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ph8068

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Unless something unforeseen happens, those dates are set.



in the future, try to not have it around the 2 weeks for spring break. tickets to fl are always 50%-100% more than other times of the year... meaning less jump $, higher hotel costs, higher car rental, etc for everyone coming down there

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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As it has been said before, the multi-plane big ways definitely seem to be the defining event for Flock and Dock. I think it’s expected that a big-way attempt of a size equal to the number of interested and qualified flyers is going to happen, be it 20-way or 80-way. I also think the plan Scott has put out there is good, and certainly as good as any I’ve seen.

To me, doing a 90 and getting t-boned at 100 mph isn’t much better than doing a 180 and going head-on at 200. At least a 180 gives you a chance to see them coming so you can dodge – something a 90 doesn’t.

I don’t think high break-offs are safer, I think they are more dangerous. If I break-off at 7000 feet, do a 90 and fly – I’ll be in the next county by pull time landing in someone's back yard and taking a bus back to the DZ. It is simply not necessary with WSs.

Worse yet, high break-offs lead to a bunch of mini-flocks – folks only paying attention to each other (and often on their back :S) and not looking at where they are going or who they are running into – bad thing.

To me, the way people fly after break-off is about as important as the direction they fly. Some dive and drive, others pop, others dive then pop. With this mix, you get a lot of vertical separation and the possibility for high vertical closing velocities. We’ve all seen videos.

I think controlling this aspect of the break-off could help with horizontal separation as well as reduce the possibility of vertical collisions. Something like having the flyers on the outside dive away and the folks in the center fly away at minimum sink velocity, which would help fill in the space in the middle of the break-off circle.

Getting everyone to understand the plan and on the same page is a requirement for success and safety, and the document Scott’s put out there is the best start I’ve seen, at any flocking event I’ve been to, to do this. It should be mandatory reading for participation.

Furthermore, a ton of safety stuff and any changes to the initial plan are covered during the dirt-dives and debriefings. If you are talking during this time, you and whomever you are talking to are not getting the information thus making you dangerous and a liability to the rest of the group. It is mandatory that this be a quiet time.

Even with big-ways, Flock & Dock is still all about “no flyer left behind”. It could be said another way – “something for everyone”. You will have a great time whether you are making your first wingsuit jump or your thousandth - big-ways, tight-ways, acrobatics, max-performance, 3-d sequential specialty flocks, legs-out sunset flocks, tons of new suits to try, meeting old friends, making new friends… something for everyone.
Play like your life depends on it.

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For what it's worth as a NOOB (to wingsuits anyway), I appreciated the No Flocker Left Behind policy as it was displayed @ FD 3.5 which was my first wingsuit event. The Grey Bros, Gray Mike, Chuck, Jeffro, Tony, Rob Jones, Robbie Pechnik, the other dude from Phoenix Fly who's name I can't remember, Scott all took the time to either give us some ground coaching or take us flying (or both), and just about every other flyer had something usefull or encouraging to say. The treatment and enthusiasm I recieved from all of the flockers led me to buy my first wingsuit at that event......my boss bought one too. Not bad for two newbie wingsuiters, for whatever it's worth, I like the No Flocker Left Behind program...........got me hooked.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

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To me, doing a 90 and getting t-boned at 100 mph isn’t much better than doing a 180 and going head-on at 200. At least a 180 gives you a chance to see them coming so you can dodge – something a 90 doesn’t.



Do you backloop into a 180?
As doing a 180 involves turning, and during that time first risk getting''T-boned' and then getting hit head-on.

With stray flyers maybe being a bit higher/lower the chance of you spotting someone coming at you at those speeds are little to none.
There's some videos online of accidental high speed passes (I remember one from Perry I think) and by the time people see eachother coming its already too late, and luck is what decides if you hit eachother or not.

Doing a 180 is just plain stupid..and saying "Id rather be hit at 200 km/h then 100 km/h" is not really the most valid reason Ive ever heard safetywise to do so?

Peel away from a formation slowly, at a predictable rate (not making sudden turns) and people will see you coming.

