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Wings over Gransee

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For instance Tobi wanted to use weights for the speed jumps. Now would you allow that or not? If you allow that should you also allow people to use different suits for the different jumps types?



We used the original FAI F3B rules as a guideline which do not allow to change/alter the plane for the different tasks, but do allow it for different rounds and do allow to add weight.

Weights will definitely help in the speed category, so Tobi's plan made sense.

A quick discussion between the competitors lead to the conclusion that allowing weights would increase the advantage which light, skinny pilots have already.

It was therefore decided to not allow weights to equalize the 'build' factor a bit and we will add that to the PPC rules.

As a sidenote: We will also ban any kind of propulsion system (right, Jester? :P) and any modifications to change the wing geometry (as in the original FAI F3B rules. Right Robi? I saw you rolling the grips and as I got to know you you have probably already devised a plan to integrate a zipper in the armwings to make the armwings smaller for the speed task :P).

Klaus
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I asked Tony to make me a funny green suit, does that make me a wingsuit designer?



No..it just makes you someone with a severly bad taste in colour..

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Now YOU are just talking (I'd rather not use the B word since it's rude) about going to make your own wingsuit without actually showing a single stitch.



Ill shoot you some pix on MSN...not everything is a public show and tell..

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I am just thinking about improving the discipline and make it fun for everyone.



And we are doing the same, but also trying to keep it realtistic and do-able in the execution..and just throwing the F word, B word and L and Q word in there for good measure and fun..

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Although this was the best organised competition so far, no doubt also due to Costyn's and Klaus's software, there are still some questions to be answered. For instance Tobi wanted to use weights for the speed jumps. Now would you allow that or not?



If Tobi also used those same weights during the time and distance rounds, personaly Id say yes. Though Klaus and Costyn decided the body and wingsuit design are already enough variable factors, and I also agree with that one.

Looking at it from a simplistic pov. if heavy people object to skinny people winning freefall-time competitions, all they have to do is loose weight and become skinny as well. Or just whoop their skinny asses in the speed and distance rounds.

What might be fun is if people (like Tony/Jeff/Justin etc) organised some 'SM1 only' or 'XS only' GPS competitions. That way you could get a much clearer view on the actual pilots skills (or at least, comparing build and skill roughly), and take the different suit models/designs out of the picture.

Might be nice as well, having a Vampires only/Blades only/SuperMach1/S-Fly Expert 'only' competition organised by the manufacturers, to get a general view of what different skilled/built people can do with the same suit design.

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If you allow that should you also allow people to use different suits for the different jumps types?



I remember you complaining how you didnt have the XS in time for Marl.
At that time it wasnt a commercialy available suit for everyone exept people close to TonySuits. As was the PF prototype/special suit flying at Marl. I think people showing up in tweaked or costum designs twice the size of commercialy available suits pissed people off more (or at least creates a sad vibe of 'how am I supposed to compete with that') than anyone would be bothered with a skinny dude.

The thing is...there are a bazillion things to B about...or even C about..
But just sticking with the simple basics that seem to work, and accepting the variables for what they are...its all part of the game..

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And I am not planning to organise a competition myself but I do enjoy going to them to meet and fly with new people, see new countries and extend my collection of paralog licenses:)



Do share...all I have is 107 neptune screen protectors from Scotts raffles at the An72 boogie:P
ooh yea..and a bouncy ball with leds..! Cant beat that one:)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Ill shoot you some pix on MSN...not everything is a public show and tell..



Right, because someone might steal your exact wing profile design and make it commercially available before you can. No don't worry, hush hush, won't tell anyone about your modified gimp suit.

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I remember you complaining how you didnt have the XS in time for Marl.
At that time it wasnt a commercialy available suit for everyone exept people close to TonySuits. As was the PF prototype/special suit flying at Marl. I think people showing up in tweaked or costum designs twice the size of commercialy available suits pissed people off more (or at least creates a sad vibe of 'how am I supposed to compete with that') than anyone would be bothered with a skinny dude.



Most wingsuit flyers will never get a suit like the XS or the V3. Some because they think bigger is not better, some because they think they don't have the power and some because they are simply scaired. You can only get these people involved in competitions by removing the wingsuit size factor. You now also have a custom tweaked suit that is not commercially available, I guess you can't go to competitions anymore right? Since you have the very best that birdman technology has to offer. *uchbwha* sorry, had something in my throat.

Oh and I think a manufacturer specific competition would be the worst thing ever to happen in the history of mankind, the world and skydiving in particular. Even worse than getting a creationist vice president. god can you imagine...
Tristan
Will you answer "NO" to my next question?

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Man, can't we all just get along? :D Seriously though, this is the kind of shit that happens when we loose sight of the reason why we Wingsuit in the first place ,which is supposed to be to have fun. I swear, it's like being surrounded by Jr high school kids and not adults sometimes.[:/] That is all.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Actually this kind of thing happens at any competition. Someone mentioned these were races, speed or distance(?) ,so its natural. Ever been in the pits at a drag race Scott? You can't say these lads are not getting along. At least until they start to not get along.

