0
voodew1

Alienation

Recommended Posts

So with all these new bigway/ invitational events we have arrived


We are now RW, we can take and alienate a whole group of flyers because they don't have as much experience

We have created a whole group of 'amazing flyers' or more like amazing posters on dz.com and put them on a higher level then everyone else

Don't see how this is going to be good for the wingsuit flyers in general

I believe that the Flock n Dock who would take everyone and anyone was on the right track.
Now it seems like the egos have taken over

These invational events should have been done on a low key level not advertising it is happening and then picking only the ones you want -- be it skills or because they are your friend

Soon we will have one guy fucking up all the flights but he will never get cut because he is friends with the organizer --- sounds like state record attempts I have been on

Good luck with that

just my 2 cents --- how do the rest of ya'll feel about this


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont think you could be further from the truth..

I think events like these wont exclude the more open events from happening.
and this will help develop the bigway flying, both imagewise and (more important) safetywise. and all the (self proclaimed?) flying hero's will take the learnt biway skills back to their home dz..

its about progressing..not alianating people..

trust me (speaking for myself) excluding people and working towards some elite group that will never jump with others aint the idea..
its just one event (though 2 at the same time now:) and though it may oppose or even upset you now...you'll see it will definately contribute to our discipline..skills wise..image wise..safet wise
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason,

I see exactly what you are saying. The point of us trying to build a world record is not about egos, or alienating anyone. In fact it is the opposite. ANYONE who flies a wingsuit is absolutely welcome to tryout and participate in this event. I encourage anyone to try. Even if you are new or dont think your skills are there yet. This is why we are having training camps. remember we still have a year until the event, that leaves the potential for someone who has never even flown yet to get up to speed and participate.
we are holding camps and training anyone who wants for free. I think this is a great opportunity for alot of fliers to build their skills.

There wont be a Bigway RW mentality whith this. because alot of wingsuiters have taken it up mainly for the fun freedom and relaxed formatiion flying we do.

I personally will be spending alot of money on this event. paying for my onw travel, jumps etc.. THis has to be fun or its not worth it.

anyways all we want to do is build a formation as big and pretty as we can. just natural progression, and I know there is a lot of talent out there for us to succeed. I hope to see you on this event.

Justin Shorb
Flock U

:)

Wingsuit organizing, first flight courses and coaching
Flock University
Tonysuits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i concur - i think making an effort and going to the camps and trying hard to get a spot will teach you alot and improve your flying.

its all about learning i think is what Jarno is saying.


plus 70 people is a fark load ... its alot of wingsuit pilots.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can always find a mountain and fly down its slope, or start organizing flocks with the people who did not make the cut, or just go your own way, like just having a good time flocking with people with less than 100 skydives.

Don't worry, if you fuck up a jump just mention my name, next thing pink mike will blow you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont think you could be further from the truth..

I think events like these wont exclude the more open events from happening.
and this will help develop the bigway flying, both imagewise and (more important) safetywise.
---------------------------
well said,
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

There wont be a Bigway RW mentality whith this. because alot of wingsuiters have taken it up mainly for the fun freedom and relaxed formatiion flying we do.



Eventually there will have to be. That "Bigway RW mentality" didn't form overnight. It's for safety and success... A 71-way in any discipline is really freaking serious bidness. You guys will learn from the bigway RW crowd, either the easy way or the hard way.

BTW, what's the criteria for a wingsuit bigway record? Everybody visible in one picture? Will a satellite picture work? :)
Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agreed...the 'fun and relaxed' flying in wingsuits works up to a 4 way...above that number, its starts going towards dangerous if the 'RW mentality' doesnt ease its way into our discipline..

Making sure someone has the skills to be on a certain dive is not ignorant or ego-based...putting low experienced flyers on those dives is...

There is a big writup on formation flying, safety and issues with 'axing people from dives' on http://www.flylikebrick.com

developing the sport this way is moving forward..and definately doesnt take any fun out of it..it just ads new challenges for everyone and will (in the end) also help newer birds to train/learn with and from the more experienced/older flyers...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and for the record...if I or anyone else screws up on a bigway attempt...be it slotwise or safetywise..I definately want actions being taken...be it a warning, the shifting to a more 'outside slot' or being moved to a B poule of jumpers...

Names, egos and friendship should not be a deciding factor in any of that...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

well besides the one post about blowing you, i think the replies have confirmed it.

yes its gonna happen, i just think some people aren't sure if it sucks or not.

i vote sucks.



I don't think "Sucks" is the correct way to look at it. Big ways are a different animal then flying around with a few buddies on an average weekend. Footloose and fancy free flying will be difficult if you want to have success and earn that success with an expected high level of safety.

With anything in skydiving, some people are better then others overall. Some may be fantastic in one area but maybe not so much so in other aspects in the same discipline. My skydiving experience really says and agrees with slot specific, non hawking of slots as being something that is common in RW but foreign to WS for the most part. Trying to add that structure is going to take some of the feeling of "FREE" from people wanting or looking for that loose attitude within the WS discipline. Those who like the non-structured nature of it might have to take a hard look at themselves (their goals) and think a big way is not your bag. The free attitude or approach might be a helluva a lot of fun and work for smaller ways but it really opens a can of worms for bigger flocks. Putting someone with not enough experience on a huge flock is asking for trouble just the same as in any discipline. Itis not fair to either the person or the rest of the group so yes some level of performance expectation should be measured.

