unclecharlie95 3 #76 November 17, 2008 and shall we have a vote after every big way attempt to see if "we did it or not?"BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hagen 0 #77 November 17, 2008 once we elaborate some official rules - instead of 'he said that there would be 3 meters', - once such events are judged by independent judges, and everything, I think the vote will be not necessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #78 November 17, 2008 Quote once such events are judged by independent judges, and everything, I think the vote will be not necessary You said it! woo hoo!!BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hagen 0 #79 November 17, 2008 yes! but while we're chatting here, there are people who do something in the discussed direction. for example, people who made the record - maybe not perfect one but one never made before Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #80 November 17, 2008 Thats right, I never did anything in this direction...BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #81 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteFrom what he describes it gives me doubts whether all the flyers were in their 3m box. (the definition for the complete formation stated before the attempt) I have my doubts that any overhead shot can demonstrate all flyers in their boxes as well. DGPS?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #82 November 17, 2008 http://www.amsa.gov.au/shipping_safety/Navigation_Safety/Differential_Global_Postitioning_System/DGPS_Fact_Sheet.asp That would be very worth while exploring! There would be measurement errors to take into account but this would in theory provide an analytical method to judge the formation.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dzjnky 0 #83 November 17, 2008 QuoteThere would be measurement errors to take into account but this would in theory provide an analytical method to judge the formation. Aside from the cost of equipping everyone with DGPS receivers, the article you pointed to states that "Monitoring of AMSA's operational stations indicates that accuracies of 2-4 metres can be expected from a typical maritime DGPS receiver." Thus, the measurement error is roughly equal to the separations that we are trying to measure, at least on the Elsinore attempts... So, interesting idea, but I question the practicality of this particular approach - tough to get meaningful results when the measurement error is approximately the same size as what you are trying to measure... Keep the ideas coming, though - we will find the right combination of ideas at some point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #84 November 17, 2008 Simple... we wait until 2013 for this puppy to be working, then strap a receiver to each participant... Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #85 November 17, 2008 Lower your guns! An optimistic long term view is needed. The article is from July '07. So a little more research might be a good idea. GPS manufacturers are usually keen to promote their products (i.e. Garmin in Russia provided free GPS for the comp)BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #86 November 17, 2008 QuoteAn optimistic long term view is needed. The article is from July '07. So a little more research might be a good idea. Good, old optical way still working, we don't need any gadget for judge the formation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #87 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote In one or 2 of the photos I've seen everybody is relatively close to the slot they are supposed to be in, no one is in anothers "slot". "Almost" ? The event organizers set the criteria for success before the event - the jumps were performed with the objective to satisfy said criteria. The achievement of said goal becomes digital. That is how it works for all the other skydiving big ways (regardless of the fact whether they dock or not). Declare exactly what you intend to do and then prove that you did it. 399 doesn't cut it on 400 way attempt. Emotional attachment to a record attempt is understandable due to the massive investment in terms of time, money, risk and energy but to do so also makes us ALL lose credibility. The Emperor's New Clothes.. The rules of the FAI have changed so much that now a team can use a frame grab of video (1/30 of a second) to demonstrate grips taken. Even then, you have people arguing about whether it's actually a grip or just a "touch." Saw it happen only yesterday....and at Nationals a couple weeks ago Quote If there had been an independent judge on the DZ what would their decision have been? What makes you believe there wasn't? No matter WHAT one does or how hard one tries to do, achieves, or appreciates, there will always be an someone there to say that it wasn't done to satisfaction, was Photoshopped, cheated, rules bent, favored, whatever. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about wingsuiting or Whack a Mole world records...someone will always question it. The level of ego and empty arrogance in this sport makes Hollywood look like kindergarten. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #88 November 17, 2008 Quote QuoteIf there had been an independent judge on the DZ what would their decision have been? What makes you believe there wasn't? Then please tell us who it was?! What was the evidence they used to judge the record complete and can this evidence be put online?BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #89 November 17, 2008 I didn't say there was or wasn't a judge at the event, but as (by your own argument) there is no judging nor governing body, it wouldn't matter if the judge was the local mechanic or Director at USPA, so what difference does/would it make? My question is, "what makes you believe there wasn't an independent person judging the formation?" Seems you demand an argument regardless, as you have since the event was announced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #90 November 17, 2008 I have a question. Has anyone defined what a wingsuit is?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #91 November 17, 2008 Why - why!? Because IMO if there had been an independent judge at the event we wouldn't be having this discussion. I see how you are trying to turn the thread as an attack on me. Lets stick to facts. I have spent a lot of time on the idea of big way formations, writing articles and also presenting to the FAI-IPC. What is my motivation? To make you all mad? To say what you did or didn't do? NO - I want to see progression in this discipline that I have been passionate about for the last 9 years of my life.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #92 November 17, 2008 yes, i have a draft of that somewhere on my pc.. It was in my presentation to the IPC.