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Phantom Verses Vampire

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Granted I probably haven't jumped with the best of the best yet, but as of now I haven't found any suit I couldn't keep up with or even over take in full flight with my phantom, and this includes people flying Vampires. I am just wondering if the Vampire is truly a faster suit. Same person flying both suits how much more performance are we talking about. I herd rumor that the Vampire has about 30 percent more performance then the Phantom, but I'm not sure I'm sold on that just yet. Would love to hear what other people think. I have been thinking about getting a Vampire down the road, but I would like to do some more research and try and get a few jumps on a demo suit that way I can compare the two suits myself.

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...as of now I haven't found any suit I couldn't keep up with or even over take in full flight with my phantom, and this includes people flying Vampires. I am just wondering if the Vampire is truly a faster suit.

...I herd rumor that the Vampire has about 30 percent more performance then the Phantom, but I'm not sure I'm sold on that just yet.




The fact that you can outfly other people in your Phantom, depends on many factors. I gues that if you were a good enough flyer, you would outfly 90% of the worlds WS flyers with a prodigy. Even the ones with a Vampire.

If we just talk about the suits not depending on the pilot we have two totally different suits withboth different styles of flying ad ranges of speed and lift.

To fully understand tha aerodynamics you need to talk to somebody else, but the vampire has at least three major things that will make it the fastet suit in this competition.

1. The leg wing is both longer, wider and more effiently formed for performanci in speed. The leg wing is the engine of the suit. The drive forward.

2. The back deflector system with a double leg/back wing, creates the lift and the stability, as it at the same time creates a back deflector to prevent the burble of turbulence. At the same time it inflates in all angles.

3. The straight angle of the lower part of the arm wing creates a long and wide arm wing compared with the smalle and curved arm wing of the phantom. The bigger arm wing with a straight line creates a nicer airflow and more lift. The more lift opens up for you to fly in a more agressive ange wich creates even more drive foward. If dont fly in an agressive angle, these arm wings will start to lift and you will break up and you will fly slow. But in the right flying style these arm wings allows you to use a steeper angle and to let your leg wing drive without falling forward.

more than thatthis suit is created for speed and distanse. THe phantom has a semi-long leg wing and a curved arm wing. THe curve is so the pilot safely can grab his/hers pilot chute and still have a with with handles to grab. The semi long leg wing is to have a long driving leg wing but without the extentions that could be difficult to fly with for a low experienced jumper or just for more safety.

-----

If you find your self outflying other jumpers you are either a good flyer and should with some training find that the Vampire 2 or 3 is a monster compared with the Phantom, or you should start flying with better pilots and see what happens.

Mark that the amount of time in the wiht suit has nothing to do with performance. The time you have in free fall is irrelevant and something for the unskilled people to play with. Speed and distance is everything. If you can fly longer in 2 minutes than your friend did in 1 minute just makes you the guy whos floating in a stationvagon with aking armes. But if you guys like to flote around for the record and do high fives about you 4 minutes free fall thats up to you.

well thats about it, hope this told you some about the two suits. They are both great but for different purpuses.

/Martin Rosén - Team bautasten of Sweden

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My experience has been that I never felt in about 50 jumps on the V2 that the suit(my particular one...not generalizing) had the potential to fly much better than the Phantom as I expected. My estimate was that they were about the same in performance with the V2 being a pain in the butt for the resulting performance.

Now comparing the Phantom I flew to the V2 I flew is comparing apples and oranges. With the Phantom, the instant I stepped out of the airplane, I knew the suit had potential. As a fellow phantom flier, you certainly know that feeling.

The V2 wing uses the same ribs as a V1 wing and there is no obstruction to adding V1 style inlets on the V2. I added those and used two wristbands on each arm to try and 'plug' the big holes at the end. See attached pics.

The V2 on the other hand, the arm wings never inflated well enough, even with the V1 style inlets added.

The V1 had a leg wing that was too long and that caused flapping at times.

The V3 based on the pictures posted looks to be a suit that is designed to inflate solidly. If that is the case, it would not surprise me if it performed as much as 30% better for the same person than a Phantom 1 would.