Every discipline seems to go through this, think about Free Flying 10 years ago and how it was. People tired of the cliques going to it, younger jumpers finding it hard to jump with the more experienced jumpers were going to it. Whoever it was and for whatever reason, this new area offered a chance to break off and "Flop" around and say it was with some style. Expectations were loose and it was fun! Pretty soon after that with more people doing it some skills got involved, egos followed and exclusion from a free attitude happened. Some aspects were creating a safer environment which probably saved a good bit of injury. I also whole heartedly agree that it can turn nasty and lead to people getting their feelings hurt and the skygod syndrome kicking in..

Is this a transition time with the WS discipline, I would say so and along with that transition will be growing pains of some not liking some additional structure. I agree 100% that there are times in RW or Freeflying where the "Friend" factor can cause issues, hard feelings, ect... but hopefully that can be minimized to some degree if people are aware of the expectations. DO I think it can be eliminated, in a perfect world maybe, but when your dealing with egos and feelings it is bound to happen. Hell these threads cant even last more then 10 posts on average before it spirals a bit. No matter if you like it or not the structure is going to be needed with a bigger way. Just because you have a suit and fly it some does not make you qualified to join in on this specific endeavor but it also does not mean you cant learn and grow to the point where you can. This is the gray area that is really tough, transitioning from all are welcome to telling someone that they need to work on a few things before they can get up to this level. Good bad or ugly sometimes there are good reasons for the change but the trick is seeing the reasons and working towards a positive outcome.

Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wasn't this same issue brought up when freeflailing evolved into VRW? Mostly by people that had no control of their body in freefall, and felt alienated when people wanted a dive plan I think. All bigway RW includes the rotten task of cutting people unfortunatly. For safety issues, which should rank the highest issue, to performance issues, nobody wants to waste their money jumping when there is a goal in mind. Favoratism and friends of organizers, that remain on formations after screwing up numerous times, is an unjustice to all the others on the formation IMHO. I have been on many large formations and seen this happen, but I'm not going to whine about it, or let let it stand in the way of doing more large formations in the future. There still will be fun flocking going on in the wingsuit world, but I dout we'll see a World Record ZOO flock organized anytime soon though. Both record attempts will lead to wingsuit pilots having goals for better control in the air, rather then seeing who can fly the longest or farthest, and for some people having more control of the wingsuits that are sometimes flying them.
Let's try to think of it as a different form of the discipline, and not an alienation.....


Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i agree about being safe in a big way, i just think your definition of success is not mine. as far as big ways go if thats what you have the most fun doing go for it.

but i think success is the most people smiling, after all for the majority of us, its just what we do on the weekends or their equivalent.

and i don't think people are flailing around, dive plans are fun for me ask vectorboy i think we sorta followed one over thanksgiving. but i don't think there's enough people wingsuiting where we should be saying sorry man maybe after the big way weekend. and i think thats what breeds the mentality that alienates people.
word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I dout we'll see a World Record ZOO flock organized anytime soon though.



Many people who were on this load will tell you they were part of the current world record "50-way"... because there were 50 people on 3 Otters (something like that).

Look at the picture... does it look like a 50-way to you? I think there's about 33 flyers in frame, but I wouldn't call it a 33-way either. Not really sure what I'd call it.

Point is, if we couldn't do a a 33-way a few months ago, why are we trying for something over twice that big next? Look at the FF and RW records... they increase their sizes by small percentages, after success. They don't try to double their size before succeeding at the previous size.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Considering your level of involvement with both events, Matt, I'm curious why you're publicly airing your doubts as to their viability and the wisdom of the plans (or do you just take sadistic pleasure from capturing mayhem on video/stills...).

Though I agree with your realism, I think its worth pointing out that FnD 3.0 wasn't invite only and there wasn't a full year of training camps leading up to it. When people start to realize they've got to have the skills to be invited, I think enough will step it up and a 71-way (or bigger) won't seem as audacious.

And actually, since these are international events, I'd suspect we're close to the desired size in qualified flockers at this point and we still have a year of training to go.
Brian Drake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you bring up a good point as I am sure others are probably thinking the same thing. However, some very valid explanations have been given so far as to why and invitational is necessary, safety being a major one.

I don't think we have gotten to the point where people are being excluded intentionally by any means. In fact, the event I am holding I clearly state that it's open to EVERYONE who is qualified. Since most of the people who read these boards have flown with each other, myself or one of the other mentioned people, getting a referral isn't that hard. In fact, I know if you wish to participate, you could get a referral from at least one BMCI I know. All people have to do is be willing to participate and have the required skills. Since it's performance based, a person either can or cannot show demonstrable skills , if they cannot, they get cut just like in any other event be it formation flying or dodge ball.

