What is the wingsuit mod for containers?

[scottygofast 0]

i like a big hackey... gives you some mass to grab ahold of and throw~

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[QuietStorm 0]

Bottom Line is This:

Have I ever seen a "standard" configuration main parachute container systems FAIL to put a main canopy overhead in a wingsuit when properly deployed? - NO!

Do modifications such as longer bridles, bigger pilot chutes, hard cutaway cable housings on your main risers, "non-elliptical" main canopy design, dynamic corners on the main parachute pack tray, and body flight position at pull time make main canopy deployments under wingsuit more "USER FRIENDLY".....with reduced line twists, malfunctions, and likelyhood of a CHOP? - ABSOLUTELY YES!

Go FLY.....GO HAVE FUN!

[DSE 3]

Rigging Innovations gave me a large hackey, but the inside of it is some sort of foam. It's big, but lightweight. It's part of their wingsuit mod package.

[mccordia 73]

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Bottom Line is This:

Have I ever seen a "standard" configuration main parachute container systems FAIL to put a main canopy overhead in a wingsuit when properly deployed? - NO!

I have seen one or two, but usually those could be resolved by packing slighly different (mostly, the orientation of the Dbag).

'Kaatje' who posts on this forum had exactly that during a wingsuit jump.
She had experienced small hesitations before (always packing grommit2reserve). Even when deploying with her usual slowdown, the slight angle she still had seemed to slighly lock her Dbag slighly.
At one point there wasnt anything coming, and she had to go for her reserve.

After switching to packing her Dbag grommit2pin (standing upright) she didnt experience any hesitations anymore from what I heard.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[JohanW 0]

She hasn't mentioned that to me, and she does sometimes like me to pack for her. Is this recent?

She does have a Mirage G4, according to her profile, ISTR her rig being the one with the bloody split D-bag and the sewn corners but I'm not all that familiar with Mirages. Do they have a square bag (seen sideways) you can pack grommet to pin without problems? Doesn't seem to fit with the split bag; it's split because it fits the container shape that way.

I know my Atom doesn't have a square bag. I have a vague recollection of I think Espen (haven't read from/about him in ages ..) making a custom rotated bag for his Atom; I know I'm not packing my rig grommet to pin because of the bag shape. Well, and because I don't have any problems anyway
(This might be heading towards Gear&Rigging but at least it's wingsuit specific.)

Johan.
I am. I think.

[The111 0]

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I thought 7' is standard? 9' is "wingsuit" but I know a couple of guys with 10' bridles, measured from pin to larkshead.

Wow... I finally got around to measuring the bridle on my Icon and it is 6' pin to PC. Jumping with my SM1, guess that explains those hesitations.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

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Therefore, I will e-mail John Sherman for you and have him explain it in detail. When I receive a reply I will post it here.

Echo... echo... echo...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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Therefore, I will e-mail John Sherman for you and have him explain it in detail. When I receive a reply I will post it here.

Echo... echo... echo...

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From John Sherman:

From the earliest days of the round parachutes after the development of the

deployment devices, sleeves, bags, etc.)we have known that proper sequencing

is necessary to prevent malfunctions. This means that things must happen in

order; Pilot chute out and dragging in clean air, deployment device with

enclosed canopy to follow while allowing the lines to release from their

stow one at a time until the final stows which allow the bag or sleeve to

open releasing the canopy. When all of the above begins to drag the pilot

chute that's "Snatch" [Snatch Force = The acceleration of the mass of the

canopy lines and bag to speed.] Now inflation can begin safely.



When squares first came out the fun began. I can't possibly cover all of the

methods tested here but the single most important devise was a strap of

webbing sewn to the center of the tray of the container which wrapped around

the bag and held closed, retaining the bag, with a loop and grommet stow

locked by the bridle. The container was a conventional back container with

all open corners or in other words it lay flat when open.



I did a hop and pop with a system like this (without the retainer)and had a

very bad burble. I looked to my right and saw my pilot chute below the bag.

The pilot chute had burbled and the bag had floated off my back. The bag was

now dragging more than the pilot chute and the lines were deploying sucking

the pilot chute into them. No fun.



I was now a believer in the necessity to force the correct sequence into the

design. I thought the strap was a less than desirable method 'cause it might

snag something.