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The bitching would perhaps be reduced by having classes, alot like racing. Open class to fly whatever you brought. Production class to fly whatever has been commercially available for 6 or more months. Alot like offroad motorcycle racing when the factories brought super-expensive, super-lightweight motorcycles to race against privateers whose bikes were heavy production machines with a fraction of the resources invested. Weight limits were imposed to level the field.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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As fun as 35 different weight, size and suit classes are, I dont see it happening.
Accept that someone else has a better build or bigger suit, and fly because you want to do the best you can. Sorry if that cuts into your collection of paralog licences or prevents you from taking home the cash prize every single time.

I dont see any marathon or sprinting where the runners with shorter legs get a handicap advantage.

As to the useless digs at birdman, and my own happy tinkering with my wingsuit..if you dont like it, dont fly it, but dont bash it because its not your toy of choice..
Nothing Im doing is top secret, nor is it 'the best of birdman technology'. Its me, modifying my own, privately owned wingsuit. And yes, Id fly this in a competition to see what I can do, and I wouldnt want to see different classes because someone has a better build or suit.

These races are with yourself, and trying to compensate build with skill, and like any sport, nothing prevents you from 'going all out' and adjusting your bodyshape through exercise, so you weigh 35 kilos. If thats what you feel you need to do?

And if you do feel the need to create a race with 35000 sub-rules and math formulas that will end in someone with a classic flying a shoddy race, but somehow taking first place, feel free to organie that one yourself..:):)

All this stuff is organised because it sounds like good fun..I had no clue the suit I flew needed to be a different brand to get your full approval ;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I´m sorry for my late reply, I was busy contributing to society.

you complain about me going to a competition with an xs and yet you do exactly the same with a bigger non commercially available suit? I for one think these competitions are a great way of comparing suits and testing the new models against each other. Time and time again you claim that bigger is not better so why complain when someone tries out a bigger suit to see how it compares against others? I don´t understand what your problem is against comparing different suits, it all helps in the development of the performance of the suits as well as wingsuit flying as a discipline. Creating a competition for one brand only like you suggest just creates animosity.

I had to read back to see why you are attacking me like this but I only tried to point out that there are still a lot of things to figure out about these competitions. I´m sure you have thought about it a lot, but only when you test out your theories in real competitions can you be sure it works. Don´t be offended if someone tries to start a discussion about the different ways of organizing a competition. Clearly there are still lots of thing that even you have not thought about.
Tristan
Will you answer "NO" to my next question?

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you complain about me going to a competition with an xs and yet you do exactly the same with a bigger non commercially available suit?



Yes...because I couldnt care less if anyone showed up in a classic, or a Spectre 190 with a hole in the front where his head sticks out.
Its you wanting to ad catagories and wingloading so you can defeat Tobi:P

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I for one think these competitions are a great way of comparing suits and testing the new models against each other.



The thing is..its NEVER clear when its the model..build of the flyer..skill of the flyer...

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I don´t understand what your problem is against comparing different suits, it all helps in the development of the performance of the suits as well as wingsuit flying as a discipline.



I dont have any issues with that..but just wished we could finaly skip the constant naging and blaming/claiming everything but a pilots performance in these competitions.

Robi didnt do so well in his V3..so the suit sux?
Loic outflies everyone in a tiny S-Fly Expert...he is a great flyer

I never really get the line where people see the flyer as the reason for winning (or loosing/not doing so well) and other times put the whole claim on just the suit again..

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Creating a competition for one brand only like you suggest just creates animosity.



I only suggested that to try and create some form of competition where people can finaly leave the suit design for what it is, and just focus on the skill of the flyers. But personaly..Id be happy seeing just an open class, intermediate class and beginners class in these competitions..

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I had to read back to see why you are attacking me like this but I only tried to point out that there are still a lot of things to figure out about these competitions.



100% agreed..but try and see the problem with implementing the 1000 suggested rules by everyone.
Robi also made some exelent suggestions for this comp (as well as the artistic one) and of course..as time goes on...rules might change and be modified...but its all baby steps..

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I´m sure you have thought about it a lot, but only when you test out your theories in real competitions can you be sure it works. Don´t be offended if someone tries to start a discussion about the different ways of organizing a competition. Clearly there are still lots of thing that even you have not thought about.



haha..I fully agree...but also try and see that you and I (in person and online) both share the same strong 'this is my view on things and thats the way it is', which collides in a fun way.

Scott may cry about schoolboy behaviour and would rather walk away with his tail between his legs:P
Id call that schoolboy behaviour, and call us REAL MEN, for sticking our necks out for what we want to say;)

*bends over to have Scotts boot inserted in places where the sun dont shine*
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I'd be happy seeing just an open class, intermediate class and beginners class in these competitions..



