What is the wingsuit mod for containers?

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I know DSE has mentioned it once or twice about his voodoo. I also saw a wingsuit option on the mirage price list. So the question is, what is it? and what does it do for you?

It's too late for me now because I just got my brand new Vector III but it'd be nice to know for future reference.

[Skwrl 56]

"Open corners" a.k.a., "Cut corners" a.k.a., "Dynamic corners" (someone in marketing was involved with the last name, no doubt).

Basically, the bottom of the container is opened (think sort of like an accordion), so that the dbag comes out straight(er). Either that or it makes the main explode in a fiery ball of doom on deployment. Those who have hung out with me for any length of time know that the latter will happen with mine, I just wanted to be able to say "yeah, I knew that" when it somehow does spontaneously combust.

It can be done as an aftermarket modification to the Vector 3 by a master rigger. I'm having my Vector 3 done next week. I specifically contacted UPT about this to find out if there was any secret (or any special warnings) to it. They said "The only thing [your rigger] needs to do is open the corners up."

So to have open corners, you need to open the corners up. Who knew?

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

When you say open do you mean they don't have that extra little flap that usually tucks around and underneath the bottom of the container? I'm trying to picture what it looks like.

[keithbar 1]

doesn't the mod include a longer pilotchute bridle? does anyone know if their is a recomended length for the bridle? I would guess it may depend on the size of your main. but I'm not sure.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

I know DSE has mentioned it once or twice about his voodoo. I also saw a wingsuit option on the mirage price list. So the question is, what is it? and what does it do for you?

It's too late for me now because I just got my brand new Vector III but it'd be nice to know for future reference.

I have it on my Javelin. Take a look next time you see me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Cool, will do. Thanks.

[Skwrl 56]

That's a different issue.

Right now, I have a long (9 foot, I think) bridle. I don't have the container modification (yet). I know the Flock U instructors either "very strongly recommend" or "require" (forget which) a long bridle. I know they "recommend" the cut corners, but I believe it's considered less critical. I'm sure someone else will chime in on the relative merits of cut corners, but I think most people feel that an extra long bridle is a Good Thing.

I'll let someone else post a pic of the cut corners.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Why are long bridles good? Does it have to do with oscillation from the PC or something similar?

[monkycndo 0]

Quote

Why are long bridles good? Does it have to do with oscillation from the PC or something similar?

The longer bridle allows for the PC to clear the bigger burble created by the wingsuit.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[DSE 3]

Longer bridle clears the burble of a wingsuit more easily, and with the bigger suits of today, it's nice to have. I jumped a standard length bridle wth my Phantom and Blade, never needed anything longer. I noticed a significant increase in hesitation when I started jumping a Mach1 and SM1.
Voodoo's "dynamic corners" (RI calls em' open tray or cut corners) are different than the others. I love em, won't ever go back to anything else. I'm having my Talon FX modded right now.

[The111 0]

Anybody know the standard for measure bridle length? I'm assuming it's from pin to PC attach. What is considered "standard" and what is considered "long"? I think my old rig (V3) had a longer bridle than my current one (Icon), which is still longer than "normal" but shorter than some. I've noticed a bigger hesitation with my SM111 also and it probably wouldn't hurt to get a longer bridle. First I need to measure mine and compare to what others are running.

On topic, in my mind the other mods aren't that important, but the long bridle is a must.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

I think most bridles these days are quite long 'standard'
My first rig was a Vector2, and the bridle wasnt anything longer than 1,5 meters.

With my current bridle length, I could use it to walk the dog while seated on the couch

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[The111 0]

Quote

I think most bridles these days are quite long 'standard'
My first rig was a Vector2, and the bridle wasnt anything longer than 1,5 meters.

With my current bridle length, I could use it to walk the dog while seated on the couch

True, my Icon "standard bridle" is longer than my V3's standard bridle, but not as long as the V3 extended bridle I had.

I didn't mod anything on my Icon, and with the bigger suit the hesitation is definitely noticeable. Especially since I sink out my deployments due to the weight on my head, for less whip on opening. The "sink-out" process just makes the burble worse. Without the cameras I'd just dump in full flight and the burble wouldn't be as much of an issue.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

I thought 7' is standard? 9' is "wingsuit" but I know a couple of guys with 10' bridles, measured from pin to larkshead.

[Butters 0]

Quote

I thought 7' is standard? 9' is "wingsuit" ... measured from pin to larkshead.

You're correct about the lengths. The modifications are longer bridle (from pin to larkshead), dynamic (cut) corners, and packing grommet (on deployment bag) to pin (or BOC).

PS: To the original poster, was this not covered in your first flight course? Regardless, these are all covered in Phoenix-Fly User Manuals and you should be able to deduce why on your own ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[chrisgray 0]

As DSE & Monkey commented the longer bridle helps clear your burble. When I first started flying big suits I was getting nasty PC hesitation and the longer bridle solved that issue.
Although I used to fall out of flight before deployment and that is why the bridle helped. Since then I have found I much prefer full flight deployment and a standard bridle works okay for me now. That brings up the cut/dynamic corners which are nice if you do full flight deployment since the bag leaves at a shallow angle.

My opinion is the longer bridle helps regardless of deployment style where as the cut/dynamic corners only help for full flight deployment. I would add them in that order as needed.

WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

So the question is, what is it? and what does it do for you?

There are several threads on this topic that can provide you with a good deal of back ground info. Some can be found Here for starters.Likewise searching for "cut corners" and "bridle length" in the wingsuit forum will provide you with even more threads.