Kris


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For the same guy, if he knows how to fly both suits, will the Vampire perform much better than the Phantom? I guess the original poster's question could be reduced to that.

Kris



And if you read my answer that is whta Im answering.

Unless he isnt flying with bad flyers or if he flyes against him self, There is a great differens in speed.

If you are a talented flyer you will feel the difference. BUT the Vampire takes more training and skills to fly, its a more demanding suit to control and absolutley more demanding to max out.

The phantom is easy to handle and to speed up.

Both are great suits.

Another example is when me and a friend flew a quite long flight from a 1900 m high cliff. We first flew with vampires. Both failed to reach the landing cause we got two tiered in our arms. We then switched to Phantom and we could make it. The reason was that we got less tiered from the flying in the phantom.
This was the V1. The V2 is not as demanding as the V1 to fly and the V3 is even easier on your arms and the inflation is better

Inflation on the V1 was wrong cause the inlets got hidden when you flew in an agressive angle wich is the actual tecnique. On the V2, the inlets got replaced and had a better peformance but not perfect. THe latest model on the inlets that will be placed on the V3 gives a big difference and you can get big preassure in any angle of flight.

Vampire is faser and more agressive. Phantom is slower but less demanding on your arms and for skills.
/Martin - Team Bautasten of Sweden

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Inflation on the V1 was wrong cause the inlets got hidden when you flew in an agressive angle wich is the actual tecnique. On the V2, the inlets got replaced and had a better peformance but not perfect. THe latest model on the inlets that will be placed on the V3 gives a big difference and you can get big preassure in any angle of flight.

Vampire is faser and more agressive. Phantom is slower but less demanding on your arms and for skills.



Absolutely agree that big pressure in the wings is a good thing and that the V3 with what you just said about inflation would be easier on the arms.

As a side note, I think that the V2 performance increase over the V1 was from a more consistently inflated leg wing that does not flap. As a result of that, the contribution of the V2 arm wing inlet changes to improved performance, in my mind is not that significant.

Can you explain what these skills(other than strength) are needed to fly a Vampire vs a Phantom?

What do you mean by more faster and more aggressive? I understand faster(much bigger leg wing, so, more drive) but do not understand 'faster and more aggressive'.

How are these skills different between these two suits, for a person that has already figured out how to fly fast and steep?

Kris

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As a side note, I think that the V2 performance increase over the V1 was from a more consistently inflated leg wing that does not flap. As a result of that, the contribution of the V2 arm wing inlet changes to improved performance, in my mind is not that significant.



The legwing was a big advantage and it is in my opinion rock solid now. On the V1 it wasnt solid and quite scary to exit with...
THe V2 arm inlets were moved up to prevent from being in the wrong place during steep flying. IN the agressive flight position you need to curve your sholders forward as far as possible. This cause the V1 inlets to end up in the turbulense af your sholders and less inflation as a result. THe V inlets were more exposed, but then we found a new problem. During the steep position the pilot pushes the sholders hard on the inlets and they are getting closed by the preassure form your sholders. The new inlets on the V3 is located unerneeth the wing close to the pilots ribs and won't get closed or in the turbulense. THis will create an inlet that is allways open.


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Can you explain what these skills(other than strength) are needed to fly a Vampire vs a Phantom?



The Phantom is formed so a pilot can more or less go out of the plane/of the cliff and just stretch the wings and it will fly. Maybe not efficient enough but still ok. The vampire takes a little bit more than this. TO fly the vampire SAFE you need to give it a bit of a thaught on your body position. THe vampire har extentions on arms and legs, in the wrong position they can create wierd things. Also if you want the Vampire to really fly fast you need to control your whole body carefully and think about head/neck position, sholders, upper postial Thorax, upper arm position, lower arms, hands, arm-wing-sticks, angle of hips, rotation of legs and feats, preassure between sholders and toes, preassure between elbows and sholders. etc etc.

Off cource you need to do this with all suits, but with phantom or acro its more about angle and stamina.

