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paulca

What would you do?

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You may remember my first post here where I said on my first jump nobody checked my leg straps were tight.

Well, my second jump I found no rigs in the student rack (left open to the world, unlocked), so I lifted one of the post packing table. No packing sign off slip, no indication it was actually ready to jump other than it "looked" packed. I meant to ask, but... forgot. Luckily it was grand, pulled to the right a little, but worked fine.

My girlfriend and a friend of ours did their 4th and 5th jumps respectfully on Sunday and while this information is second hand, I trust it.

First, the pack that our mate lifted off the shelf had some of the deployment bag showing out from under a flap! He just picked another.

Then neither of them got a gear check, the JM just tugged their chest straps after putting on the altimeter. The rigs were not checked the ADDs not checked, leg straps not checked, nothing.

Both jumped and both rigs worked fine.

Trouble is they were not planning on taking up the student plane (206) as it was being used for a demo at 4 o'clock and worse yet the pick up van was needed for said demo to pick up the jumpers, so it needed to leave ASAP. In short, they fumbled together a jump master, a left over tandem, these 2 students and sent the plane up. Everything was rushed.

When my GF told me this and I remarked I'd received several PMs on here about just my legs straps, that maybe she should raise this issue, at least informally about not getting a gear check.

I also wanted to draw attention to the fact, and you may correct me, but packed student rigs should always have a packing slip attached or some other indication that they are READY TO JUMP. The student rig rack should also be locked! It would not be too hard for a kid or bad person to simply fiddle with them, intentional/malicious or not.

We don't want to rock the boat, so, do you think it's possible to have just a quiet word with one or more members of the team to raise these concerns without the hassle of starting a whole stewards inquiry etc. and making everyone's lives difficult?

Paul

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did you ASK your local instructor/rigger/whatever-responsible-person for gear, gear check etc ?

As I read it you just took some gear which looked packed and went...

It also seems you didn't give a check to your gear.

If you are not happy about things go at your DZ, explain your problem to the "higher instances" of the DZ, and if there is no correction, move to another DZ.

It seems sloppy DZ's raise sloppy students.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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did you ASK your local instructor/rigger/whatever-responsible-person for gear, gear check etc ?



It's supposed to be part of their procedures for students. Because...

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As I read it you just took some gear which looked packed and went...

It also seems you didn't give a check to your gear.



(a) They usually just say, grab and rig, lid and suit and come over, and (b) they don't teach us how to do a gear check to ourselves or each other. Not yet anyway.

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If you are not happy about things go at your DZ, explain your problem to the "higher instances" of the DZ, and if there is no correction, move to another DZ.



This is why we don't want to rock the boat. There is only one DZ in this country. The next is a good 100 miles away in the republic of Ireland.

EDIT: Point taken about asking if you haven't yet received a gear check.

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but packed student rigs should always have a packing slip attached or some other indication that they are READY TO JUMP. The student rig rack should also be locked! It would not be too hard for a kid or bad person to simply fiddle with them, intentional/malicious or not.



Whatever other DZ issues might be, usually DZ's don't operate like nuclear weapons stockpiles. Rigs sit on racks and there's an assumption nobody has toyed with them. They may get locked up at night. Occasionally they may be in a separate gear room that only staff are supposed to access, but it isn't a secure facility normally.

DZ's may well have a tracking system for pack jobs (main canopy), so if something goes wrong, they can check with the packer to see if there was an issue. If a rig is packed, then it is packed. The quality of the pack job, though, you never know. (I don't know if pack job tracking is any different in the UK; things there are sometimes more formal than in the US/Can.)

(Field packed mains with daisy chained lines, being put back in service, only helped kill a dumb student or two back in the 1960s. One doesn't field pack like that nowadays so it isn't an issue.)

I know one DZ that leaves rental gear unpacked. Then every renter is responsible for the pack job, and can't complain they had a hard opening or lost the canopy because of someone else's pack job. But that's the exception.

If nobody checks your leg straps, even if that is pretty sloppy on the part of instructors, mention it! People aren't perfect and you have to speak up because in not that many more jumps you'll be expected to be able to keep yourself alive. An instructor might think by jump 4 you know enough to at least tighten your straps properly.

But the instructors still have some responsibility at that stage to keep you safe, and should be doing a full gear check.

In the UK I thought every jumper is supposed to get a gear check before boarding, student or not.

