Deaths and wingsuits

[crashtested 0]

Heres a good one.. as always i'm trying to keep my options open with the direction 's that i want to go in with this sport.

I was looking at the ammount of incidents that occured when people were using wingsuits.

The numbers are super low. more low than they should be % wise.

Why is this.

Is it due to the experiance and jump numbers needed to participate, meaning only good skydivers get into it who have better than avarge skills?

Is it due to the way the canopy is deployed i.e more horizontal than us vertical deployers?

Is it just luck?

Or is it due to a better training system?

I tend to over analyze things but would be intrested to others thoughts on the matter!!
Or am i wrong about the ammount of inccidents?

[vesatoro 0]

Just my thoughts

1. People getting to (and doing) wingsuiting might be more experienced and (or) current than average skydivers.
2. People flying wingsuits tend to use canopies that give fairly concervative wingloadings and good opening charasteristics, which may reduce the chance of accidents under canopy and during landings.
3. In many cases ws jumpers jump last, fly to where they want to open, open last (and often higher) which gives time, altitude and space to fly to landing zone safely.

Vesa

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[ScottGray 0]

A significant number of death and injuries in recent years have been related to low / agressive turns.

While there are some wingsuit pilots that finish off their skydive with a swoop, most are in it for the wingsuit flight itself.

In addition, on average the canopies are larger and more forgiving.

Agree to the other points made here as well.

In addition, the community is small, safety issues are discussed and addressed in realtime, granted not always to everyones satisfaction --- but I do feel there is a take care of each other approach.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[NSEMN8R 0]

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The numbers are super low. more low than they should be % wise.

Why do you say that? USPA says 18 in '07. I can only remember 1 that was a wingsuiter, but 1 in 18 seems pretty high % wise. I doubt 1 in 18 skydives made in the US were ws. Probably more like one in every few hundred.

[DSE 3]

I'd suggest you are overanalyzing. Or perhaps you have misconceptions of the discipline. I've met people who have labeled wingsuits as "deathtraps" but that's only because they remember wingsuits from PdG's death, "Gypsy Moths" or maybe the very early history of flying with wings (nearly every pilot died in the very early days). In other words, they're ill-informed.

I would submit the specifics you were given as to why wingsuits don't have higher incident #'s are correct. FWIW, I'd never suggest that I have "above average" skills. But I surely do enjoy wingsuiting.

[DougH 270]

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Heres a good one.. as always i'm trying to keep my options open with the direction 's that i want to go in with this sport.

This thread goes great with your downsizing thread! Are you planning on getting a wingsuit to balance out the risks of your canopy selection?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[VectorBoy 0]

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I was looking at the ammount of incidents that occured when people were using wingsuits.

The numbers are super low. more low than they should be % wise.

Why is this?

Because it really is that easy.

[RJmoney 0]

yessssssssss

word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117

[kallend 1,618]

Quote

Heres a good one.. as always i'm trying to keep my options open with the direction 's that i want to go in with this sport.

I was looking at the ammount of incidents that occured when people were using wingsuits.

The numbers are super low. more low than they should be % wise.

What SHOULD the death rate be, then?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bdrake529 0]

For the record, the details of the cause of that 1 wing suiting death were never determined (or rather, those details leading up to the death). Whether the wingsuit itself had anything to do with the death was undetermined.

Brian Drake

[jakee 1,254]

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Is it due to the experiance and jump numbers needed to participate, meaning only good skydivers get into it who have better than avarge skills?

Probably not that one

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[VectorBoy 0]

Is it due to the way the canopy is deployed i.e more horizontal than us vertical deployers?

Or is it due to a better training system?

And you can definitely throw out these two also. Its pretty safe to say that wingsuits place the most demands on the deployment sequence than most other types of skydiving. And there is a gag order on discussing that second sentence in this forum.

[bergh 0]

In my personal opinion you first have to look at how many ws jumps are made compared to FS and RW and CF(CRW).

Then secondly wingsuiting is still new to the community and very few people consider wingsuiting there primary discipline.

I also think the fact that you know you have restricted moved does help to keep you more cautious.

_______________________________________
You are unique, just like everybody else ...

[crashtested 0]

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This thread goes great with your downsizing thread! Are you planning on getting a wingsuit to balance out the risks of your canopy selection?

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Yes i am, that way i can finish myself off. probally come in just b4 jeb on his magic ramp!!!

You just have to face the fact that i'm a far better canopy pilot then you are Dough... the 300+ speed flying jumps saw to that...

[Pendragon 1]

An observation:

When wingsuits first came out, little was known in the wider skydiving community about them and the risks involved (apart from a few scare stories I'm sure). So BirdMan (probably amongst others) put together a series of recommendations on currency/min levels of experience in order to fly one. These have been now almost universally adopted as, from what you say, there haven't been many life-endangering incidents and no-one can see the need to change a system that basically works.

OTOH, most countries have few (if any) restrictions on the canopy that a jumper can fly. As already pointed out earlier in this thread, it's accidents under canopy that are responsible for most injures/fatalities right now, argubly most likely involving people using canopies with a performance envelope outside of their experience range.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[DougH 270]

Quote

Quote

This thread goes great with your downsizing thread! Are you planning on getting a wingsuit to balance out the risks of your canopy selection?

Quote

Yes i am, that way i can finish myself off. probally come in just b4 jeb on his magic ramp!!!

You just have to face the fact that i'm a far better canopy pilot then you are Dough... the 300+ speed flying jumps saw to that...

