kallend 1,623
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DSE 3
QuoteIn reading this thread I hear some of the comments echoing some of the differences in debriefing style I noticed in Europe compared to the US. We are an international flock but depending on where we are from may be use to analysing things in different ways, none of which are meant to be negative. The more open we are to everyone's thoughts and input the more we will learn and grow. We all fly in the same sky.
Curiously enough, I wondered in a PM with someone earlier today, whether this might be a cultural gap issue, how we're looking at this.
But to stick to the facts as best I know them to be (I'm not an organizer, just the guy that sucked in all the video and a lot of the stills)....
Linda Dee won't allow her photos to be carte blanche published.
Nick Stern has released what few he's freely releasing.
Dunno about Scotty's feelings, I was told not to publish anything without specific permission and he's flying now...
I only have a few of OB's pix, but my understanding is he's keeping his for private sale.
Norman Kent won't allow any of his to be published, period.
I haven't spoken to Matt, and none of his photos were transferred to the master system which I kept exclusively in my possession until late last night/early this morning. Scott Campos' event was a bigger priority for me than worrying about asking the photogs for permission to post their work.
There are several photos that from what I saw, fit the criteria, but I never saw them laid under the grid. That was done in another room on another computer by the captains.
Although I honestly don't know anything about what is being looked at, done with, measured in the photos, I suspect we can all agree that the images will undergo incredible scrutiny, so I'd imagine that the organizers want to be sure they have crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's before releasing it to the general public.
To reiterate my point to James earlier, questioning the measurement of a formation using a tool that effectively still doesn't exist, is valid and expected, IMO. This was an experiment. I don't know what hypothesis (if any) can be drawn from it. What I do know, is that based on several comments last night coupled with PM's, is that the almost immediate demand for evidence and the way it has been presented as a challenge to the validity of the event, coupled with the pre-event "authority agency" banter and bullshit equally appears to be a challenge of the skills and integrity of those that participated. I'm sure that's not really the case, but it appears that way to more than a few people.
It was a grand event. Nothing like it has before been attempted nor achieved. FAI, USPA, Guiness not withstanding, everyone from the top to the bottom worked very, very hard to achieve what many said could not be done. Until the tight 16 ways recently performed, who has ever seen anything this slot-specific, this symmetrical in a large formation before?
Would it be FAI-acceptable? Probably not. Because no unit of accurate, verifiable measurement currently exists. Apparently there are a few skydivers out there that claim to know the secret of how to measure this and gain FAI acceptance. If that's so, I sure wish they'd share it if having FAI-endorsement is that important to the community.
My parting shot is that:
A-it seems everyone is working towards the same goal, but working against each other so they can have personal credit for the action.
B-I gained a lot of knowledge on this event. Far more than I expected to learn. Between the friendships fostered, the jumps, and the observation of the organization...I'm a far richer person for it.
The111 0
QuoteThere are several photos that from what I saw, fit the criteria, but I never saw them laid under the grid.
I took an average of 80 photos per jump... much more than I usually do, just for the sole purpose of trying to capture that magical moment if it did all line up. I spent about 6 hours yesterday looking through all my photos and the best ones are in my web galleries and have been submitted for publication. I did not see any that looked like they would work with the grid (distortion or not, there were bigger issues). This is not meant to be disparaging to the flyers at all, as I agree with everything else you said, and to be brutally honest this formation came out MUCH, MUCH better than I could have ever expected. I am incredibly impressed at the flying and don't give a fuck about the grid, but if asked, I'd say that I did not see evidence in my photos of a "grid completion." If my average of one photo per second was not enough to capture the magic moment when it did happen, then I truly hope that somebody else did. It won't impress me any more than I already am though... which is VERY impressed with how well everyone flew.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
The111 0
QuoteThere are mathematical techniques for constructing 3d representations from 2-d pictures (CAT scans are the best known example). As it happens, it is an area in which I've done a lot of research and written a bunch of software.
How about constructing a 3D picture from one 2D image? I'm pretty sure that's not really feasible (without a lot of other known data about the photographed objects).
CAT scans aren't constructed by taking one simple photograph of the object being examined...
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
normiss 622
I don't want this to be a pissing contest either, and I am in awe and admiration of what was accomplished...however when it was originally posted as "This is the official world record wingsuit flock
Our goal is to fly a tight 71 way flock" means an official world record tight flock isn't that the goal?
