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virgin-burner

i'll probably get flamed..

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Yea...true...lets forget about that whole overrated safety thing, and just focus on being cool...

I for one will be glad when wingsuit AFF shows up. As we get soo many whuffo questions in the email asking for a 1st jump in a wingsuit without prior skydiving experienceB|

Yippy Kayee!B|;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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And a piece of clothing that requires you practically remove prior to landing, not to mention a different deployment technique. Two arm zippers, two leg zippers can be sometimes problematic once you figure in dealing with line twists or total malfunction.
I'm sure there are a lot of very talented guys able to fly a wingsuit at lower jump numbers. The question is whether they're able to deal with the difficulties that might come up in a bad situation.

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just been to that dropzone again. of course i was asked again to wingsuit! ;)

and no, i didnt!

just watched as other jumpers with unknown (to them, i know, we're a small country..) jump-#'s were approached the same style..!









now i have one question. since you guys are obviously are all top-notch pilots n'everything, how is it possible that a mate ordered a WS with the manufacturer directly, that didnt even have my #'s at the time? he still doesnt! besides the point, its NOT a prodigy. but a phantom!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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now i have one question. since you guys are obviously are all top-notch pilots n'everything, how is it possible that a mate ordered a WS with the manufacturer directly, that didnt even have my #'s at the time? he still doesnt! besides the point, its NOT a prodigy. but a phantom!




Six or seven years ago a whole dropezone of "mates" ordered wingsuits at the same time. I think it was the buddy deal, buy one suit half price on the second so how can you refuse. The manufacturer fully knowing that these new customers were fresh nuggets. The intention was that they would seek mentoring from a handfull of jumpers that had gotten the opportunity the year before at a nearby DZ. To the best of my knowledge I was the only one that did.

Manufacturers have zero policy enforcement after a product leaves their hands. Its up to you to follow their guidlines.

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dont you think its a little disturbing!? a manufacturer not following his own guidelines? i'm not trying to act like a kid here, but where's the responsibility in that? enforcing or not, but if business just means business.. in your words that would mean they sell ONE suit to each of their customers, or am i completely wrong with my assumptions?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Manufacturers can only make guidelines and recomendations..

Its up to the consumer/user to follow (or like yourself) ignore them..
They are MANUFACTURERS...meaning the MAKE the suits....enforcing rules and recomendations is in part something a dropzone owner could or should do.
But they are not selling suits to 3 year olds...everyone is responsible for his/her own actions..

Blaming other people or companies doesnt take one single bit of responsibility away from yourself...
YOU are the one putting on a wingsuit, and YOU are the one pushing out of an airplane or off a cliff with it...

If you are brave enough to do that..then also be a man and stop pointing fingers..

As for the person taking unqualified low experience flyers (such as yourself) up..if you dont agree...speak up and do something about it....talk to the person...talk to the dzo...talk to the manufacturer who's name the person is using as a teaching reference and stop him from being listed as a qualified teacher..

But stop crying in here and take responsibility for what you did and what you say you stand for...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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What's disturbing is hearing that there are skydivers out there that think ANY of the responsibility lies with someone other than the person jumping.




True, unless you are talking about instructors and or mentors giving guidance to the unknowing that are trusting their instructor/mentor. Then it becomes a different dynamic.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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how does it change the dynamic?



Who is responsible if the "instructor" isn't fully informed, isn't trained as an instructor, or is self-taught but is perhaps missing part of the program?

Is it the fault of the student for not knowing what needs to be known prior to the first jump or new technique? Or does the instructor bear some responsibility? It's easy to say "he knows/knew the risks" but if the student isn't properly informed, isn't that just rationalized bullshit?

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how does it change the dynamic?



Who is responsible if the "instructor" isn't fully informed, isn't trained as an instructor, or is self-taught but is perhaps missing part of the program?

Is it the fault of the student for not knowing what needs to be known prior to the first jump or new technique? Or does the instructor bear some responsibility? It's easy to say "he knows/knew the risks" but if the student isn't properly informed, isn't that just rationalized bullshit?




It does not matter. This is not a driving instructor, golf instructor or cooking instructor we are talking about. You are taking your intact living being and thrusting it out of an aircraft. That is some crazy shit and you are responsible for everything about it.

And since this is the wingsuit forum and not the instructor (TM or AFF) forum you should realize that your first paragraph describes the majority of the first WS instructors available from the early days, and even some from today.

And to put it into perspective we could go out on a mock first flight course where I pretend to flail as a first flight student with the intent that some instructor is going to swoop down straighten me out deploy for me and save my non wingsuit flying ass. Lets give this exercise in futility a hard deck of 6000 feet for my safety. I can cold cash guarantee no WS instructor, no BMI, BMCI, no black belt sky god wingsuit ninja is going to achieve that task. BTW fail that task in a Jay Stokes AFF program and no Rating for you. And I've seen him make very accomplished skydivers cry over this. In the world of AFF instruction that is an expectation. Put us all in wingsuits and not even Jay Stokes himself could take my money before the hard deck!