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #93 November 17, 2008 No, I'm not meaning to turn it into an attack on you. I believe we'll all get farther by asking a lot of questions about how formations will be judged, are judged, etc. Flip side is, I'm disgusted with the people that have sent PM's saying that the work that everyone is doing is a waste of time because *they* are the ones who will make it work with the FAI and the rest of us are idiots because *we* don't know what we're doing. Is it about ego or is it about getting it accomplished? I don't know what the answer is. What we all know is that we don't know the answer. What we all know is that a great effort was undertaken to quanitify something that clearly isn't easily quantifiable. What we also know is that no matter what took place, anything short of an eligible group of judges ratifying the event won't satisfy you or anyone else "passionate" about seeing FAI acceptance. The bigger point, IMO, is that the FAI will never accept something that can't be specifically measured, and up to this point no one has come up with a means of doing so. Asking questions is a good thing, because through the process of elimination, an answer that satisfies most folks will be discovered. I do however, think your attitude needs some adjustment . A group of very skilled, equally passionate, and equally dedicated wingsuit flyers have put together the largest organized, slot assigned formation to date, and rather than having any sense of congraluatory communication, you've pissed on it from the moment it was announced to the moment it was completed. If anything diminishes wingsuiting, it's this immediate attack on the event itself, whether it hit one, both, or neither of the stated goals. Perhaps you've missed that in the aftermath of the very large wingsuit event in Elsinore, another large wingsuit event took place in Eloy. Some of those involved have responsibilities where we need to be traveling or working prior to providing exactly what you are demanding to see in the form that you've demanded to see it. I suppose that's what I'm tweaked about, is that you're demanding to see whatever it is you want to see on your terms on your time. It was only 12 hours ago that I gave the organizers all the pix and video that I had of the event (which is everything shot by everyone except Matt Hoover). It's gonna take em' a while to go through 700GB of data. I sure don't have time to do it right now, I'm on the first leg of a multi-country international travel schedule. I pity Jeff, Taya, Justin, Phil, and Mark...it was a grueling week ending with a grueling weekend in Eloy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #94 November 17, 2008 Your post is turning into an attack on me again. The facts: -A dive plan and criteria were stated before the event. -The formation was said to have been completed. -No proof has been posted online. -No one has been identified as the judge that can be consulted. There is an obvious incongruence. (It seems strange that if there had been "the photo" that it would simply have been misplaced.) From the many emails and PMs I have received I can safely say I am not the only one who has questions. The obvious way to use this discussion is to identify the way forward for future attempts, moving the goal posts after the fact is a step backwards. This, you will be happy to hear, is my last post in this thread.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #95 November 17, 2008 QuoteSo how long until we hear from Yuri on this topic??? Anyone want to start a pool?? Quotethe excellent ground shots that Linda was taking, were also not being properly overlayed with the grid IMHO. X and Y were being scaled, but Z was not taken into account at all... Unfortunately, it is really hard (like impossible) to get a 3-dimensional model of the flock from a single photograph, especially one that is set up to minimize distortions in X & Y... There are mathematical techniques for constructing 3d representations from 2-d pictures (CAT scans are the best known example). As it happens, it is an area in which I've done a lot of research and written a bunch of software. Yes, I COULD be persuaded...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #96 November 17, 2008 Quote There are mathematical techniques for constructing 3d representations from 2-d pictures (CAT scans are the best known example). As it happens, it is an area in which I've done a lot of research and written a bunch of software. Yes, I COULD be persuaded... Pretty please with sugar on top? Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 0 #97 November 17, 2008 Many magazines require that they are the first to publish a photograph when it is submitted. They probably wouldn't like it being flung around the internet. Don't get your panties in a bunch just yet, you'll just have to patient like everybody else. And you missed my point, I was comparing definitions of "slot perfect" and "grid perfect" Not if the photos I had seen were an "almost" completed formation and that somehow counts as the record. You do seem hostile and impatient about this whole thing. Why wait to get sanctioned from the FAI or whatever for an evnt like this? Flying in big ass formations is new for evrybody and the experience that jumpers gained will carry into many future formation attempts. We have to start somewhere, and learning how flock with 70 other people is a good start, no matter the criteria. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #98 November 17, 2008 Quote From the many emails and PMs I have received I can safely say I am not the only one who has questions. The obvious way to use this discussion is to identify the way forward for future attempts, moving the goal posts after the fact is a step backwards. I am not going to attack anyone here.. I just wanted to say congratulations to ALL the flyers and all people involved with that record. I don't care if it's official or not, it is the biggest wingsuit formation flown to date for sure, whether people were 3m apart or 1.5m or 4m I really could care less. This accomplishment is another HUGE step in our sport, that will give us all sorts of amazing exposure. Yes I do have questions about "how the hell do you judge this?" but that doesn't take ANYTHING away from the achievement of this record.. Again, congrats to all the flyers and everyone involved.. Keep it up. The bar was set VERY high for this record and you guys did it! Looking forward to the real money shots in Parachutist / Skydiving Magazine.. wherever they may end up being published. Congrats! Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #99 November 17, 2008 Judging any flock will be a pain due to the dynamic nature of a 3D moving formation. I have my doubts that the grid is the best way to judge the formation, but one thing it did do. It made us concentrate on flying our best. I wonder if the formation would have looked as tight if we had used a purely subjective system. I agree with Iwan. It is another great step on pushing this discipline to receiving some formal acceptance. Kudos to all the birds who made this thing happen.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joni 0 #100 November 17, 2008 In reading this thread I hear some of the comments echoing some of the differences in debriefing style I noticed in Europe compared to the US. We are an international flock but depending on where we are from may be use to analysing things in different ways, none of which are meant to be negative. The more open we are to everyone's thoughts and input the more we will learn and grow. We all fly in the same sky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