Yes, a world record flock was obviously flown, but if the criteria was originally stated as a formation to fit said grid, it either did or did not.
As you say, moving the goal posts after the fact is a step backwards IMO anyway.
Not that's worth anything I'm sure.
We are in need of a way to measure a flock to be sure.
We do seem to have a professor around here somewhere with a bit of physics and aerospace experience....one would think that should be very helpful. 
Again, whatever anyone wants to call what "this" "was" - it WAS impressive....and a first!
- if having FAI-endorsement is that important to the community.
For me it is just not!
The reward for FAI endorsement would have been to take my kids to school and mow my lawn the next morning. I wasn't there at 6AM wet, dark 30, for any governing bodies, newspaper articles or 29 second TV clip.
I was there to support the cool dude on my left, the bitchen chick on my right and the line of flockers behind me with serious focused smiles on their faces flying on my line. All seeing if we could do what we could do. The reward for that , besides a hella amount of high fives and free flowing tequila shots (ouch), priceless!
Quote
I was there to support the cool dude on my left, the bitchen chick on my right and the line of flockers behind me with serious focused smiles on their faces flying on my line. All seeing if we could do what we could do. The reward for that , besides a hella amount of high fives and free flowing tequila shots (ouch), priceless!
You don't know how hard it is for me to do this, but I actually agree with you Glen.
I think we have set a bench mark for ever improving flock formations to come. Hopefully in the near future.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.
You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity
You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity
QuoteAs Zeemax pointed out, I don't think lens distortion is that big of an issue in judging the photos seen to date where there are obvious gaps in the formation.
For future attempts this should be addressed though.
Agreed from the photos provided to discribe the distortion issue. However, the ones provided are not indicative of the final spacing near the end of the dive for more than 6 - 8 of the dives Monday - Wednesday. We debriefed each jump with video and pics. There were half a dozen jumps where all flyers were in formation, with 3 - 5 flyers 1/2 to a full body's width/length out of slot.
Stay tuned for many more photos that will demonstrate much more slot perfect spacing over the last 3 days of jumps.
WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com
lurch 0
"The reward for FAI endorsement would have been to take my kids to school and mow my lawn the next morning. I wasn't there at 6AM wet, dark 30, for any governing bodies, newspaper articles or 29 second TV clip.
I was there to support the cool dude on my left, the bitchen chick on my right and the line of flockers behind me with serious focused smiles on their faces flying on my line. All seeing if we could do what we could do."
At the risk of sounding repetitive... Fuck, YEAH!!!!
Anyone else think this sucked? Anyone?
(Crickets chirping.....)
-B
I was there to support the cool dude on my left, the bitchen chick on my right and the line of flockers behind me with serious focused smiles on their faces flying on my line. All seeing if we could do what we could do."
At the risk of sounding repetitive... Fuck, YEAH!!!!
Anyone else think this sucked? Anyone?
(Crickets chirping.....)
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.
QuoteAlso did something similar to explain what I ment...
Basically, place an X x X sized box over each flyer (IMPORTANT: just a box in this example).
Then look for overlap between every flyer around him. If every flyer has overlap..means they're all close enough.
Then add lines through the formation, and see if every box stays within the lines set for symetry across each row..
*edit* this time with attachment
If nothing else, the event has prompted the very debate that will help us move things forward in defining and refining our methods. A natural and valuable evolution. In addition, it is only through trial and error the best of the ideas will be validated or not. ----- regardless, Elsinore was a great leap forward on several fronts. ---- Well done to all invovle, I greatly enjoyed the entire event.
WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com
Anyone else think this sucked? Anyone?
(Crickets chirping.....)
-B
Well I do have minor complaint about the coffee, nothing major mind you. Just food for thought for the next oh dark 30 gathering.
I was really worried when I saw Hamo working on the perculator heating element with hand tools in the tool shed
. And they way it was plugged into that over full power strip gave me the heebie-jeebies. I don't want to see S'nore do anymore burning.
Quotethe event has prompted the very debate that will help us move things forward in defining and refining our methods.
And hopefully convinced some of the skeptics that a flock of this size can remain SAFE.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteThere are mathematical techniques for constructing 3d representations from 2-d pictures (CAT scans are the best known example). As it happens, it is an area in which I've done a lot of research and written a bunch of software.