A little boat rocking can be good. (But if you do it only here on dz, you tend to get a lot of criticism!)

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Peter has nailed the storage of the rigs part of your issue. Most DZ's leave rigs where they can be accessed so they can be used. ;)

Packing slips might be something unique to the UK or your DZ but most of the world does not use them.

As for gear checks some times they can be done with out you directly knowing that a check is being done. This can be done via a visual check at arms length with out needing to have hands all over the rig for the inspection. Initially the instructor should be doing a hands on check to verify things are routed correctly but past that they might be able to do a lot of the checks at an arms distance.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I had a think about this on the drive home from work just there. I have a plan to turn what might be a complaint into a positive, pro-active step forward instead.

I/We will ask,

1) Can you show us how to check a rig is good?
2) Can you talk us through a gear check?

... and if we don't feel we have had one, we will ask, can I have a gear check.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Paul

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Be more pro-active about your personal well being and safety. Otherwise you may not be active too much longer.
B|B|B|B|B|



I wanted to reply to this specifically. On my first jump the plane had engine issues the lift before. The pilot was sorting that out with a screw driver, then test flying and then said he wanted only 3 on the next load JIC.

With all this going on I had too much time sitting in my rig brooding. The ground women who usually does the checking is running around like a headless chicken changing jump loads and jumper numbers, doing radio checks and altimeters.... calmly and quietly shouting (in that way women can!) at the other instructors for not bothering to help out.

But... I had a feeling I had to keep stepping on to keep my nerves in check, but it boiled down to...

"I am in their hands right now. I hope they don't forget something."

I hated that feeling, the feeling of being completely in someone's hands when that someone looks like they currently have too much on their plate.

I knew the solution is to learn how to look after myself, but ... it was jump no. 1.

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So you don't know how to do a gear check, yet you're deciding that your instructors aren't giving you a proper one? Okaaaay.

You know you can ask any experienced jumper for one, right? Although they will probably refer you back to your instructor as you're a student. Why not cut out the middle man and ask your instructor to their face to show you what they're doing when they do a gear check? That way you're learning AND reassuring yourself.


You know that a completed packing slip indicates that a student rig is ready to jump, but you decided to take a rig without one attached and are worried about it? Again... okaaay. How about not takig one until you've asked if it's ready to jump?


No offense, but you and your friends have about 10 jumps between you and currently have no idea about skydiving, but are forming opinions based on your interpretation of internet posts and how you believe things should work.

Don't rock the boat - just ask your instructors these questions rather than putting a 'sloppy DZ' post up in a public forum. If they're any good at all they'll welcome a chance to share knowledge with students. ;)


Seriously, this site is a really bad learning tool for students - You can't differentiate between good information and bad information yet, or information that's suitable for one level of jumper or one type of gear or another simply because you don't have the experience to make those calls.
Add to the fact that students are treated differently to experienced jumpers and you'll soon work out that your instructors are by FAR the best source of information you can get. Ask them all of these questions - buy them a beer in the evenings and ask them to show you how the gear works, or how to pack, or what the requirements for jumpmastering students are (I can guarantee you that they don't just 'fumble together' a JM ;)), or how exit orders work.


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My instructor always checks my gear, at least on the first jumps he checked thoroughly. If not, I definitely would've asked. You will have to seek a lot of information in this sport, it's not just handed over to you. People are usually glad to help out, just ask them. But, I think the instructor should check the gear on the first few jumps, and teach the student what to do, regardless if the student asked or not.

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My instructor always checks my gear, at least on the first jumps he checked thoroughly. If not, I definitely would've asked. You will have to seek a lot of information in this sport, it's not just handed over to you. People are usually glad to help out, just ask them. But, I think the instructor should check the gear on the first few jumps, and teach the student what to do, regardless if the student asked or not.



I would agree. There is a lot of information and I respect them not giving it to you all at once. First jump training is, "Here is what you need to stay alive up there.", any more might involve the student (me) forgetting something critical.

@yoink
I said it was my GF who said she didn't get a gear check. I didn't say they didn't do it properly.

I accepted that not tightening my own leg straps on my first jump was MY responsibility, it was here that I was told otherwise.

The time I lifted the pack without a slip round the lower riser I got a gear check immediately afterwards.

I am not forming opinions on Internet posts, I am forming an opinion based on being at the DZ in a rig watching what is going on around me. If my opinions lead to wrong conclusions then that will be because I am a student who has only jumped twice and I only have my 'feelings' to go on.

The reason I asked here is I do not know how these things work with DZs. I/we were afraid if we even mentioned, "I don't think I had a gear check last time.", that the incident book would come out and our instructor pulled over the coals and official inquiries and all that ho-ha. So I was asking if it could be done discretely.

I will also edit the post title to remove the last 2 words in agreement with that point of yours.

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I have a plan to turn what might be a complaint into a positive, pro-active step forward instead.

I/We will ask,

1) Can you show us how to check a rig is good?
2) Can you talk us through a gear check?

... and if we don't feel we have had one, we will ask, can I have a gear check.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Paul

way to go.

enjoy the rest of your skydiving career :)
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Wait. In my book, students are themselves partly responsible for getting both a gearcheck and a steering briefing (both mandatory here) BEFORE boarding the airplane.

Some initiative is expected here people. Don't just grab a rig (are you even alowed to do that by yourself at this point?), gear up and then stand around. Make sure you know what the procedure is at your DZ, and if not sure or if you think it's getting close to boarding time, GO FIND an instructor to check you and brief you, all this you make sure is done comfortably on time before boarding the plane. YOU are partly responsible if you feel you are getting rushed. You can think for yourself, right? If you feel you're getting rushed too much, you could also stand down from the load. But mostly, you can make things go more smoothly for you by being more pro-active if needed, and sounds like it is.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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I'm jumping in here..

I've had a similar experience as the GF that paulca mentioned "I don't remember getting the gear check"

1. You are all right in saying "ask the instructor" but when you are terrified within an inch of your life AND it is part of the training to ask for a gear check - at that point in time one "me" is depending on my instructor to instruct me, I lack the ability to request a gear check - I put my abosolute trust in the instructors that they do what they need to do.. now on to

2. I should ask - but what if I don't know what to ask? this is why I am here and paulca is here is to get some fruitful advice on what to do when.. its good guidance on asking for this and that, but thats ok when you have some idea about what you are doing - 1st and 2nd jumps I think are the responisibilty of the instructor, an assumption on my part, even though we have decided that we want to conduct some crazy jumps from a plane (can't say its a perfectly good plane cuz its not)

3. On my 3rd jump my radio did not work and I brought myself in (downstream, so it was a hard landing) but I hit the right dz, so at some point I must have picked something up from the training. My point is that we can't collect all the info from one 6hr training and the natural reaction to jumping out of a plane may for most people constrain thier logical abilities

Hence, why I would view dz.com as a source of info to guide me and anyone else to learn what to ask and when etc.

All I would ask, so I can learn from this post, is that I'm not frightened to post here cuz the response will be "ask the instructor" cuz I will do that - but that any supplemental info from other peoples experince is passed onto me.

Now, back onto the original post - what to do if..

I take it its ok to pester the instructors (even when they are flat out on multiple jump plans) to check this and that yeah?
Follow the momentum, however, some things are choosen for us

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In the UK, under the BPA regs, anyone who is not Catagory 8 is a student, and under the BPA regs all students must be checked by a qualified instructor prior to boarding the plane (nb, ALL jumpers must be checked by a B licence jumper or higher prior to boarding the plane in the UK, but it is stated that students must be checked by an instructor).

I am not sure if it is mandatory, but it is certainly "good practice" for students to then be checked again by their instructor just before they jump.

Student rigs have to be packed by someone who is signed off to pack that gear (they will have a packing certificate stating the canopy and container that they can pack). At many DZs student gear has a packing book that tracks who packed it (experienced gear generally does not have a packing book, but experienced rental gear may have). There is no way to check if a packed rig has been packed correctly (although it is pretty hard to intentionally pack a malfunction).

There are certain things you should check with a rig before putting it on and jumping, however as a student it is not unexpected for you to not know what to check/look for - especially in the first few jumps.

If you have not been checked before getting on the plane SPEAK UP and tell your instructor. If you have been checked, and want another check then ASK (nb in the UK if a student asks anyone for a check that person will send the student to an instructor if they are not one themselves).

If you want to know how to check a rig before or after it has been put on (pins, flaps, handles etc) then ASK AN INSTRUCTOR - a good time to do this would be on one of the (many) weather holds we have in the UK.

Blue skies

Paul

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...(although it is pretty hard to intentionally pack a malfunction)



Hmm, I must have a particularly evil imagination, because I can't imagine how intentionally packing a mal can be harder than trying to pack a non-mal. In fact, if you want I can pack a rig with the guarantee that there will be a mal, but I could never pack one so that I can guarantee there won't be one.

What do you want? PCIT? Piece o cake to pack. Brake fire? Stuck toggle? Line twists? Line over? Step through? Bag lock? No problem! "Broken" brake line or riser? Heck, I can even give you the rare "Wrap lock"!

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...(although it is pretty hard to intentionally pack a malfunction)



Hmm, I must have a particularly evil imagination,


Imagination and rality are pretty different. ;)

I saw a DZ deliberately try and pack some mals for training videos they were making. They had to resort to sewing them into the canopy to get them to mal regularly and they way they wanted. :D


re Carofreefalls:
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"I lack the ability to request a gear check"



pfft. You don't lack the ability to ask anything. You lack the confidence maybe, but that's a different issue.

Look, in skydiving this axiom is truer than almost anywhere else - "there ARE no stupid questions". Look at the explanation of the forum you're posting in: "There is a direct relationship between your knowledge, skill and attitude and skydiving safety." Never, never be afraid to ask something of your instructors. It may well keep you alive.

However, know WHO you're asking and whether you should trust their advice. On the internet posters can be anyone and may unknowingly give poor advice.
I could easily lie about my name, experience or jump numbers. If you asked a question 'I'm having trouble going forwards in high winds - help!" I might reply in several ways:

1) Strap on 20 pounds of lead.
2) Fly a smaller canopy.
3) Don't jump in high winds.
4) Use your front risers.
5) Use your rear risers.
6) Fly close behind another canopy to draft them.
7) Curl up in a ball to make yourself smaller.

Some of these answers are simply wrong. Others are wrong for your experience level. Others are right.

I might not read your profile if I'm in a rush and give advice that isn't suitable. I might simply be regurgitating stuff I've heard or read without checking to see if it's true - there's a lot of bullshit on these forums! ;)

How would you know, with your experience, which are which?

You shouldn't be afraid to post here. You should be very very cautious about using it as a source of information over your instructors.

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"I lack the ability to request a gear check"



pfft. You don't lack the ability to ask anything. You lack the confidence maybe, but that's a different issue.

Look, in skydiving this axiom is truer than almost anywhere else - "there ARE no stupid questions". Look at the explanation of the forum you're posting in: "There is a direct relationship between your knowledge, skill and attitude and skydiving safety." Never, never be afraid to ask something of your instructors. It may well keep you alive.

However, know WHO you're asking and whether you should trust their advice. On the internet posters can be anyone and may unknowingly give poor advice.
I could easily lie about my name, experience or jump numbers. If you asked a question 'I'm having trouble going forwards in high winds - help!" I might reply in several ways:

1) Strap on 20 pounds of lead.
2) Fly a smaller canopy.
3) Don't jump in high winds.
4) Use your front risers.
5) Use your rear risers.
6) Fly close behind another canopy to draft them.
7) Curl up in a ball to make yourself smaller.

Some of these answers are simply wrong. Others are wrong for your experience level. Others are right.

I might not read your profile if I'm in a rush and give advice that isn't suitable. I might simply be regurgitating stuff I've heard or read without checking to see if it's true - there's a lot of bullshit on these forums! ;)

How would you know, with your experience, which are which?

You shouldn't be afraid to post here. You should be very very cautious about using it as a source of information over your instructors.

O....M....G
One of the best posts about asking and advice I've ever read.
Thank you!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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And should someone on here tell me to go and stick my hand in the fire, I'm going to do it aren't I?




*assuming you're being sarcastic?

I'd hope not, because you know that's stupid and dangerous.

My post wasn't to suggest you're an idiot who would blindly follow dangerous advice, but the truth is that you know virtually nothing about skydiving yet, even if you believe otherwise.
You don't know what is good advice and bad advice and therefore might get into trouble because you simply don't have the knowledge or experience to make that distinction. Some are obvious - others aren't.


However, feel free to ignore everything I said and use DZ.com as a fantastic resource. It's no skin off my nose. I've survived a decade doing it, and am pretty sure I'll survive another even if you ignore my advice. Hopefully you'll be able to say the same.

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And should someone on here tell me to go and stick my hand in the fire, I'm going to do it aren't I?.



I don't know. I certainly hope not.
You'd be amazed at how many youngsters would....which is the basis of the post.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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