But of course, I never made the point that you weren't. I think we all know that you are the shit.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dragon2 0]

If you think wingsuits cannot be dangerous, take a look at the incident rate of BASE wingsuit jumps vs "regular" BASE jumps.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[VectorBoy 0]

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If you think wingsuits cannot be dangerous, take a look at the incident rate of BASE wingsuit jumps vs "regular" BASE jumps.

But most of those involve trying to out fly the terrain. An otherwise perfectly stable flight without enough clearance. Just not enough glide angle to deploy safely.

[dragon2 0]

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If you think wingsuits cannot be dangerous, take a look at the incident rate of BASE wingsuit jumps vs "regular" BASE jumps.

But most of those involve trying to out fly the terrain. An otherwise perfectly stable flight without enough clearance. Just not enough glide angle to deploy safely.

That's often the case with "regular" BASE incidents too no?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[LouDiamond 1]

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When wingsuits first came out, little was known in the wider skydiving community about them and the risks involved (apart from a few scare stories I'm sure). So BirdMan (probably amongst others) put together a series of recommendations on currency/min levels of experience in order to fly one. These have been now almost universally adopted as, from what you say, there haven't been many life-endangering incidents and no-one can see the need to change a system that basically works.

The short history lesson on this topic is that wingsuits were actually banned for many years following the barnstormer era. It wasn't until camera men made the need for a wing to help them film in the late 50's known that any type of wing could be used and the rules were changed. However, there were no guidelines or even mention of wingsuits in any nations parachuting governance manual specifically on the use of wingsuits. It wasn't until recently(history wise) that the USPA contacted Birdman(the only mfgr of wingsuits at the time) towards the later quarter in 2003 and asked for guidance on wingsuits. Using the guidance that was already being put out by Birdman for several years the USPA added a section to the 2005 SIM specifically about wingsuits. Since then other countries parachuting governing bodies have sought out further guidance. I have consulted with at least 3 other countries parachuting governing bodies and have worked with them on developing a set of rules that fits their needs.

One thing to note in all of this, is that many if not all of the other countries who have addressed wingsuiting in their manuals have adopted more stringent requirements to fly a wingsuit than those initially put out by Birdman and later on by the USPA SIM. Likewise, other companies who produce wingsuits later went on to follow Birdman's Instructor program (established by Jari, myself, chuck and Kim) to help provide training to aspiring wingsuit pilots. As Wingsuiting continues to grow in it's number of participants, there is always the possibility and probability that there will be more wingsuiting incidents. However, having established rules, forms of instruction and safety guides along with a relatively small pool of participants at this point has done a fair share to help other skydivers accept wingsuits into the dive flow and minimize the amount of Wingsuit related accidents.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MarkM 0]

I've found the evolution of wingsuits themselves to be interesting along with this as well.

First wingsuits are banned because they're death traps.

Then comes along a wingsuit that's safe, because you can cut away the wings and go back to a normal skydive.

Next you have bigger suits, and the cut aways are for under canopy use only.

Now you have suits that don't have wing cutaways.

I tend to think it's a combination of having strict requirements in the start when people were learning what works and didn't work and now we're riding on the back of that learning.

It seems pretty common now to see people in wingsuits below 200 jumps and I've heard of a few starting below 100 jumps. Hopefully these people don't start pounding it in or striking tandems.

[jakee 1,254]

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If you think wingsuits cannot be dangerous, take a look at the incident rate of BASE wingsuit jumps vs "regular" BASE jumps.

But most of those involve trying to out fly the terrain. An otherwise perfectly stable flight without enough clearance. Just not enough glide angle to deploy safely.

That's often the case with "regular" BASE incidents too no?

So then what's the relevance in discussing BASE incidents as an answer to skydiving questions? What can be fatal in BASE is often a non-issue in skydiving.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[crashtested 0]

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This thread goes great with your downsizing thread! Are you planning on getting a wingsuit to balance out the risks of your canopy selection?

Quote

Yes i am, that way i can finish myself off. probally come in just b4 jeb on his magic ramp!!!

You just have to face the fact that i'm a far better canopy pilot then you are Dough... the 300+ speed flying jumps saw to that...

But of course, I never made the point that you weren't. I think we all know that you are the shit.

I like being the shit, its better then being one, hey dough? I only say it cause i'm starting to like you....

[crashtested 0]

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I'd suggest you are overanalyzing. Or perhaps you have misconceptions of the discipline. I've met people who have labeled wingsuits as "deathtraps" but that's only because they remember wingsuits from PdG's death, "Gypsy Moths" or maybe the very early history of flying with wings (nearly every pilot died in the very early days). In other words, they're ill-informed.

I would submit the specifics you were given as to why wingsuits don't have higher incident #'s are correct. FWIW, I'd never suggest that I have "above average" skills. But I surely do enjoy wingsuiting.

DSE, In the thread I was also actually intrested in the way the deployment of parachute worked and whether this had an effect on the canopy, and if flying horizontinaly more then verticaly meant less malfunctions. my other q's have been awnsered in some ways or another.

So i don't have to start another thread do you and other wingstuiters think you get less or more problems or mals when deploying your main with wings on or off?? or is it the same ammount??

Thanks for all being so informative about this!

[DSE 3]

You'd probably do better starting another thread...

My experiences are on my skydiving blog if you care to read them, but the short answer is that if I didn't pay attention to what I was doing, line twists were part of 4-6 jumps. Once I started paying attention...I haven't had line twists in a long time. Strange, same thing happened with my first rig, I had probably a dozen jumps in a row with line twists. Turned out to be the way I was packing.
In other words, the wingsuit won't cause problems, IMO, it's your body position IN the wingsuit that might cause problems. Yet another reason (IMO) that you should:
~wait til you have the recommended # of jumps
~wait til you can get a solid, well-informed first jump course from a qualified instructor.