How about constructing a 3D picture from one 2D image? I'm pretty sure that's not really feasible (without a lot of other known data about the photographed objects).
CAT scans aren't constructed by taking one simple photograph of the object being examined...
Correct - but didn't you have multiple views? There wasn't only one cameradude, right? With 3 different views we could construct a good 3-d image, and every additional view gives a more accurate analysis. The views don't have to be from any special direction, just so long as we know where they are from.
Now, we WOULD need an accurate time stamp in order to do it, but that wouldn't be hard to arrange.
It would make a neat student project for engineering seniors, but I'd need some lead time in order to set it up.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,623
Quote"The reward for FAI endorsement would have been to take my kids to school and mow my lawn the next morning. I wasn't there at 6AM wet, dark 30, for any governing bodies, newspaper articles or 29 second TV clip.
I was there to support the cool dude on my left, the bitchen chick on my right and the line of flockers behind me with serious focused smiles on their faces flying on my line. All seeing if we could do what we could do."
-B
That's the right attitude.
I missed this event due to work and $$, but I've been on several "world record" RW big ways (biggest sequential, biggest POPS, biggest SOS) and none of them were recognized by the FAI - so what! We still did it and we have the tee shirts to prove it!
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Cari 0
Less smartypants talk. More pictures.
Costyn 0
QuoteLinda Dee won't allow her photos to be carte blanche published.
Nick Stern has released what few he's freely releasing.
Dunno about Scotty's feelings, I was told not to publish anything without specific permission and he's flying now...
I only have a few of OB's pix, but my understanding is he's keeping his for private sale.
Norman Kent won't allow any of his to be published, period.
I haven't spoken to Matt, and none of his photos were transferred to the master system which I kept exclusively in my possession until late last night/early this morning. Scott Campos' event was a bigger priority for me than worrying about asking the photogs for permission to post their work.
Spot, Matt, and other guys in the know: I have a question about the work the photographers do; please do not see this as an attack on anybody, I'm just curious as to how this works.
Weren't the camera slots paid for by the organization? That is to say, from the registration money? So isn't it so that the camera people were "hired" by the organization to take pictures of the flock, and so the pics should be owned by the organization and not the photographers themselves? Or are pics always owned by the photographers and only "licensed" out to magazines to print them etc?
I understand of course that the ground shots by Nick and Linda are a different thing altogether.
I too had mixed feelings about the anouncement that we'd "done it". I was very curious to know what exactly we'd done, because up 'till wednesday afternoon we'd been doing the same thing for 3 days, with gradual improvement as we got more jumps in but nothing that was clearly "it". I very much wanted to (and still do want to) see the actual picture the organization considered "it". I mean, I understand that pics need to be sold to magazines and such, but a low resolution pic or even displaying the picture in question on the debriefing projector surely could've been done? Surely we didn't get everybody in their 3x3 box, which was way too hard for a formation of this size, but what exactly did we achieve then?
That said, I had a really great time even though it was exhausting and really hard work. Flying that formation was absolutely epic! I really liked meeting many of the dz.com regulars in person, that was very cool!
Cheers,
Costyn.
ps Where can I change my avatar picture here on dz.com's forums?? I'm a pretty computer savvy guy, but I can't find this option anywhere in my 'Edit Profile' page, nor anywhere else really.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News
cpoxon 0
QuoteCorrect - but didn't you have multiple views? There wasn't only one cameradude, right? With 3 different views we could construct a good 3-d image, and every additional view gives a more accurate analysis. The views don't have to be from any special direction, just so long as we know where they are from.
Now, we WOULD need an accurate time stamp in order to do it, but that wouldn't be hard to arrange.
How accurate a time stamp? Would 1 second be enough?
I just looked on my 350d and through the on-board control the time can only bet set to the minute. I don't know if it goes anymore granular than that. Looking in the EXIF data, it is recorded to the minute level as well. I don't know if the camera can be altered via computer interface or if better/later models record time to the second.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live
mccordia 73
QuoteHow about constructing a 3D picture from one 2D image? I'm pretty sure that's not really feasible (without a lot of other known data about the photographed objects)
If I can get a good res. picture, information on the lens used, and information about every flyers width (hand to hand while spreading wings), I can do a 3D overlay, use correctly sized 3D models of each person, overlayed on the picture, and then correct for size differences by moving them up or down the Z-axis (will need some side-ref to determine which way each flyer went) and then get a rough 3D model of the flock, which should be accurate in terms of position down to +- 30 cm for each flyer.