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I don’t think high break-offs are safer, I think they are more dangerous.



Its ok for you to think so...though incredibly wrong;)

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If I break-off at 7000 feet, do a 90 and fly – I’ll be in the next county by pull time landing in someone's back yard and taking a bus back to the DZ. It is simply not necessary with WSs.



We are not talking a direct 90 degree angle.
The extra altitude means that there is a lot of time to slowly peel away from the formation. Its also about time and safety.

Again, look at the RW 399 way.
If those guys just all waited till lower altitudes, and then F-ed off in any direction, you'd loose a few people every jump.

Its such a shame that everything thats already been tried and tested (tracking off in waves, tracking leaders) on bigway jumps in other diciplines is just ignored here.

And with the distances we fly, unless you keep jumps smaller, you cant avoid the area 80 people fly to be a little spread out.

If the back flyers fly it lazy, and the front flyer have more speed on (forward, not up!) it also means you get less distance then a 180 would give you. Doing a 180 at 5000 ft and then flying that down to 300 ft would put you further off then opening behind or off to the side of the base is an evenly spread out (half) circle.

And again..with those amounts of people in the air, you cant avoid having to need a big landing area at some point..

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Worse yet, high break-offs lead to a bunch of mini-flocks – folks only paying attention to each other (and often on their back :S) and not looking at where they are going or who they are running into – bad thing.



You are turning things around..
If people do controlled breakoffs, it means they are flying in set lines/paths, with manageable groups and their opening spot would even be predictable beforehand (given the base flies a steady patern)

Id love to get some input from you on being able to see where 80 people are heading when everybody just picks a direction..
Waving out in a controlled patern (when done diciplined, which is what it all really comes down to on bigways) is the safest way.
Just having 80 people point into a direction and hit the gas is going to cause mayhem in the sky..and unless people stop doing 180s, will lead to an incident at some point.

dicipline and organisation is the key..and my hat is off to Scott for the detailed dive-plan and rules. I would like to see 'no 180s' included as a safety point..but that aside...definately great work

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To me, the way people fly after break-off is about as important as the direction they fly. Some dive and drive, others pop, others dive then pop. With this mix, you get a lot of vertical separation and the possibility for high vertical closing velocities. We’ve all seen videos.



Thats why indeed, people should not make breakoff a racing game, but stick to a controlled speed. With 20 to 80 people doing their own breakoff, at different speeds, it can be mayhem...

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I think controlling this aspect of the break-off could help with horizontal separation as well as reduce the possibility of vertical collisions. Something like having the flyers on the outside dive away and the folks in the center fly away at minimum sink velocity, which would help fill in the space in the middle of the break-off circle.



Completely agree...
Having the forward people fly for distance, and the center/back people fly ay a lazy pace will ensure a lot of horizontal distance between flyers.
And not just turn an 80 way into a 5 km wide (half) circle..

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Getting everyone to understand the plan and on the same page is a requirement for success and safety, and the document Scott’s put out there is the best start I’ve seen, at any flocking event I’ve been to, to do this. It should be mandatory reading for participation.



Yes..definitely...as I sayd before...this is a type of briefing I wish more organisers would hand out before hand.
Too many big jumps have a briefing that just means people get a slot pointed out and then its off too the plane..

Getting in to more thourough safety/formation/flying briefings/debriefs also means people learn a lot more...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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At least a 180 gives you a chance to see them coming so you can dodge – something a 90 doesn’t.




You cant see them coming unless you have an eye on the top of your head. You are coming out of turn your bank angle is steep and your pitch is head low ( don't tell me you learned to do flat turns in a wingsuit from reading the canopy forum ). Try to do a brisk 180 and keep your eyes 20-30 degrees above the horizon scanning for traffic during the turn.

They may not see you because they have their head tucked down back arched for super glide to catch the formation. The straggler might be tired and be coming down at you in a poor 45 degree glide angle because they're tired. You will never see that, your only chance is to be ahead of them vectoring out and away. 180s are just bad.