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What do you mean by faster and more aggressive? I understand faster(much bigger leg wing, so, more drive) but do not understand 'faster and more aggressive'.



Agressive is how the suit alows you to be agressive in your manuvering of the suit. THe V2 has a straight line from the arm wing tip to the hip. This creates a suit to have an double block form anf can be rotated separatly like a wasp or a bee (insects). With this design you can rotate your upperbody before you rotate your lower body and the suit can creat a cork-screw roll turn. IF you you have a lot of energy in the suit this turn can be very agressive and fast without you loosing your line of flight. other suits has an arm wing that crosses the leg wing wich gives a mor "mono block" form that manouvers more as one pease and floates a bit in the turns.

Other than this the inlets on the vampire is created to take wind from the front not from underneeth. This makes the suit better for fast flying or steep flying. this is also more agressive.



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How are these skills different between these two suits, for a person that has already figured out how to fly fast and steep?




As I said earlier, You need to think more about your body position than in other suit, IF you want to take the maximum out of the suit. Skills are more about how you understand the suits design and purpouse. To flock dive you need to almost stall the vampire to keep up with the vertical speed. That is suboptimal for a suit that is built to move 80% forward. Then you will be better of flying a suit that can fly slower in a flying position, not a falling position.
/Martin - Team Bautasten of Sweden

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Martin,

Thanks for taking the time to write that post.

A number of things you have posted about the head position, shoulder position, the angle of the arm wing attachment and the consequences of that on body position and the ability to make a smaller angle with the arm wings and torso are very good points and I totally agree with you.

To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently because of all the reasons discussed above. So it is not a big surprise why a consistently flying Phantom will fly better most of the time than a Vampire as the original poster noted.

Kris

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To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently ...a consistently flying Phantom will fly better ...

to put it simply, quoting T: it's not the arrow, it's the indian

sometimes the indian needs a different arrow, only good indians are aware of that :P
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently ...a consistently flying Phantom will fly better ...

to put it simply, quoting T: it's not the arrow, it's the indian

sometimes the indian needs a different arrow, only good indians are aware of that :P



I am the Indian ;) in this forum :D:D.

Kris

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To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently because of all the reasons discussed above. So it is not a big surprise why a consistently flying Phantom will fly better most of the time than a Vampire as the original poster noted.



Well its not that simple. Its easy to say that just because a suit demands a better pilot, there is an error in the suit.

If you think about a Fomula 1 car andd compare that to a BMW M5.

Both of them are fast cars, teh BMW has a V12 engine and is fast as hell. but the formula 1 is about 100km/h faster....
Pretty much everybody can drive a BMW M5 in 220 km/h on a big road. But only specially trained drivers can drive a Formula 1 in 320 km/h.

If I sat in the formula on I would either drive of the road and crash or I would drive it slower or take the curves wrong and loose speed.

can you se what Im saying? Over all the phanome is not a faster suit than the vampire no.... their maximum speed is different.

But you need to be a better pilot to use that extra speed the vampire has.

If you have poor flying skills and cant fly fast enough... getting a Vampire might not be the answer. you might actually fly slower in your new Formula 1 suit just because you cant handle it.

As James said. Get a Vampire and try it... you will see.

in the beginning you will feal like you are back on step 1 again... but thats how it is.

good luck.
/Martin - Team Bautasten of Sweden

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To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently ...a consistently flying Phantom will fly better ...

to put it simply, quoting T: it's not the arrow, it's the indian

sometimes the indian needs a different arrow, only good indians are aware of that :P



I am the Indian ;) in this forum :D:D.

Kris



Actually, there are more. I know of at least 2 American Indians who post in this forum.;)
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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To put it simply, the V1 and the V2 don't perform consistently because of all the reasons discussed above. So it is not a big surprise why a consistently flying Phantom will fly better most of the time than a Vampire as the original poster noted.



Well its not that simple. Its easy to say that just because a suit demands a better pilot, there is an error in the suit.

If you think about a Fomula 1 car andd compare that to a BMW M5.