Having multiple pics with the exact time-stamp from different angles will only increase accuracy of the 3D model.
The second step would be everybody donating me some cash to be able to pay my rent, as this would probably cost me a week to do
and..ehm...but...errrr......WHYYYYYYYYY!?
If I may quote some simple facts:
cool
- This is the most awesome bigway ever flown in wingsuits!
- This is the biggest properly organised dive ever done in wingsuits!
- The accuracy and skill with which everybody has flown here are past! anything ever done in organised bigways in wingsuits!
- The amount of planning and execution if the best of its kind ever attempted!
- Its the biggest international effort in wingsuits ever!
- Everyone who was there wishes he was still there, everyone who wasnt, wished he had gone.
- The results passed everyone expectations by far!
- feel free to ad...
you wont like this one
- EACH record ever done in a wingsuit (besides Adrian Nicholas' distance/time one) has been an UNOFFICIAL one. DEAL WITH IT!
Just say this out loud.
WITH 71 PEOPLE WE FLEW THE BIGGEST, MOST BAD-ASS, WELL ORGANISED AND CLOSE TO PERFECT WINGSUIT FLOCK EVER!
Does that line REAAALLY need to have that one more word named 'official' in there? Shame..as it would be the only word thats not true..
- Just because there is no official record, doesnt mean this un-official one automaticly is an official one.
EVERY record is an UNOFFICIAL one. Who cares?
The event is already past awesome. WHY would you argue on such a stupid little word.
what happened
- Due to the organisers wish to ad the word OFFICIAL to the roster..a whole sub-discussion on validation started. Which is a shame. As this event didnt need that.
- That sparked a claim for a certain accuracy, which didnt prove feasable..who cares.
- a lot of things (the results of this one, and the non-emotional look at what rates a formation 'official') got mixed up, and thrown into this mudslinging ego-bruising yes/no game.
That was never what this was about. Forget the word official and rating claims, and be happy with what you got (again, read my 'cool' points)
- For all we know we'll never have an 'official'
validation. And though fun to think off one (even if its for our own 'internal' use only), keep that whole discussion away from this thread. It wasnt official, never will be. But it IS all of the things quoted above.
Keep this baby as it is...cheer..kiss..hug..hang the picture on your wall, and remember this for the awesome flying and results.
And dont go into the (by now) personal attacks on people and their reasons to cheer on your results, but have sceptisism on the validation/official part. Its such anger on such a small word which just ISNT PART of this whole event.
Some of the critisism (be it constructive or negative) beforehand stems from some scary/negative experiences a lot of people have had on previous bigways. Though some words may have been harsh, ignore that and try and focus on why those words where sayd.
Because they cared and worried about safety etc.
And this event gladly showed a lot those worries about planning, breakoff, safety where not valid.
Be proud of what you did, but also be a FRIEND and thank that person for having the guts to (even if you didnt like the way he or she did it) tell you what worried him.
And dont be like a sour ex. who keeps bitching about things sayd in the past.
Its the pictures, experience and great step forward in organised wingsuit formations that counts. Again..this is an awesome 71 way flock!
If people can put the word 'official' to rest, and just focus on being happy with this one, and look ahead to the next cool event and how to improve in terms of flying/planning and formation size.
Then we can have a whole seperate discussion on how we may come up with some way of validating a formation.
But for this one...skip it...
As one awesome wingsuit team from the Lowlands always says..
Dont forget to smile..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
mccordia 73
ps Where can I change my avatar picture here on dz.com's forums?? I'm a pretty computer savvy guy, but I can't find this option anywhere in my 'Edit Profile' page, nor anywhere else really.
Click> My profile> Your avatar pic is on the top left. Under the picture Click> Edit Picture
I envied your exploits dude...good to have you back behind a PC (oh..scuzzz me..MAC) where you're not making me so damn jealous every second of my working day
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
Costyn 0
QuoteWITH 71 PEOPLE WE FLEW THE BIGGEST, MOST BAD-ASS, WELL ORGANISED AND CLOSE TO PERFECT WINGSUIT FLOCK EVER!