Now here is a constructive thought!

Any suggestions on how to draw the lines between those classes? On suit alone or on pilot experience as well?

Klaus


My Logbook

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I'd be happy seeing just an open class, intermediate class and beginners class in these competitions..



Now here is a constructive thought!

Any suggestions on how to draw the lines between those classes? On suit alone or on pilot experience as well?

Klaus



Thats why I sugested just first giving this framework a go, before we Tristan-ize the competition, and spend 5 weeks fighting over who fits in what class. All just to make sure Tristan can win another paralog licence over Tobi:P
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Actually, I would be disadvantagizing myself since I am taller and have a bigger suit than Tobi and anyone else probably. You really need to get your facts and figures right before acting like you know everything and your ideas are the best and everyone else is stupid. And I don´t know why you are saying I want classes. As Klaus mentioned there are even more variables added by seperating classes. Please don´t invent opinions for me. I don´t want weight classes, suit classes, wind classes or whatever classes. I just mentioned that wingloading is in theory possible. And with the 8 participants in this comp it would be rather silly to have classes.
Tristan
Will you answer "NO" to my next question?

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Mike , Mirko and all DZ crew thanks for nice organization and warm atmosphere at Gransee!

Competition was interesting for me as I saw that I need to go out and jump more from plane to get use to a height and directions. :$

There is plenty ideas for the possible changes about the competition rules. Discussion will bring some solutions and changes for sure.

However, Klaus' key point is that those rules are already FAI standard for model planes and as such for sure works well and are easy to defend them in front of FAI.

I am missing the ''human'' factor, such dueling, because competing against the ''box''isn't so attractive to me, but I am sure that in the future WS sport will find the way how to make the whole competition closer to public and jumpers.

In the future will be great to set the category for beginner class, and get new people interested for WS competition.

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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I don´t want weight classes, suit classes, wind classes or whatever classes. I just mentioned that wingloading is in theory possible. And with the 8 participants in this comp it would be rather silly to have classes.



But if there were classes for every height, weight, and suit combination than everyone could be a winner!
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Scott may cry about schoolboy behaviour



The only reason I mention this is because its a viscious circle that is repeated in the WS forum/community that works against us all. Someone thinks they have an original idea and runs with it before thinking the entire thing through and then gets bent out of shape when someone points a shortcoming out or simply takes a stab at the other person. There is a difference between constructive discussion and simple bickering, bickering is what seems to prevail in this forum. I have yet to meet anyone who will express themselves in person in the same manner as they do here in the forums. Real men say what they mean and mean what they say and they do it face to face with the other person. Keyboard warriors are a dime a dozen and don't have the balls to speak to others in person the way they do around the forums. Speak on the forums as if you were face to face with that person and more usefull discussions will be had.Bottom line, the message is often lost in all the noise and nothing is resolved.

Klaus and I have been discussing some of these very same topics since as early as 2005 if memory serves me correctly. There are some real challenges that need to be addressed in a realistic and supportable manner if a competition format is to be adopted. Klaus has a very good idea of the things that need to be overcome as we spent a long time discussing it and drinking beer in Spain at PIA about this very topic. There are more hurdles to overcome than many realize and there are very few simple solutions to many of the issues. I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying if it is to be done right, its going to take some effort and time. Some of the issues may not have a good solution or any viable solution to them, time will tell. The one thing Klaus has going that is key and that we discussed in great detail, is using a FAI recognized competition format. But thats only 1 small part of a bigger picture. And thats not saying that what is currently being used is THE solution but it is a good start or foundation to begin building off of based on what proves supportable through trial and error. There are definately some things that need to be changed or refined to better fit a WS type of competition but its a start and time will tell if its viable or not. The only way this can be accomplished is if we as a community can discuss these issues like adults and leave the sand on the playground.We also need to look at this problem beyond just the competition itself, there are larger, more important pieces that require a thought out approach if competition is to extend beyond a backyard type of event.

Excuse me now, I have to get back to the adult world.;)
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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I am missing the ''human'' factor, such dueling, because competing against the ''box''isn't so attractive to me, but I am sure that in the future WS sport will find the way how to make the whole competition closer to public and jumpers.



Yes, thats true.
I´m sure it will become better and better.

We all should be more relaxed, WHY SO SERIOUS ?

All my respect to guys like you Robi, James, Tony, Jeff, Jarno, Costyn etc.
Take part in a competition also means:"here my results" not everybody like to go for this . . .

I´ve started the first int. wingsuit competition with prize money (already 5 years ago) B| and hopefully one day, the "purest art of flying" will be as famous as Volleyball/Kickboxing/Dragracing, etc.

Whats obout a big event/competition in 2010 -
we all together with TV-life coments and so on ?
:)
don´t pester the jester . . or better: WHY SO SERIOUS ? ?

www.pralle-zeiten.de

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