About this time I was designing the Racer and as it was a piggy back I had

the advantage of jamming the top of the bag against the bottom of the

reserve, while holding the lines in the bottom corners of the main

container. By packing the bag into the container with the bridle to the top

against the reserve we could hold the bag in the container until the bag had

positive lift on the bridle and rotate the bag out of the container. This

dictated the sequence for years and worked very successfully. The test I

always use to evaluate the safety of a main container is to pull the main

pin while wearing the rig standing vertically. If the main bag falls out the

rig is unsafe. Were I to be a wing suit jumper I would look for an alternate method other than removing the boxing completely . I believe the correct solution would be to maintain some of the boxing.



John Sherman

If anyone would like a more in depth explanation, I thoroughly encourage you to contact John directly.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

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If anyone would like a more in depth explanation, I thoroughly encourage you to contact John directly.

If you want to have an in depth explanation on how the wings of a classic can wrap your rig and keep a reserve canopy inside of a container, I thoroughly encourage you to contact our dutch master rigger and examinator directly.

And I can find a few other people with lots of riggers papers or other cool things on their resume who are more than willing to tell you a load of BS in an effort to sell a book, service or a piece of gear..
But does that make it any more real/true?

That sayd, I also I thoroughly encourage you to actually read what you posted. As the only way a pilotchute (which pulls the pin out) can be overtaken by the lines/Dbag, is by having someone not have proper tension on his pin, and somehow have the drag on his bridle pull the pin out, and initiating deployment before he let go of the pilotchute (simple physics actually).

Which again..is just one of the most basic horse-shoe malfuntions with which cut corners on a rig have nothing to do with.

Just making sure your closing loop is nice and tight does...

Although I do compliment you on your efforts on plugging your sponsor/rig..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

I am making an assumption here, but it sounds like you are unaware of who John Sherman is. He isn't just some rigger, if you put him next to his skydiving contemporaries he would be standing next to Bill Booth, Strong, Galloway, etc.

If you or anyone else chooses not to pay heed to this advise and think you know more about skydiving equipment than the people above, that's your right and decision to make. There is no agenda and I am not trying to plug anyone;it's not like I get royalties from anyone for semi cut corners on containers. So do with the information as you will.

As always, be safe and have fun.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[virgin-burner 1]

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The safest parachutes are made by Strong Enterprises -- they are perfectly safe and well designed by Sed Ttrong. A Strong parachute is well made, designed to last and will never be subject to a safety recall ever. A skydiver is much less likely to die from gear design flaws and deterioration if they use a parachute made by Strong.

Unsafe gear is made by Sun Path, such as their Javelin "death trap" Odyssey. Micron, Wings, Icon, Velocity and Mirage parachute gear is also considered to be unsafe and much more likely to kill the jumper without even swooping.

taken from here..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mccordia 73]

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I am making an assumption here

yea...that was pretty clear right from the start..

Im pretty aware who John Sherman is, having heard several big names (in both wingsuit flying and regular skydiving) mention him in less than positive light...Claims such as "i invented the closing pin" and such...thats the guy right?

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If you or anyone else chooses not to pay heed to this advise and think you know more about skydiving equipment than the people above,

Trying to link Bill Booth, Ted Strong etc. to the statements John Sherman makes is quite low. And when it comes to real life situations, we have more malfunctions/cutaways/no mains due to baglock (the main/deployment bag getting caught in the tray) and the low-drag on the pilotchute during opening not pulling the Dbag out, than Ive heard ANY case of physics not working as they should, creating the campos-mall..

Again..as you always have an awesome way of typing a lot, throwing names around, but skimming around an actual answer; Please EXPLAIN how a pin can be removed from a container by a pilotchute at full bridle extention, then have the bag and linestows removed by the same drag/force of that pilotchute.
And THEN having the pilotchute make a 8 meter leap back into your burble. Defying 100 mph (or more) relative wind working against it..

John Sherman:
The pilot chute had burbled and the bag had floated off my back.

So what he is saying, is that a pilotchute which went straight into his burble, somehow did manage to pull the pin, and open his container and drag the bag out?
Sounds more like someone who needs to ask for a pin-check before boarding a plane, to make sure its nice and tight, and not use a 20 cm wide reserve-bridle which has soo much drag it could pull out a canopy if needed (Next to doing a proper throw).