One thing I will caution against is the "more is better" mentality. 9' is what is considered a wingsuit bridle as measured from pin to PC. Using bridles longer than 9' becomes a safety issue and actually causes problems. If you want specifics, try a search on bridles by Tom A. as he gives a good history lesson on how longer than 9' bridle lengths have been used in the past and the associated safety issues and dangers/fatalities.

Another point of clarification worth mentioning is the difference between cut corners and dynamic corners as the two are different. Simply put, cut corners are where the stitching that holds the vertical and horizontal portions of the bottom of the main container pack tray are picked or opened up but yet still are connected to one another, usually about an inch of stitching remains.

Dynamic corners are commonly seen on BASE rigs and used to be standard on most rigs circa the late 80s. Dynamic corners are where the vertical and horizontal portions of the bottom of the main container pack tray are not sewn to one another at all. The use of dynamic corners is not recommended because it can and has created safety issues related to the proper deployment sequence known as friction staging. Again, another lesson learned the hard way back in the day and why you no longer see it on skydiving rigs today. Below is a post I made on this topic some time back. The full thread can bee seen here. Despite the known risk, some people use dynamic corners and luckily have not had their number come up yet. It's not a question of if but of when and if it wasn't a legitimate issue, we would see dynamic corners standard from skydiving rig manufacturers today. I do not recommend dynamic corners for any type of skydiving.

from the thread titled:rigs with 'open corners', post #35 in the wingsuit forum

Let me clarify something as a very valid point was brought up about friction staging. If you look at the pictures of my containers open corners that I posted and compare them to the pictures PBLA 4024 posted, you will see a distinct difference. While it can be said that both are "open corners", it is obvious that one is more open than the other. The problem with corners that are opened as seen in PBLAs photos is as stated previously by Mick. What can happen is that during the deployment process the D bag can end up above the bridle and pilot chute once the pin is pulled. To test this on the ground, have someone pull your PC and bridle out until the pin pulls. If the D bag falls out of the container as soon as the pin is pulled, you could potentially have the deployment problem mentioned.

As been mentioned, fully open corners was once the norm. In the beginning of ram airs, before the development of the piggy back friction concept, Para-Flite used a bag retainer strap in the main container which was a piece of webbing sewn to the container at it's center. The ends had a gormmet on one end and a rubberband on the other. It wrapped around the bag and a stow was made holding the ends together. The stow was made with the main bridle.The bag was held until the PC had "positive drag". This meant it was out of the burbble and would lift the bag off.

If one intends to open thier corners for Birdman flights make sure that there is still enough corner sewn so that the needed friction is still present. Along with packing the D bag grommet up, these two modifications can aid in a cleaner deployment during wingsuit flights.


From post #9 of the same thread:

There is nothing "frivolous" about closed lower main container corners. The closed lower corners were and are still are an important step in main parachute deployment allowing for proper "staging" of the parachute deployment system. It's called "friction staging". It allows for full pilot chute and bridle inflation/ extraction prior to the deployment bag lift off, thus minimizing deployment problems. Your reserve container is full of friction staging technology. Trust me it's not for looks, it's for methodical/ predictable parachute deploments time after time! Asthetics are purly a by-product of this valuable and thechnicaly proven science. Hope this clears up WHY parachute container corners (upper and lower) are the way they are!

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnskydiver688 0]

This might be a dumb question, but I am assuming that when you say have someone pull the pin and see if the bag falls out immediately you mean while standing? If this is the case I don't see how it affects a deployment when the force is from the top of the tray and not gravity pulling it down "through" the bottom flap.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[LouDiamond 1]

Standing or from the horizontal freefall belly to earth position. If the entire pack tray opens to the point where there is nothing holding the D bag in when the pin is extracted, ie; it is immediately free,which is what happens with dynamic corners, then you have issues as mentioned.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnskydiver688 0]

During a freefall deployment where are forces acting on the bag coming from? Seems to me the bag wants to stay right where it is at. Stuck on your back until the bridle gives it a yank off your back. Up until that point unless your body makes large movements from the time the pin is pulled until that split second later the bridle pulls on the bag wouldn't it be reasonable to think the bag is going to want to stay right where it is at?

Again this is just me trying to wrap my head around the issue.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Seems to me the bag wants to stay right where it is at. Stuck on your back until the bridle gives it a yank off your back.

Thats the point or more specifically, the friction staging created by the main container pack tray even when the pin is pulled. With Dynamic corners that doesn't happen as all the flaps fall or open up as soon as the pin is pulled.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnskydiver688 0]

I understand that but the flaps are not exerting any directional force on the bag because the flaps are moving in the same direction as the bag during freefall. This would lead me to think that the bag wouldn't feel anything when the flaps fell away. I mean if you dropped a bag full of random stuff and then opened all sides of the bag, since everything in the bag and the bag itself is moving at the same velocity with the same direction the contents wouldn't all of sudden fly all over.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Thanks for the in depth explanation.

[Skwrl 56]

DSE -

At the risk of triggering a "...let me tell you why [X] is the best [Y] on the market" discussion..." (I'm looking at you, Peggs ) how are the Voodoo "dynamic corners" different than the others' "open corners"?

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[LouDiamond 1]

Examples of dynamic corners can been seen here, here, and here.

An example of open or cut down corners can be seen Here.


I would not recommend fully opening(dynamic) the corners on the bottom of your container as it can create the issues I mentioned above.Rather I recommend that you open them partially or 3/4 of the way so that there is still a sewn corner(1") on the bottom of the container.

Packing bridle up/grommet to pin and using a 9' bridle are also modifications that have been proven to work effctively at reducing deployment issues.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING