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rmahoney

Caravan Tail Strike

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people don't override their training. when stressed they revert to it more strongly.



The way I understand his point is illustrated by the low emergency exit. If you have deployed your main a thousand times and then suddenly have a low emergency exit where you should deploy your reserve, there is a good chance that you are going to throw your main's pilot chute instead.



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Not sure how to make it a link but this vid is amazingly scary to me. Why take the Skyvan to altitude when clearly you can take a wingsuit :P


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Am-Z-Dyrtkk



How to make the clicky thing:

Step 1. place [Xurl] in front of the link, but take out the X

Step 2. place [X/url] behind the link, but take out the X

There are also buttons at the bottom of the message edit screen. For this, place the cursor in front of the typed link, click the [u rl] button, then place the cursor at the end of the link and then click the [/u rl] button.

Instant clicky.

;)
WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

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I'm not sure i agree with that.

If i'm leaving an aircraft in an emergency situation, at an altitude that dictates I use my reserve as my primary canopy... I'm leaving with my hand firmly on my reserve handle ready to go!
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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I'm not sure i agree with that.

If i'm leaving an aircraft in an emergency situation, at an altitude that dictates I use my reserve as my primary canopy... I'm leaving with my hand firmly on my reserve handle ready to go!



I agree 100%
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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But when it comes to a low jump run because of clouds, and there's no further climbing, where's the operational point of a high power, high speed jump run?



You are totally correct. Although I am NOT placing any of the blame for my strike on anyone but myself, it does illustrate the obvious need for some SOP regrding speeds/attitudes for lower-altitude jump runs in the Caravan. There is no reason why we can't slow down a bit when dropping jumpers low. Again, that complacency thing.....



Have you confirmed with that pilot that this actually happened? You said you started to close the door; perhaps the pilot saw this and increased the power thinking you were not getting out?
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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well yeah that would be the smart thing to do, and how you would exit low. but it doesn't refute the point that when stressed people are going to rely on reflexes not thinking.

but HYPOTHETICALLY say you woke up out of a dream or something and were falling through the air with a rig on your back and your first though is, "holy crap i need to pull!" i bet most people reach back and flick out their main cuz thats what people to do stop the skydive.
word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117

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people don't override their training. when stressed they revert to it more strongly.



The way I understand his point is illustrated by the low emergency exit. If you have deployed your main a thousand times and then suddenly have a low emergency exit where you should deploy your reserve, there is a good chance that you are going to throw your main's pilot chute instead.




Thansk for summing it up better than me.

The example I can think of was I had a nasty spinner that I had to chop and I suspected that I was going to be ass over teakettle once I cutaway. It was a demo canopy so I'd opened higher than normal, and I repeatedly told myself I was going to use that extra altitude to take a few seconds after cutaway to get stable before I pulled silver. I chopped and as I was flung away I looked down at the reserve ripcord in my left hand, wondering how it had gotten there.


-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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Have you confirmed with that pilot that this actually happened? You said you started to close the door; perhaps the pilot saw this and increased the power thinking you were not getting out?



I did confirm this; the pilot made no changes to power, altitude or attitude until after I exited. It is just that - until now - we have not had the pilot reduce power and airspeed for lower-altitude passes. It is clear that we need to totally re-think this, as it puts jumpers too close to the tail.

BTW, some newer brusies for those who are medically inclined: http://www.barkbarkbark.com/almours/
ATP B-737, B757, B-767, L-188, FK-28, AMEL, Commercial Privileges ASEL, F/E Turbojet

"Learning is not compulsory; neither is survival."

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It is clear that we need to totally re-think this, as it puts jumpers too close to the tail.



For me it's abundantly clear that a competent WS pilot can open the door, feel the wind on his face and exit accordingly and appropriately in a wide range of jumpship speeds, not hitting the tale and not relying on the pilot to be dialed in to any specific speed (who might need a bit of added speed for controllability).
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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For me it's abundantly clear that a competent WS pilot can open the door, feel the wind on his face and exit accordingly and appropriately in a wide range of jumpship speeds, not hitting the tale and not relying on the pilot to be dialed in to any specific speed (who might need a bit of added speed for controllability).



Uh.... I can speak to this and I do not agreee with you.