The cut corners on skydiving gear, are nothing more than a (be it often not needed) modification, making its function similar to that of a basejumping rig (on which the deploying canopy and lines should have a conciderable larger chance at overtaking the pilot, in terms of the drag they have, compared to a normal D-Bag).

You are trying to make a normal horse-shoe malfunction not AT ALL related to open corners into something completely different..

Im sure it'll makes a great fiction chapter for your new book though

Do with this information what you will...that's your right and decision to make

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

Hey, apparently you know it all so there is no reason for me to continue with this line of discussion. Besides, you know what they say about arguing on the internet.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

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Hey, apparently you know it all so there is no reason for me to continue with this line of discussion.

If I had put that childish answer in my above post, instead of trying to have an intelligent discussion with you that would also effectivly show my inability to talk about said subject more, beyond the level of quoting other peoples writing and throwing around names...

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Besides, you know what they say about arguing on the internet.

That Its like fluctuating jumpnumbers in peoples DZ.com profile...you never know how many of those they really made..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[The111 0]

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Hey, apparently you know it all so there is no reason for me to continue with this line of discussion.

He doesn't know it all, he's asked you the same question I have several times and you haven't answered it, nor has your expert.

Please EXPLAIN how a pin can be removed from a container by a pilotchute at full bridle extention, then have the bag and linestows removed by the same drag/force of that pilotchute.
And THEN having the pilotchute make a 8 meter leap back into your burble. Defying 100 mph (or more) relative wind working against it..

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Besides, you know what they say about arguing on the internet.

That you've been part of it for this whole thread so it would be ironic for you to call it retarded?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[virgin-burner 1]

hey now guys, scott wrote a book on skydiving, i'm sure he knows his onions better than u wannabe's.. kids these days, no respect for the elderly..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[sdctlc 0]

Earlier skydiving gear often had the container set up as a pull out compared to a BOC or ROL common today (BOC with WS obviously). It is still around, though I don't see it as much. Most common argument for it I sae is with a freeflyer not wanting to have any chance of the PC coming out causing a premature opening while vertical. It is not a suggested set up with WS in part because you can pull the pin and then if followed by a weak toss can have an open container and a PC in the burble. I guess this could lead to the bag leading the PC and "Ball O Shit" opening.

With a BOC or a ROL sure you can have the pin come out if it is knocked in the plane or on a collision if it is too loose (though even a tight pin can get knocked out) which would potentially lead to a container open and PC still stowed, i.e. horseshoe.

I am not saying that the BOC or ROL set up cant lead to the noted issue that Scott is talking about regarding John statement, but I would be curious if John was referring to a Pull Out system with which I can see the issue being more of a potential issue.

Scott C.

Edited to add: I forgot to mention the Pull out in relation to "Open" sides which was also refereed to in John's post. It would make it worse as a closed main tray will hold the bag longer giving the PC a chance to "go" compared to the open style which obviously once the pin is pulled there is now no tension fromthe tray on the bag. This open style is the wingsuit mod that I don't see as good in combination with a Pull out but don't have as much a problem with a BOC set up and cut corners.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[robibird 2]

Pilot chute has his surface and weight.
Bag has his surface and weight.
Human body or plane or glider is moving through the air w certain speed.
To ensure proper order in opening of the parachute it is essential to have the proper balance between this two component in relation to the speed.
Now, if there is a case like horseshoe were the PC got caught by the body or part of equipment, floating bridle can cause the opening of the container and as the consequence of that , improper opening can start when bag fall out of the container. than , of course the bag is faster, as it is the only part which is free to move. All this is well known and all this are the worst scenario parachutist or BASE jumper can get.

On the other hand, the case were the bag would be faster than PC is possible, but just in such case , were process started correctly and than PC goes back to jumpers back and get caught. Is this possible?! Well, it is , 1: 1000 000 times..mainly if PC explode and can not ensure the drag force....
In situations were all works fine and ''by the book'' this situation is impossible! If that would be possible in high rate as here Lou trying to suggest , than we would be way more often at the cemetery for our buddies, and farewell parties. Parachuting would be rather stunt than a sport.