Events like Flock and Dock and the An-72 boogie serve their purpose in providing people an easy going environment to learn,improve their skills,gain experience and have fun. However, for those who have the skills and desire to fly in a more organized and precise flock an invitational type of event is ideal as it draws like minded and skilled people together in an environment where some really incredible things can be achieved. Granted, that might not be for everyone and there will always be instances where someone thinks there is favoritism but that is simply describing human nature and not reflective of what the event is about.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Agree w Matt 100%



As do I, Robi. I know lots of people that fly extremely tight in slot, but plenty of others (who we all routinely jump with at events) who wash all over the place and scare the rest of us. James Boole and I were talking about "the fourth row" thing at, possibly FnD 2.5. You know, how that we never have any problems creating very-tight formations up front, but that after that fourth row of people the gaps widen and the formation gets much looser. The large flying chevrons are always tighter than the large wedges and diamonds. The reason is that the people in the middle of those big wedges sometimes feel "penned up" and freak out. That, or simply star washing around in the middle forcing the people around them to give them a wider berth.

I would actually rather participate in a backfly nine-way (or larger) perfect diamond with truly talented flyers than a big, loose "record." That said, I am definitely going to be in Elsinore and I will maybe make it to Arizona if my schedule allows it.

The texas boys had all better be there as well. Their experience will definitely be needed on any large record attempt.

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I dout we'll see a World Record ZOO flock organized anytime soon though.



Many people who were on this load will tell you they were part of the current world record "50-way"... because there were 50 people on 3 Otters (something like that).

Look at the picture... does it look like a 50-way to you? I think there's about 33 flyers in frame, but I wouldn't call it a 33-way either. Not really sure what I'd call it.

Point is, if we couldn't do a a 33-way a few months ago, why are we trying for something over twice that big next? Look at the FF and RW records... they increase their sizes by small percentages, after success. They don't try to double their size before succeeding at the previous size.



While FnD does draw large groups for making formations, is does not draw the best wingsuit flyers, by far, sorry. If the 33 in your picture are at the record attempt, and the the others on that flock practice enough over the next YEAR, there may be a chance it will complete. Many other good pilots from other countries will travel for a goal such as this, and the outlook for something better then a typical Flock n Dock or WestCoast Wingsuits event will conspire.
Try not to defeat your goals before they start.

Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Try not to defeat your goals before they start.
---------------------
Yes, I think having the more experienced wingsuiters there will make it fly so much nicer, you know it only takes one flailer to upset the load,

There was negativity before the freeflying 69 way at Chicago's summerfest this year, they got it though.
and yes, I think if your in the photo your flying relative to the group, that's about all you can hope for without grips,
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

What? No invitation?



Didn't want one nor would I attend even if I got one --- bigways are for egos driven crack heads -- I assume you'll be there

And i could fly any slot on the given 'record' attempt more than likely in a Prodigy or even and big freefly suit.

I am to guess this will be a mass exit record attempt as thats all it possibly could be


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The texas boys had all better be there as well. Their experience will definitely be needed on any large record attempt.



Chuck, I will be seeing you at the FnD but I will have to pass on the 1 point skydives -- not my bag

I am sure Bob will want to go and maybe Theo and Mudbug

I wish you luck and just keep in mind everyone deserves to have fun so maybe have a organizer to play with the other flyers in between the mass exits

And you'll always be my negro

PS that back fly 9 way sounds fun --- maybe someday I will learn to backfly:S but I am belly down by nature and can't seem to stay on my back


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guys,
If the goal is to make 71 -way, proposed way looks fragile.
I think that is not good to set the goal of doing the biggest WS formation than ever with such '' stretchy '' rules were everybody are welcome, and at the same time there will be strong rules set, but also all will be happy with decision organizers will make. That simply can't happen!!
There is two ways of doing such formations:
1. Skill building.
were people go to Z-hills F&D (or similar WS boogies ) were formation and skill building is and always going to be the only priority.
2. Record attempt.
were jumps should be organized seriously and mature.
Selection should be made so that formation is the only priority using the skill and experience of selected people, were the decision set by team captains will be executed w no mercy.

ASAP as rules for the WS record formation is announced, invitation, applying and hunting for the slot will/may start.
Idea how to organize is well known and can be clearly copied from RW big ways.
I have no doubt that many of the WS jumpers has respectful experience in big RW formation (and that is welcome and only can be good)

IMHO , it is wrong to organize the 71- way flock just to impress ourselves w the possible 71- way, knowing that we have lack of everything( skills, people, organizers,planes, etc )
Result of such can be disappointment of those jumpers who expected more than just fun and yeah , give me five ...
Better is to go ahead and make skill camps( few of them ) to see what realistically WS jumpers can do and than organize ''The Record WS formation'' with whatever the number can be.
Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me just put it this way...

I sat out the majority of FnD 3.0 because there were certain wingsuit pilots there who I have absolutely NO faith in their abilities to fly safely (learned the hard way, I assure you). I also sat out a few loads at Summerfest 2007 and FnD 3.5 because of those same individuals.

I will also sit out any big way attempt if those individuals show up. Unless I have someone who I respect vouch for them and their improvements in flying ability.

Do I approve of this "elitist" mentality...ABSOLUTELY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0