without actually saying something" kinda posts.

I might not understand the differences between basegear and skydiving gear as well as you seem to think you do..

But I do know if you (by some force or reason) pull the pins or velcro on a baserig, and you are still holding the pilotchute in your hand/pulling after the shit has come out (CLASSIC HORSE SHOE..SAME AS SKYDIVING..COVERED IN EVERY STANDARD SKYDIVING EDUCATION) you have the same horse-shoe kinda malfunction posibilities as on skydiving gear.

There was a deadly acident with this during a demo with basegear in exactly this way just a few months back.

But thats an out of sequence deployment. Not having the pilotchute catching wind, and the bag (or bagless canopy) leaving first.

Thats still so many miles away from your bag/main 'overtaking' the pilotchute on a normal opening. Thats just NOT possible unless you are jumping a pull-out system, and hanging on to the pilotchute for half a minute longer.

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As for the rest of your post, I have no clue what your point is.

Pointing out the IMPORTANT wingsuit mods and tweaks..and not go on and on about something which is a non-issue..

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and make educated decisions

Then give people known facts, instead of your own fancy theory, which is nothing more than taking a NORMAL HORSESHOE malfunction (with method of pulling and/or pin-tension being the most likely cause) and coming up with some non-reality based reason why cut corners should be causing these...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mccordia 73]

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e-mail John at jumpshack.com or call him.He can provide you with more information on the subject than I think anyone would want to know.

The subject of horse-shoe malfucntions?
Pins being pulled before the pilotchute is released....

NOT your bag climbing/overtaking the pilotchute which pulled the pin out.

If people are hanging on to their pilotchute long enough for the bridle to completely catch wind and pull the Dbag out, or have a closingloop soo loose the container can just open, thats a whole other issue more related to someones poor actions or taking care of his/her gear.

Horseshoe malls have happened to every single type of rig..cut corners or not.

Stop referencing stuff which isnt reference for the subject your making up man

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Then give people known facts, instead of your own fancy theory, which is nothing more than taking a NORMAL HORSESHOE malfunction (with method of pulling and/or pin-tension being the most likely cause) and coming up with some non-reality based reason why cut corners should be causing these...

This is not my theory and I am not talking about a horseshoe mal, I am talking about a potential draw back to dynamic corners vs opened or cut corners. The linked article references the importance of friction staging which is relevant to the original topic.

I am guessing its cold where you are right now

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

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I am guessing its cold where you are right now

Neeh...just 5:00 Am and fresh back from the windtunnel.
But if thats a dig at needing to jump more and post less...mr fulltime jumper..Im only jumping in weekends from small planes and in cold shitty weather at tiny dropzones. Yet still manage to pass you in terms currency with regards to jumpnumbers

Less fantasy malffunctions and more real ones! jump damnit

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?