First of all, we drop jumpers of all skill levels, not just "competent" wing suit pilots. Even competent pilots sometimes make mistakes. It is just that a small operational change, such as reducing airsspeed for lower-altitude drops, is reasonable, safe, and may prevent further mishaps. It increases safety-of-operation without compromising utility or cost. Only cost is about 30-90 seconds of extra flight time, well worth it IMHO.

And controlability is not a factor in reducing speed appropriately for low-altitude drops. I think I can say this with some experience in this area.

-Doc (ATP AMEL, B-727, B-737, B-757, B-767, FK-28, L-282, Commercial priviliges ASEL)
ATP B-737, B757, B-767, L-188, FK-28, AMEL, Commercial Privileges ASEL, F/E Turbojet

"Learning is not compulsory; neither is survival."

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I've tried to break this down into small pieces. If it's still not understandable please accept my apologies due to my limited patience which renders me unable clarify this anymore beyond this post:

30-90 seconds of extra flight time is a utility (I find it useful), and since you're giving that up it's alot like a cost; giving something up (compromising) in exchange for safety-of-operation. Alot like if you give up time and energy to gain competence, which would increase safety-of-operation, for example.
Controllability is a factor in how far you can slow a jumpship, but it's OK that you disagree.
If it was me I wouldn't have chosen to reveal (throw under the bus) all those privileges and credentials in the same thread where I confessed to almost negligently killing several innocent tandems, but OK, I agree that we disagree on that also.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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If it was me I wouldn't have chosen to reveal (throw under the bus) all those privileges and credentials in the same thread where I confessed to almost negligently killing several innocent tandems, but OK, I agree that we disagree on that also.



Tony, you are not me.

I put some of my aeronautical credentials in to explain that I fully understood the implications of a reduction in airspeed for low passes. There is another purpose:

The reason I started this thread was to describe a very serious incident that I was responsible for. Particularly with such aircraft experience, I should have known better. Dumb mistake. I won't make it again. But how about those fellow wingsuiters, many with much more jump experience, who might fall into the same trap of complacency and familiarity that I did? I want to give them an opportunity to learn from my mistake.

Perhaps you are correct that you would not have revelaed the credentials. That's you, this is me: I did it to further emphasize that, regardless of competence and experience, one can make a dumb error. The point is that we all learn from this, and, if necessary, revise procedures or operations to reduce the chances of similar occurences in the future. Reduction in airspeed to the same airspeed we use to drop at altitude is an appropriate action.
ATP B-737, B757, B-767, L-188, FK-28, AMEL, Commercial Privileges ASEL, F/E Turbojet

"Learning is not compulsory; neither is survival."

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Randy made the desion to post the details of this incident to share what happened to him and what he learned from it.

If you posess nothing more than the "limited patience" to communicate in such a way that you come off as arrogant and high-handed, maybe you should check out a few different courses in college.

Randy did not trot out his background and credentials until he felt it necessary to defend his post, and shed some light on his aviation background.
And to prove that he may know a thing or two about what he is talking about.

Randy is one of the most heads-up, safety minded people I have met in this sport in a long time.

NOTHING he did was negligent.

Period.

But, I guess the ability to walk on water and rise from the dead gives you a much more enlightened view of the world in general that us mindless apes, wandering around down here living in caves all scared of the sun and shit.


Ralph Nichols

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Lets try and not lose sight of what the message in all of this is...... complacency can kill/injure and yes it can happen to you. Lets be safe out there and not learn the hard way.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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That is the intintion and spirit of not only Randy's post, but my reply as well.


It went from how we can be safer, to how incompetent Randy is.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

I felt the need to weigh in against a world class expert with a couple of years and a few hundred jumps experience that was attempting to direct the thread away from Randy's original post about how to NOT find yourself in his situation.


peace

ralph

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What I don't understand about this is how if you delayed deployment of your wings for one second you were anywhere near the tail. you should have fallen about eight feet below your exit point in that time, unless you jumped up on exit. I also think the deceleration in the horizontal direction on exit would have put you behind the tail at one second, especially with a higher than normal exit speed.
I guess what I am saying is that our perception of one second can be way off, so don't be in a hurry to deploy the wings.

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