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crashtested

Deaths and wingsuits

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If you think wingsuits cannot be dangerous, take a look at the incident rate of BASE wingsuit jumps vs "regular" BASE jumps.



But most of those involve trying to out fly the terrain. An otherwise perfectly stable flight without enough clearance. Just not enough glide angle to deploy safely.



That's often the case with "regular" BASE incidents too no?




To my knowledge there havent been a ton of "not being able to outfly the terrain" issues. Some problems that occur is pilot chute towing in the burble when you are already pulling low, and a lack of ground rush as in normal base jumps causing the jumper to pull too low.

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To my knowledge there havent been a ton of "not being able to outfly the terrain" issues. Some problems that occur is pilot chute towing in the burble when you are already pulling low, and a lack of ground rush as in normal base jumps causing the jumper to pull too low.



Right off the top of my head I can think of three WS/base Fatalities that fit the outfly discription. But there hasn't been a ton total, just too many.

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So i don't have to start another thread do you and other wingstuiters think you get less or more problems or mals when deploying your main with wings on or off?
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No question in my mind that line twists are more common and harder to resolve on wingsuit jumps. That's one reason that high performance canopies are not generally reccommended when wingsuiting. It is also a reason that wingsuiting isn't advised for low-timers. Line twists can become spinners/unrecoverable spinners more easily on a wingsuit and on HP canopies. Using a tamer canopy and having more experience can help keep problems from becoming incidents. YMMV

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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Not as many times as I've eaten him. I might get bit less often if I didn't tease him so much though. :$ And I haven't flight tested a PDR for almost two years. But my (for the record four) wingsuit choppers do give me some qualification for my previous remarks.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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It seems pretty common now to see people in wingsuits below 200 jumps and I've heard of a few starting below 100 jumps. Hopefully these people don't start pounding it in or striking tandems.



you mean, like sub-80!? i wonder who would do that.. :$:)
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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It seems pretty common now to see people in wingsuits below 200 jumps and I've heard of a few starting below 100 jumps. Hopefully these people don't start pounding it in or striking tandems.



There is already a lot of discussion about jump numbers and WS, but I think that there is a new factor that deserves to be heard. The Tony Intro suit allows a faster path into wingsuits because of it's revolutionary design. I have no problem waiting to fly a more advanced suit, and do not argue with the 200 jump number for them, at least for myself.
I will try and make my case with one picture. I have attached one that is me recovering from a flat spin. I did not have to release anything, I just did it. By closing the leg and putting out my hands, the suit became something other than a wingsuit. Once I got it together, I went back to flying.
I was a taking a chance when I made my first flights, however, if you haven't ever done it, you will be too, and I don't care how many jumps you have. The only way to learn to fly is to jump out and do it, hopefully learning what you need to before it gets you. If you have thousands of jumps you may be a good pilot right away, or you may have a harder time than I did. If you are wearing the wrong suit, and haven't properly trained for the WS, you will be more of a hazard than I was.
I am the first to admit that I have a lot to learn. My landings are still not always great, for example, but what does that have to do with WS? I need a lot of landings; I will get them after wing flights. All that is required of that portion of the dive is not hitting anything, and making a good pull. After that, it is no different than any other skydive. Again I will note that this suit allows me to reach the controls without unzipping.
There is also the matter of WS instructors to think about. Obviously they sometimes think someone is ready with less than 200, so does that make them irresponsible? I say no, and that the decision should be based on more than just numbers.
But what do I know?

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, but I think that there is a new factor that deserves to be heard. The Tony Intro suit allows a faster path into wingsuits because of it's revolutionary design.



Really? Take a look on the prodigy from Phoenix-Fly.....very old suit, works similar.

But i think the days with 200 jumps rule are over, no matter what should be common sense.
The next years will show us, if self regulated works.

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It seems pretty common now to see people in wingsuits below 200 jumps and I've heard of a few starting below 100 jumps. Hopefully these people don't start pounding it in or striking tandems.