Back to the discussion You want to throw on a wingsuit before the guideline 200 jumps you are responsible. Not the manufacturer. And if you think you want to throw on a wingsuit with 10,000 jumps experience ( more than well within the guidelines) go ahead But you are still responsible. Yeah sure like I got to say that to someone with 10k jumps. No , they know who the responsibility falls on.

You!

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It does not matter. This is not a driving instructor, golf instructor or cooking instructor we are talking about. You are taking your intact living being and thrusting it out of an aircraft. That is some crazy shit and you are responsible for everything about it.

<>

Yeah sure like I got to say that to someone with 10k jumps. No , they know who the responsibility falls on.

You!



Damn Glen, line um up and smack them down! Though I tend to agree...

When I started WS jumps I did a lot of looking into it, read about it and did my risk/reward calculations, obviously I think it is easy to see what won in my case. But I do firmly believe that short of a Tandem which you get minimal training and are really trusting the person strapped to you for your life. I can even see it to some degree to a first jumper who is still trusting of the instructor/"s" but at least have been given a knowledge pool to draw from in their FJC, anything you do in this sport is fully under your own decision. Can it be influenced, yeah just like anything that we do but the ultimate responsibility does rely with us...

There are numerous resources available online for information including the manufacturers pages and fly like brick site to name a couple and I would question someone who does not at lest try and see the whole picture when going into a specialized area like WS that poses some extra risks. No matter how "good" or "natural" that person is.

Personal responsibility but Hell, maybe that is just me... I look at this the same as when I talk to people about small fast parachutes. "Sure you (low time jumper full of piss and vinegar and tons of natural ability with way too low a jump number) you will probably be fine jumping (fill in the blank) 99% of the time, Hell maybe a higher % but and the BIG BUT is if that small % decides to jump up on YOUR jump, you have to RECOGNIZE THE ISSUE correctly, IDENTIFY THE COURSE OF ACTION correctly and finally IMPLEMENT SAID CORRECTIVE ACTION correctly... THAT is exactly where the experience you do not have comes into to play to save your life.... But what do I know, Its not my life..."

Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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how does it change the dynamic?




(Not specifically directed at you RJ) Geez some of you people need to lay off whatever it is that you're on. Skydiving, jumping out of a plane or off a cliff, is an individual responsibility. I thought that was a given and everyone was in agreement with that and that I wouldn't have to caveat my previous statement clarifying that. Apparently I was mistaken.


To avoid panties getting in a wad again, I will caveat with this..... the following is not only about WSing but in general, be it an AFF, Tandem, Canopy Coach,coach dive, RW, FF or tunnel coach, mentor,showing a newbie how to pack, lighting a gas grill,etc.

Someone doing something for the first time under the guidance of another who is believed to be informed or experienced is trusting that person to tell them what they don't know or tell them simple shit, like don't do X, it will get you killed,hurt,maimed,etc. Doing that in no way relieves that individual of their overall responsibility for themselves, but the person providing information needs to realize that what they say/don't say to that trusting person could turn out as innocent as " I wish you would of told me that BEFORE I did X " and in the worse case it could result in someone hurting or killing themselves ( the canopy forum has some good and bad examples of this type of responsibility being exercised by those giving advise or information. We also see/hear it on the DZ all the time).

As adults we know( most of us anyway) not to touch the hot stove but a person who has never seen a stove before (or doesn't see the burner) might be inclined to touch it. People don't know what they don't know until someone tells them and hopefully the information passed on to them has their best interest in mind, like "Careful, don't touch the stove it's hot and will burn you". When you step into the role of an instructor or are in a position of giving advise to someone else YOU take on those additional responsibilities as a human being.

To not think about (to include their skills/abilities)or have that other persons well being in mind when providing them with information is as DSE stated "It's easy to say "he knows/knew the risks" but if the student/person isn't properly informed, it's just rationalized bullshit". Hopefully the above makes sense to everyone. I'd say it's common sense but we all know common sense isn't very common in some people sometimes.

I'll say it again for those who have a short attention span/memory... Skydiving, jumping out of a plane or off a cliff, is an individual responsibility and choice.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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now i have one question. since you guys are obviously are all top-notch pilots n'everything, how is it possible that a mate ordered a WS with the manufacturer directly, that didnt even have my #'s at the time? he still doesnt! besides the point, its NOT a prodigy. but a phantom!



Hi Chris,

I don't know you personally, but may be we met last weekend at this DZ.
I think I know the person you are talking about - I borrowed him my PF Tracking suit.
He told me that he ordered directly a Phantom.

My advice was that he should start with Tracking Pants first, then with the Prodigy and after flying the Prodigy stable then the Phantom.
I don't know what he told Stane to get the Phantom...