We? I don't remember seeing you there.
QuoteIf people can put the word 'official' to rest, and just focus on being happy with this one, and look ahead to the next cool event and how to improve in terms of flying/planning and formation size.
Well said Jarno.
And thanks to Jarno and Andrea I now have a new profile pic.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News
If I may quote some simple facts:
cool
- This is the most awesome bigway ever flown in wingsuits!
- This is the biggest properly organised dive ever done in wingsuits!
- The accuracy and skill with which everybody has flown here are past! anything ever done in organised bigways in wingsuits!
- The amount of planning and execution if the best of its kind ever attempted!
- Its the biggest international effort in wingsuits ever!
- Everyone who was there wishes he was still there, everyone who wasnt, wished he had gone.
- The results passed everyone expectations by far!
- feel free to ad...
cool
- This is the most awesome bigway ever flown in wingsuits!
- This is the biggest properly organised dive ever done in wingsuits!
- The accuracy and skill with which everybody has flown here are past! anything ever done in organised bigways in wingsuits!
- The amount of planning and execution if the best of its kind ever attempted!
- Its the biggest international effort in wingsuits ever!
- Everyone who was there wishes he was still there, everyone who wasnt, wished he had gone.
- The results passed everyone expectations by far!
- feel free to ad...
Quote: it was the biggest display of post break off and canopy discipline demonstrated for the size of the group. At least that I'd ever seen. I'm sure some with big way experience would agree.
I believe ALL the comments from everyone I have been reading here for the last few days are sincere from their perspective and their level of emotional attachment or objective detachment to "the results" of what happenned in Elsinore.
A specific official goal "was" indeed stated, and it will "be interesting" to see if that specific objective goal "was" attained,...but that's all it will be : nothing any more than "interesting".
For those who were there, that mere "interest" will always be dwarfed by their thrill and sense of pride in that they were prudently trying something completely new and knowingly risky, they worked as a team with personal focus, and they experienced the pride of individual effort and/or accomplishment, comraderie and just the "feeling" of being a part of something totally awesome while being near and engaged with to so many skilled, decent , crazy, and happy men and women.
Now to send this thread off into a whole different direction,... let me say that last week I was allowed to experience and witness for just a short time what Matt got to see over and over again from his higher position above and behind the entire formation.
On the very last jump on Wednesday, the then-largest slot specific wingsuit formation ever attempted WAS FLOWN WITH "73" FLYERS and the photogtographers departing 4 Otters flown by incredibly skillful pilots and into the unarguably "world record , largest-ever aerial get-well-card" for a guy and friend named Rick who like all the participants , really wanted and sacrified alot to be there, worked hard to qualify to be there, traveled the US and to Europe to perfect his skills so he could be there,.....but was then denied that opportunity by the random chaos of medical hassels. Every day, Rick was checking on the group and he was as emotionally attached last week to what was happening as anyone there was.
Rick was told what we were doing by phone as we loaded into the Otters and he text messaged to friends in two of the aircraft his thanks for what we were about to do as we climbed up to offer him our sunset flight energy and our best wishes that he would keep getting better and fly his wingsuit into the next big way .
As a somewhat slow, careful, and shoulder crippled ( read the last 5 as "less-skilled" ) flocking diver and coming from the third aircraft into the middle of a then "well formed" 72 person formation with smoke at both sides, I was mostly concerned with just getting to the formation, thinking a bit about Rick and also thinking (as I'm sure it is with each of us on every jump),..."to be safe and not hurt anyone else or myself" . As I leveled out from my dive above and well behind the formation,.....I saw the most beautiful, most awesome and most spectacular sight in the sky I have ever seen since I was lucky enough to see the northern lights over Greenland from the cockpit of a Gulfstream IV at FL470 fifteen years back.
Official? a Record? Frankly my friends, I don't give a damn! [
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.
mccordia 73
Well sayd...
Cheers from "The Lone Dutchman...." who watched this all from his office-seat, and via WiFi on his laptop while doing small jumps from a C206..
OFFICIALY* amazed, jealous and applauding everyone involved
*recognized by the FlyLikeBrick foundation of everlasting smile
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
You'll need to try harder than that.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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