There is already a lot of discussion about jump numbers and WS, but I think that there is a new factor that deserves to be heard. The Tony Intro suit allows a faster path into wingsuits because of it's revolutionary design. I have no problem waiting to fly a more advanced suit, and do not argue with the 200 jump number for them, at least for myself.
I will try and make my case with one picture. I have attached one that is me recovering from a flat spin. I did not have to release anything, I just did it. By closing the leg and putting out my hands, the suit became something other than a wingsuit. Once I got it together, I went back to flying.
I was a taking a chance when I made my first flights, however, if you haven't ever done it, you will be too, and I don't care how many jumps you have. The only way to learn to fly is to jump out and do it, hopefully learning what you need to before it gets you. If you have thousands of jumps you may be a good pilot right away, or you may have a harder time than I did. If you are wearing the wrong suit, and haven't properly trained for the WS, you will be more of a hazard than I was.
I am the first to admit that I have a lot to learn. My landings are still not always great, for example, but what does that have to do with WS? I need a lot of landings; I will get them after wing flights. All that is required of that portion of the dive is not hitting anything, and making a good pull. After that, it is no different than any other skydive. Again I will note that this suit allows me to reach the controls without unzipping.
There is also the matter of WS instructors to think about. Obviously they sometimes think someone is ready with less than 200, so does that make them irresponsible? I say no, and that the decision should be based on more than just numbers.

I think this is a really cool example of skills vs numbers, and how rules do not work for everyone... Obviously there needs to be structure in place, but there also needs to be times when people who progress faster are allowed (under the right supervision / with the right training), to just get on with it.

The argument can be with 200 jumps or 600 hundred jumps you will have gained more experiance, therefore you have now qualified to level XX, therefore you can now do this.
What if this person has 199 truely awful jumps, is still not standing up landings, does not follow flight line, etc etc, vs a person with say 96 jumps :P who has jumped well and consistenlty on every jump And has the skills to progress onwards. (apart from there 2nd when they lost there primary and 2ndry instructors And was then caught laughing aloud when they eventually caught back up with him)

The jump numbers thing has always frustrated me a bit, as you could make so many jumps on your belly, possibly out of control for 200 jumps, then be given a wingsuit?? it does not make sense.

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The jump numbers thing has always frustrated me a bit



200 jumps is nothing in terms of jump numbers to anyone SERIOUS about learning to skydive and/or fly a wingsuit..
If it takes soo much effort to rack up the tiny-weeny required 200 jumps, and you need to cut corners to be able to do something shouldnt be doing yet...then what should convince me that sayd person will THEN do suddenly start investing time in properly learning to fly?

You're on this planet for more then 1 day...try and use that time you have in a sensible way, and take the time to properly learn and experience things instead of rushing through them...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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The jump numbers thing has always frustrated me a bit



You're on this planet for more then 1 day...try and use that time you have in a sensible way, and take the time to properly learn and experience things instead of rushing through them...


Life Ain't No Dress Rehearsal.. could get hit by a bus, or by some crazy guy in a wingsuit!!B|;)

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Life Ain't No Dress Rehearsal



Its not a dress rehearsal...its part of the road you travel...
You just skipped to the end desitination in a half-assed maner...B|

But your naive 'insight' is pretty common among people who don't meet and (thus) don't agree with the rules and regulations made for safetyB|
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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My only problem with your argument is that I don't think wingsuits are just about flying the suits.

You need to be very comfortable with packing, openings, etc since the suit complicates that. You need to be very heads up with traffic patterns. And since you're pretty much landing at the same time tandems and students are, you need to be a confident canopy pilot.

I saw one low jump wingsuit student cut off a tandem on landing because he didn't understand how and where tandems land. I've also been on flights with inexperienced jumpers and hand to take lead because they were going into tandem airspace.