Both of them are fast cars, teh BMW has a V12 engine and is fast as hell. but the formula 1 is about 100km/h faster....
Pretty much everybody can drive a BMW M5 in 220 km/h on a big road. But only specially trained drivers can drive a Formula 1 in 320 km/h.

If I sat in the formula on I would either drive of the road and crash or I would drive it slower or take the curves wrong and loose speed.

can you se what Im saying? Over all the phanome is not a faster suit than the vampire no.... their maximum speed is different.

But you need to be a better pilot to use that extra speed the vampire has.

good luck.



As a car enthusiast and Top Gear fan, I must point out that the M5 has a V10 :P.

Agree with you that the V suits are faster than the Phantom.

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Another example is when me and a friend flew a quite long flight from a 1900 m high cliff. We first flew with vampires. Both failed to reach the landing cause we got two tiered in our arms. We then switched to Phantom and we could make it. The reason was that we got less tiered from the flying in the phantom.
This was the V1.



So Formula One pilots like yourself and your friend could not fly a V1 for 5700 ft (1750m) efficiently, there is no way 'Joe the wingsuit skydiver' ;) is flying efficiently with the Vampire at break off.

Its not the arrow, its just that the Indian needs something stronger than Viagra:ph34r:.

Out of curiosity, How far is the landing area at this 1900m site?

Kris

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As a car enthusiast and Top Gear fan, I must point out that the M5 has a V10 :P.

Agree with you that the V suits are faster than the Phantom.

So Formula One pilots like yourself and your friend could not fly a V1 for 5700 ft (1750m) efficiently, there is no way 'Joe the wingsuit skydiver' ;) is flying efficiently with the Vampire at break off.

Its not the arrow, its just that the Indian needs something stronger than Viagra:ph34r:.

Out of curiosity, How far is the landing area at this 1900m site?



First I dont know shit about cars. I have a Volvo 745 from 1988.

I think the Indian (or was it Joe) in this case needs some more jumps ( both from plane and from high cliffs) to really contribute from his old or new wingsuit and actually understand the dynamics of the flying. It will come with experience and knoledge.

About the 1900 m cliff I dont know... it long and demanding anyway. I guess a 5 km or something... Its not the distance that breaks us its the time in free fall. I get both bored andtiered after one minute of efficiant flying. Its more fun to play and be dynamic than to push the limits of lift.
/Martin - Team Bautasten of Sweden

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Its not the arrow, its just that the Indian needs something stronger than Viagra:ph34r:.



Oh and yea. Viagra doesn't make you better in bed it just helps you to stay in bed longer, even if you are finished.




Well, you would have made it back if you could hold it a bit longer :P. Finished or not!

Kris

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Well, you would have made it back if you could hold it a bit longer :P. Finished or not!

Kris



Much like sex...these are usually statements made by people who talk and think about it a lot..but should get out more, and actually do it for a change;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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...these are usually statements made by people who talk and think about it a lot..but should get out more, and actually do it for a change;)



word!!!

but i prefere shorter free falls and shorter timespan in sex. IM an old man with a full sqedule. (not with chicks though)
/Martin - Team Bautasten of Sweden

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Do you think I care about what you think most people on this forum think of me?

People can think for themselves.

As for the hug, it is because you seem like you need to ridicule others to feel happy. Hardly behavior that is expected from a 'Big cat'

Do you have any information that you would like to share with us that is relevant to this thread?

How many jumps do you have in a Phantom, V1 or a V2?

Kris

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Do you think I care about what you think most people on this forum think of me?

People can think for themselves.

As for the hug, it is because you seem like you need to ridicule others to feel happy. Hardly behavior that is expected from a 'Big cat'



The 'big cat' is a label you put on me..if that raises expectations on your behalf on what I write and think...then sorry if I dont meet those expectations;)

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How many jumps do you have in a Phantom, V1 or a V2?



All together..maybe 10...2 or 3 jumps on each..jumping an acro2 every now and then atm.
What does that have to do with me asking you to get out moreB|

if its about contributing to the thread, I dont think your Viagra added a whole lot of on-topic talk either:P

Laugh a little..it doesnt hurtB|
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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