So my advice: there are some instructors around which take it seriously to learn you wingsuit flying - use this chance!

On Saturday I was the only Wingsuit flyer there, on Sunday I was flying with Urs - his first WS flight.
I know him well and he has more than the recommended jump numbers - so that couldn't be what you described, or (maybe) it was another DZ...


I can offer you my full support to get into this sport - but please take it seriously!

Cordially,

Herwig


"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so"
Bertrand Russell

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Someone doing something for the first time under the guidance of another who is believed to be informed or experienced is trusting that person to tell them what they don't know or tell them simple shit, like don't do X, it will get you killed,hurt,maimed,etc.

Quote



Yes and a casual reading of the manual included with the product or available online if the product has come second hand will cover most of what you describe above



the person providing information needs to realize that what they say/don't say to that trusting person could turn out as innocent as " I wish you would of told me that BEFORE I did X " and in the worse case it could result in someone hurting or killing themselves.

Quote


That makes sense in a generalized kind of way but can you give us a real world example of something directly related to wingsuit instruction that would fit the description above. Not talking stoves but, for example, something specific not to say to someone about to jump a wingsuit for the first time? Specifically something that is not already referenced in the manual?



When you step into the role of an instructor or are in a position of giving advise to someone else YOU take on those additional responsibilities as a human being.

To not think about (to include their skills/abilities)or have that other persons well being in mind when providing them with information is as DSE stated "It's easy to say "he knows/knew the risks" but if the student/person isn't properly informed, it's just rationalized bullshit".

Quote

Well hopefully anybody giving advice ( instructor or otherwise) isn't giving bogus info on purpose. But you can write a very thick flight information manual with glossy pictures , hell make it a interactive DVD with questions and answer option menu. Put everything in it about wingsuit instruction that needs to be in it and nothing that shouldn't be. Call it official. Sell it for $20 plus shipping and handling or be a humanitarian and put it up for free on skydiving movies.

Wouldn't that absolutley cure all of the possible problems out there for new comers? The gospel and nothing but! Simple huh.

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Well hopefully anybody giving advice ( instructor or otherwise) isn't giving bogus info on purpose. But you can write a very thick flight information manual with glossy pictures , hell make it a interactive DVD with questions and answer option menu. Put everything in it about wingsuit instruction that needs to be in it and nothing that shouldn't be. Call it official. Sell it for $20 plus shipping and handling or be a humanitarian and put it up for free on skydiving movies.

Wouldn't that absolutley cure all of the possible problems out there for new comers? The gospel and nothing but! Simple huh.



I know people who at (lower then recomended) jump numbers decided to take a book as a guide...

Be it a book or someone calling himselves instructor....its not just about being able to tell people how to do something.
Making sure they are ready (be it mentaly or skill-wise) to perform sayd task safely is a huge part of that...

And thats definitely a part that gets skipped every once in a while...which is mostly what this thread is about....
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Lets say someone with 10,000 jumps comes up to a wingsuit instructor and wants a first flight. Even though they have enough skydiving experience to skip the instructor part and just throw on a suit they are smart enough to want a little formal training.

The ground portion is short and sweet with just the facts needed. The applicants experience insures there are no "off the wall" questions asked.

The in air portion goes unstable right out the door. Recovery techniques and muscle memory are counter intuitive and there is nothing the very experienced instructor could do to assist the otherwise, very experienced student. A miracle happens the student gets stable maybe pulls high lands and swears never to wingsuit again.

Although very rare, this actual event has happened even though they had the very best and very thorough ground instruction, and well fitting suit suitable for fist flights.

Really the only thing you can hold the instructor accountable for is the ground instruction. Its impossible to judge a students suitability 100% of the time.

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I know people who at (lower then recomended) jump numbers decided to take a book as a guide...

....



NO they didn't. They read the book and then they disregarded the jump number guidlines. Disregarding something you read in the manual : be it jump numbers, canopy type, deployment system is not using the book for instruction.

......... Thank you,....... next caller!

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Really the only thing you can hold the instructor accountable for is the ground instruction. Its impossible to judge a students suitability 100% of the time.



Definitely agreed..
And in the case of this thread, its the 'instructor' who is failing to make sure students meet proper skill/experience levels..

Taking all the no/low experience flyers, who have no business even putting on a wingsuit, out of the equation helps a lot...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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....its not just about being able to tell people how to do something.
Making sure they are ready (be it mentaly or skill-wise) to perform sayd task safely is a huge part of that...

...



So now you are a wingsuit instructor/psychologist? Did you earn that degree in a six year accredited program or the half day session with patches instead of diplomas?

You know as skydivers we're all a littleB| crazy, its what makes us cute and cuddly. I'm just not gunna pretend to be aware of just how crazy you sum'bitches are. I'll be your bartender at best never your head shrink.

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