Knowing and navigating the airspace can be tricky. Sometimes you won't have good visibility of the ground and may have to fly a pattern semi-blind.

I just think there's a big diff in that type of knowledge between someone with 100 and 200 jumps.

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Really? Take a look on the prodigy from Phoenix-Fly.....very old suit, works similar.



You are right, it is similar. Since the wing does attach at the waist and has a cutaway, I thought it was not as easy, but it does allow a lot of arm motion, even with the wing attached. I have heard from other fliers that it is not an easy suit to fly, but I'm sure there are differing opinions on that. The thing is that there is a lot of difference between suits, and I think that should be taken into account, along with an assessment of the prospective WS candidate's skills, experience, and training.
But what do I know?

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You are thinking in a very one dimensional way still.
The disscusion is not just about people who could have the skills to jump with wingsuits at low jump numbers, its about the people who do have the numbers but don't have the skills to do so yet are allowed to jump. be it on high p canopys wing suits or with cameras

At your jump numbers i would have though you would be able to see and recognise that side of the discussion!!!:o:P:P

The basic idea of progression in skydiving i understand. but the all important skill factor is missed out at so many different levels in this Jump # related sport unless you are willing to invest money on A-class training.

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actually you are the person with a one-dimensional argument here


Whereas skill is important in this 'sport' and certainly the minimum requirements of X jump numbers before you progress to some activities, does not mean that everyone with those numbers will be ready!

It is commonplace for people with those numbers but without the requisite skills to be told what they need to improve before being allowed to take on additional risks.

What will keep you uninjured and alive longer in this 'sport' is not skills, but mainly judgement, which is largely derived from experience.

You can be very naturally talented as far as skills go and honing skills faster, but good judgement is much rarer and more difficult and slow to develop.

This is why minimum jump number requirements make sense. They are not there mainly for the skills, they are there mainly for the judgement.

It's funny how the people who argue MadSkillz are a good substitute for experience (and therefore implied judgement) are all so similar.

I hope you fix this way of thinking before you act on your stated interest in basejumping....

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The jump numbers thing has always frustrated me a bit, as you could make so many jumps on your belly, possibly out of control for 200 jumps, then be given a wingsuit?? it does not make sense.



I argee, which is exactly why I'll never just hand someone with the "magic number" a wingsuit. In my program I always access the knowledge and flying ability of the jumper that wants to fly a suit, regardless of jump numbers. A briefing and "mock wingsuit" jump tells me almost everything I need to know, as to whether they are ready to fly a wingsuit or not. If they fail to pass the basics on the "mock" jump, I make recommendations on what to work on and do not put them in a wingsuit.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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but the all important skill factor is missed out at so many different levels in this Jump # related sport



I think what a lot of people are missing is that the jumper numbers generally quoted, are what is deemed the minimum experience needed to safely do so.

This doesn't mean having a certain amount of jumps will always mean someone is skilled/experienced enough to do so.
Far from it..

But taking the low experienced skydivers out (who are way impressed with their own close to superman-ability to quickly 'get things', brag about being 'ahead of the curve' yet will later, when they have more experience, almost always agree they where naive, ill-informed and low skilled at the time) means you have at least some bit of experience where the person COULD have gathered the essential skills needed.

The 'skill factor' you talk about is one that is roughly present in the current jump limit. Though what you do in those 200 jumps (and how quickly you learn things) determines for a large factor IF you will be ready.

Navigation, reaction time, and in case of flocking, experience in flying with others, judging and reacting on approach speeds, and general awareness are all things severely lacking at low jump numbers.

Unless there is a huge sum on tunnelhours (thus freefall related experience) present, its mostly naive thinking on your behalf...but you are liable to get one of the famous "Im such a rebel!" stickers if you want one..B|
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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actually you are the person with a one-dimensional argument here

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One dimensional argument, surley by me putting more than one point across makes that 2 dimensional
"wikipedia" is our friend

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Whereas skill is important in this 'sport' and certainly the minimum requirements of X jump numbers before you progress to some activities, does not mean that everyone with those numbers will be ready!