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

[DSE 3]

You can see John Sherman here
and see Bill Booth here, and Ted Strong here...
Decide for yourself if John Sherman is a contemporary of these two very humble, gracious and intelligent men.
I must be misreading Sherman's commentary on wingsuit mods, as I took it more to be a commentary on old-style rigs that he was trying to design/test. The wingsuit mod isn't entirely open, it still has some support and structure on the sides and definitely on the top.
Common sense would seem to dictate that a pilot chute isn't going to do a "U" turn and return to the burble once the extraction process has begun?
If it were a baglock, the weight of the bag rolling out of the now-open container is going to adjust the point of angle for the PC to most likely put it out of the burble anyway, wouldn't it?

[LouDiamond 1]

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If that would be possible in high rate as here Lou trying to suggest , than we would be way more often at the cemetery for our buddies, and farewell parties. Parachuting would be rather stunt than a sport.

Thats just it, I am NOT, nor have I said that it can or does occur at a high rate, but that the possibility exists and therefore is a consideration to take into account.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

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If that would be possible in high rate as here Lou trying to suggest , than we would be way more often at the cemetery for our buddies, and farewell parties. Parachuting would be rather stunt than a sport.

Thats just it, I am NOT, nor have I said that it can or does occur at a high rate, but that the possibility exists and therefore is a consideration to take into account.

Robi says the only way it's possible is if your PC explodes. Where have you said that?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

And the chance of a PC exploding is much higher when there is a significant 'snag' as it inflates due to the bag-friction, so even there the cut corners would actually bennefit the opening more than they'd hinder it..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[sdctlc 0]

WOW, some jumping on Scott here. I think he was pointing out that there is a chance based on his conversations with John. Since there is a chance and Robi pointed out a possibility, all be it very small, Scott is safe in pointing it out, though I think it is more towards a situation that I noted. I pointed out that a pull out system, more common with the time that John Sherman noted in a letter Scott posted, was in my opinion a more likely contributing factor to that determination he noted. Scott is right in that there is a "chance" and he has made an obvious choice in terms of his gear, good for him. I use a wingsuit mod on my gear and a BOC and it is my choice.

I think a bigger issue for today's gear can be seen with stuffing a parachute slightly big for a container into it for wingsuiting. Wanting a more docel canopy but not wanting another container. Guilty in that I sold my 2 wingsuit containers and switched to my smaller non-mod newer container and stuffed a 150 into it. Being built as a moderately tight fit for a 135, the tray with a 150 was tight. I loosened the closing loop but still with every pitch I could expect a good hesitation of as long as 5 to 6 seconds before I felt the bag lift off... I quickly (4 jumps) got sick of this and grabbed a razor blade, Cut the corners down in the packing area and then bartacked the bottom inch of the lower corners in the loft. It improved the openings but still I had hesitations. When I finally bothered to put the right size canopy into the container all the issues went away and the hesitation problem is no more. I could see the PC trailing behind me and dancing around until I accelerated fast enough to increase the pull above the pin and container force. All that said, I could potentially see the PC getting brought back to me in the burble (which can happen) just as the pin released. Given that possibility, if the timing was just right and the stars aligned just so, the bag and the PC could tangle..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[birdynamnam 28]

Wow long thread.

Having a beautiful looking "Sunpath deathtrap" myself :-D

So, because of that, I have to do as Robi says; go vertical as much as possible, then throw. If I go horizontal: hesitation almost every time. I have a 10" bridle, a brand new slightly larger PC. I even tried to swing a dead chicken over my head before throwing the PC. Still need to go quite a bit vertical, because of the much boxed design of the rig.

Cut corners is a no-go on a Javelin imo and also my riggers opinion.

And.. Then came the time to have the reserve repacked. I positioned the "deathtrap" on the floor and pulled the ripcord. The reserve PC emerged from beneath the flaps, but it came to rest instantly and looked like a wedding night c... as it stood there upright on top of the container (yes a packing error). Tired of having to worry about f...... PC's that don't or can't do their f...... job... At that moment I was wondering: "is this new rig I just bought really a deathtrap?"



I agree with what Campos writes reg. having some minimum friction from the "box" ensuring a staged sequence. That comes from experience! Don't need to debate that.

But then again: too much friction can hurt ya

[Butters 0]

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Cut corners is a no-go on a Javelin imo and also my riggers opinion.

I have a Sun Path Javelin Odyssey with dynamic corners ... why is it a no-go in your opinion?

Edit: Or are you only referring to cut corners?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch