tat2guy 0
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I've personally had no bad experiences with BM. In fact I've written Jari about the good customer service his girls, Kim#1 and later Kim #2 performed......... But that was over 4 years ago and about the last suit I bought from them which was about one a year to that point.
Since then there have been many changes at BM. There have been more than a few reported very long delays in manufacturing / shipping. In one case it was over a year?
Its not just BM that has an occasional missed sized suit, its happened with PF suits too. What is important is how the company moves to rectify the situation and that the deal can be made whole.
Brand wars aside I believe that if you are having a problem with a manufacturer you should be free to express it and warn potential buyers, likewise if you love the deal you got and the service, let the rest of us know about it. Let the boss at the top know too.
Douglas hasn't attacked BM or been caustic to them in these forums even though he has the right to. He logged his experience on his website.... big difference.
Since then there have been many changes at BM. There have been more than a few reported very long delays in manufacturing / shipping. In one case it was over a year?
Its not just BM that has an occasional missed sized suit, its happened with PF suits too. What is important is how the company moves to rectify the situation and that the deal can be made whole.
Brand wars aside I believe that if you are having a problem with a manufacturer you should be free to express it and warn potential buyers, likewise if you love the deal you got and the service, let the rest of us know about it. Let the boss at the top know too.
Douglas hasn't attacked BM or been caustic to them in these forums even though he has the right to. He logged his experience on his website.... big difference.
RJmoney 0
i'd correct you and say we have to let our brothers and sisters know, but there aren't enough women that wingsuit.
dear female wingsuiters: please feel free to lash out at me with your phone numbers.
dear female wingsuiters: please feel free to lash out at me with your phone numbers.
word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117
RJ$$
BASE 1117
What you haven't heard of the sock method?....... it works for me. It must be lonely in Montana.
Zeemax 0
Quotei have a little over 50 jumps on my bm gti, and im looking to buy a new suit. ive been looking at either the blade from bm or the raptor or m1 from tony suits.im looking for input from people who have maybe jumped both or all of these suits. thanks
Firstly, please note, i'm not trying to be the 'no' police here...
Secondly...
I think you should also consider some of the mid range suits. This is not directed at you, but i've seen way to often people go straight for the big 'all singing, all dancing' suit at the top of the power range because they feel they have to.
Generally at the
1) They throw the suit in their gear bag deciding wingsuiting is not for them.
2) They keep trying to fly the suit, but suck at it and end up falling out of every formation they're in, or, just 'zoom' around it.
I'm not saying this is you, but, if wingsuiting is not going to be your primary discipline, look at suits in the middle. These will still offer GREAT performance, and be a little more forgiving of a slightly poorer body position gained from not regularly flying the suit.
Also, you mention you're on a DZ where you're the only wingsuiter? If you really want to get into wingsuiting, try to make trips to DZ's where there are other experienced wingsuit pilots. Try and do as many 2 / 3 ways as you can.
This is where you'll really learn how to fly your body relative to others, with skills which can obvioulsy be transferred to your solo flying.
Stay safe
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies
Generally at the
That was the common thought several years ago. Mostly perpetuated by instructors that feared some fresh nugget would out fly them in a suit of equal potential but with way fewer jumps experience.
Some people fly bigger suits well due to sheer luck, spill over skills from other disciplines or just being a natural athlete. Some people struggle with everything. Whether or not you are ready for a big suit when you fly mostly by yourself is going to be difficult to evaluate. But flying along doing hundreds of solos in a vacuum to fulfill some jump numbers is no guarantee that you will ever get better at it, or ready for the bigger stuff. The concept would be similar to doing 4-way by yourself until you think you are ready for the real big booties.
To get better at 4 way you need to jump with others. To get better at wingsuit formations you need to fly with others as soon as possible and challenge each other. Getting to the challenging ( and did I mention fun?) flocks is where you get better. People with hundreds of wingsuit solos, regardless of suit, haven't impressed anybody. Forget the free fall times, gPS tracking etc. and just get to the flocks that are popping up all over.
Can you have too much suit too soon? Sure! More than you need? Most of the time, yup! Do people fixate on getting more wing instead of learning to fly their hips ? Yes very common fault of most of us. But when you get to the flocks you can evaluate or get evaluated to see what you need or don't need. Usually try some various products. Learn from others, learn from coaches and did I mention have fun?
Nothing wrong with getting more suit @ 50 jumps, unless you suck, but flocking can fix that and you'll have fun
Quote2) They keep trying to fly the suit, but suck at it and end up falling out of every formation they're in, or, just 'zoom' around it.
How to keep them back? Some instructor even borrow a BM Tengu to a hotshot with less than 15 flight.
I have seen FFCs with S3 and S3S and several new birds are ordering Blades as first suite.
Zeemax 0
Quote
Generally at the
That was the common thought several years ago. Mostly perpetuated by instructors that feared some fresh nugget would out fly them in a suit of equal potential but with way fewer jumps experience.
I really don't care if people outfly me, as long they do it in a safe manner and don't nearly kill me in the sky!
I personally don't think buying a big suit is a great idea if you're not going to jump it regularly, or are only ever going to do solos.
Not just because of the implications of being uncurrent with bigger wings, but more just because of the lost enjoyment.
Mid range suits exist for a reason
QuoteCan you have too much suit too soon? Sure! More than you need? Most of the time, yup! Do people fixate on getting more wing instead of learning to fly their hips ?
Very much, totally agree!
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies
Mid range suits exist for a reason
The top range suits are still only mid range suits with a less than top range pilot. The blade and the raptor are mid range suits. If the OP is a skinny build and an descent flyer his GTI is already a mid range suit.
Trae 1
in reply to "I think I've talked to you a few times on here. You say you are a new wingsuiter and your profile indicates you just started skydiving. And yet on your homepage you caustically attack Birdman in a rather exaggerated way. If you have a problem with them, you should talk to them in person-why publically flame them? Birdman practically invented wingsuit flying and the best teams in the world fly Birdman. The majority of people who fly wingsuits have respect for Birdman. I have a read a few of your posts that were trying to push people away from Birdman. Try not have such a loud mouth about things you may not know everything about. "
.....................................................
Try not to .........puke.
Birdman practically invented wingsuits??????
This just shows a complete disregard of history.
as far as I can recall BM was the original company selling the first COMMERCIALLY available wingsuit before the company split into BM and Phoenix Fly.
The creative genius going with Phoenix and the copy-cat social-butterflies staying as Birdman.
I'm happy with my wingsuits from Birdman AND PhoenixFly but that doesn't blind me to a few things.
The guys still running Phoenix are the ones that invented their thing if any-one did.
From the outside it looks like BM just ran off with some-one elses design...and from my point of view BM have provided very little in the way of original innovation since the split.
Still their suits fly almost as good as some. (gasp..... opinions
)
Hanging with a BM flock is very different from flying with a Phoenix Fly crew.
The BM flocks might be a little friendlier but the Phoenix Fly flocks get up and GO !
It just seems like the PhoenixFliers are more about the actual flying and use their wingsuiting a little bit less as a social tool at the bar.
haven't experienced a Tony flock yet but I'm sure it has it's own flavour as well.
It's a fantastic thing that Tony Suits are continueing to provide innovation and advancement not just rehashing and forcefeeding some-one else design.
Wingsuit wars ?? let 'em fight it out ...what a storm in a teacup that'd be.
Birdman practically invented wingsuits??????
This just shows a complete disregard of history.
as far as I can recall BM was the original company selling the first COMMERCIALLY available wingsuit before the company split into BM and Phoenix Fly.
Well lets not forget "that" french guy, whats his name ?!
? ,selling commercially available wingsuits through parasport and then soloman. Which leads to the question : Classic or the crossbow, which came first? Add for a laugh that the " best teams in the world fly BM" statement. If I remember correctly at the world meet for wingsuiting weren't all those teams tied for second.
Here is my FACTUAL experience with wingsuit manufacturers so far:
My first wingsuit was a Birdman Firebird ordered in September 2005 and not delivered until January 2006; 5 months later. 25 jumps later seams were blowing out of the arm and leg wings. Birdman made good on it, sent me the matching fabric and requested that I send them the rigger bill. I figured that sending the bill to Birdman was too much hassle. I had to search for a rigger who was competent, qualified, and confident to work on a wingsuit. Wayne in Casa Grande, AZ was up to the task. By the time he was done he could not ask me for all the money to cover his time in tearing apart the suit; so I paid $200. By Christmas 2007 my Firebird had more seams busting out. It has been patched so many times it has no resale value whatsoever. It has more value bringing people into the joy of wingsuiting as a demo suit. So I keep it around and make it available for others to fly.
At the Eloy Christmas 2007 boogie I ordered a Birdman Blade in PARAPACK for better durability and was measured in metric by Scott Campos. I recieved my Blade late February 2008. With 50 jumps my Blade does not show the workmanship flaws that my Firebird had. I am happy with my Blade both performance wise and quality wise. I did not have the same delivery, sizing, and quality issues that DSE had with Birdman. DSE has documented these issues in a factual manner.
If I need any kind of product repair or upgrade to my Birdman product I have TWO choices:
1.) Take my suit to a local rigger for a fix and hope he can do it right and be reasonable in the charge.
or
2.) Ship my Blade off to Europe for repair, and deal with the wait, shipping, customs, and difficult communications due to language and time zones.
This past weekend I bought a used and well taken care of Tony Suit Super Mach 1 with a "back up" zipper system for wing cutaway. If I need to have my suit repaired or there is an upgrade available I do the following:
1.) Overnight the suit to Tony in Florida for less than $20.00 UPS.
2.) Have the suit in the hands of the factory guys as opposed to finding a rigger willing to do a job on something he may not be familiar with , end results uncertain, and a bill to be paid at the end.
3.) Pick up the phone and speak in English with somebody only 2 hours away.
4.) Have my suit turned around in under 2 weeks, delivered to me via UPS overnight, without jacking around with customs or overseas shipments.
.........and now my OPINION:
For the $900 plus shipping and customs I was very dissappointed with what happened with my Firebird. Oh yeah and every jumper at Eloy saw what happened with the suit; and my explanations.
At the Chicks Rock Boogie in the fall of 2007 I was ready to go with a Tony Suit Super Mach 1 after looking at the quality of workmanship and domestic U.S. service available.
However, Birdman got the Blade order for three reasons; Tony suits had not made a cutaway system/ riser access system for the Super Mach that I felt comfortable, sales service and my friendship with Scott Campos, and I wanted to give the "original wingsuit maker" one last chance.
At that point in time if Tony would have had the same kind of cutaway system that Birdman and Phoenix had that I was familiar and comfortable with the local domestic U.S. manufacturing service would have outweighed my personal loyalty to Birdman.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
My opinion on Phoenix Fly is NEUTRAL. But my Firebird experience from Birdman made me very wary from buying another wingsuit that is manufactured over in Europe without any domestic U.S. product factory repair support.
I have some very nice expensive toys in my toybox; guns, cameras, parachutes, etc. As a skydiver I have no price objections. I want quality, service, and I'm willing to pay for it....but when I pay top dollar a manufacturer had better come through on the quality and service I expect for the price that is asked.
if you dont mind me asking what was your experiance with bm that was so bad. it sounds like you have voiced it befor but i havent heard about it.
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