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Though you could have good or bad judgement as a person, will you still take somone up with the right numbers? despite them spiraling in on a flight line 1 week earlier unbeknown to yourself.

but i understand your point, a combination is needed of everything we have disscussed, be it skills, judgment, abilility, ( jump numbers not so much):P

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I hope you fix this way of thinking before you act on your stated interest in basejumping....

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Only becasue i can tell you love me a little and worry.
I have already acted on my intrest for base jumping, 2 canopy courses, 2 crw courses, 2 packing courses, ground crewing for other b jumpers to gain knowledge on all aspects.

I thought it might be a good start;)

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My only problem with your argument is that I don't think wingsuits are just about flying the suits.

You need to be very comfortable with packing, openings, etc since the suit complicates that. You need to be very heads up with traffic patterns. And since you're pretty much landing at the same time tandems and students are, you need to be a confident canopy pilot.

I saw one low jump wingsuit student cut off a tandem on landing because he didn't understand how and where tandems land. I've also been on flights with inexperienced jumpers and hand to take lead because they were going into tandem airspace.

Knowing and navigating the airspace can be tricky. Sometimes you won't have good visibility of the ground and may have to fly a pattern semi-blind.

I just think there's a big diff in that type of knowledge between someone with 100 and 200 jumps.




You make very good points, and I agree that the more jumps the better able to handle those issues. I do not feel confident that I can safely fly in all situations yet, and will not try. I need clear conditions so I can see the DZ at all times. I need to be at a place I'm totally comfortable with as far as where the safe areas are for flying and deploying, or else be with someone who will keep me straight. I need to land every time without causing problems for anyone else, particularly tandems. I know I have a lot to learn, and will try and learn it while staying within my limitations. I do not expect to learn it all in 12 jumps, but then I will have 200. I will not be immune from dumb mistakes then, or if I make 10,000 more. I'll be trying real hard not to make any on every jump, just like we all do. Good luck and blue skies to everybody.
But what do I know?

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The jump numbers thing has always frustrated me a bit, as you could make so many jumps on your belly, possibly out of control for 200 jumps, then be given a wingsuit?? it does not make sense.



I argee, which is exactly why I'll never just hand someone with the "magic number" a wingsuit. In my program I always access the knowledge and flying ability of the jumper that wants to fly a suit, regardless of jump numbers. A briefing and "mock wingsuit" jump tells me almost everything I need to know, as to whether they are ready to fly a wingsuit or not. If they fail to pass the basics on the "mock" jump, I make recommendations on what to work on and do not put them in a wingsuit.


Having been one of, and known many of eds students, I think this teaching practice is the way to go. The "mock" jump takes away some of that gray area between how many jumps the student has, and their actual skill level. I just like to think too, if you arent nervous on your first WS jump, you might not be ready to jump a WS. ;)

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I Always do mock jumps with students, sometimes more than one, it is amazing to hear how cool and skilled people think they are on the ground and then see they suck on the mock jump, sometimes its the quiet nervous ones who suprise you and really smoke the mock jump too, for me it's an important stepping stone and I always insist on at least one mock jump. Why do anythiing else??

D

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A briefing and "mock wingsuit" jump tells me almost everything I need to know, as to whether they are ready to fly a wingsuit or not. If they fail to pass the basics on the "mock" jump, I make recommendations on what to work on and do not put them in a wingsuit.


I am really curious about this 'mock jump'. What is it that you actually have the student do?
"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

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I am really curious about this 'mock jump'. What is it that you actually have the student do?



The mock jump is flying just as if you had a wingsuit on. Proper exit techinque, body positioning, flight pattern, practice touches and proper deployment position. I even have them simulating unzipping and and canopy control, all above their personal hard deck. After I debrief this mock jump with them, most feel less nervous putting on the wingsuit.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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