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Jarno,

It's an odd thing about human psychology ... people don't respond well to being called stupid.

In spite of that I'm still interested to hear, from your vast experience at planning big-way wingsuit breakoffs, what exactly you would propose.

Scott

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Jarno,

It's an odd thing about human psychology ... people don't respond well to being called stupid.

But I put one of those smily faces with a tongue behind them?
I though that enabled me to say anything:P

But calling people stupid is not my intent...my sometimes misplaced humor and love of ponies just gets in the way every once in a while..hehe

***In spite of that I'm still interested to hear, from your vast experience at planning big-way wingsuit breakoffs, what exactly you would propose.

Scott



What I propose is getting some people in here that have been on the 399 (RW) way (Like Scott, Robi and quite a few others) and listen to what they did on those dives..As hardly anyone in wingsuits has any experience with anything higher then a 50 way (exits;):ph34r:).

I know the exclusion of a 180 means there is less space to cover at breakoff. But having people fly a bit more diciplined at breakoff as well as in the dive/formation before that, is sure a lot better then the potential injuries or near misses that may occur by doing 180s in the formation.

There is little experience in organising such big dives in terms of breakoff at the moment. But we just need to look at whats dangerous, and how to come up with a good plan to avoid that.

If 6000 ft is the proposed (3 stage) breakoff, you could have a first group of people left and right, in the back of the formation follow their sector captain (the person they are already using as their base/reference in the formation) during the initial slow bank/turn, and then follow him/her to about 4500. By then they have peeled away from the formation such a distance, they can seperate to solos for opening at 3K.
At that point, you could even have people going over 90 degrees, as they are soo far off to the side of the formation, there shouldnt be anyone behind there. This first group should be flying as lazy as they can (in terms of fallrate and forward speed) so they are also technicaly 'dropping out' of the formation.

The 2nd wave of flyers, plitting off at say 5500/5000 ft could just pick a 45 degree heading left/right, following their sector captains. You could even choose to devide this group in one that flies fast/far, and one that puts less effort into it. So you get people shooting out sideways.

And the last lead group (20 or so) will be quite ahead of the rest at that point, so they can just do their normal breakoff. Maybe again deviding it into 'flyers' and 'fallers'. So some people shoot off in the distance, other nearly go back into freefall.


Having each 'wave' towards one side devided into flyers and fallers, means you use the space in the middle as well, and not just end up with one huge circle of canopies...



I (again) want to take the 399 way RW formation as an example.
They have roughly 100 people shooting in every 45 degree angle/direction in the staged seperation. Which (I believe) started at 6500 or 6000.

With the distance you cover in a normal (non wingsuit) track, they manage to get 100 people to open a safe distance away from eachother, while using only 45 degrees of seperation.
If you take the 90 degrees we have (plus, we cover more distance) they can fit 200 people in there at seperation time.Why cant we fit in 50?


We always do seperation up to 90 degrees here (up to 20 ways or so) and never have any issues when people are flying diciplined.

We've also had 6 ways, where people went into playtime/outfly eachother mode, and ended up with 4 out of those 6 opening within CRW grabbing range of eachother.

Its all about structure and dicipline...
What we need to do together (everyone here) for these bigways is think and come up with a safe structure...and 180s definitely arent part of that..

*edit* attached an ugly 'paint' sketch of what I tried to write...looks messy...but picture people flying more and less distance, and you notice you get an evenly spread at breakoff. Even with room in the center for stray flyers to open.

Its not my 'this is how it should be'
Just trying to come up with a solution...think along everyone..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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lets not take this stuff into the personal attack relm. I can say (and i have a s$/t load of video to prove it) there is nothing you can do when you see a streak of color jet past you at less than inches away. No reaction time is quick enough personaly I am f?%#ing sick of near misses and being hit its only a matter of time before someone is mamed for life or killed then we can all stand around with out thumbs up our asses wondering how it happened to us. Or we can plan this s$!t more safely. I strongly disagree with anyone doing a 180. Also if we dont start the breakoff early it becomes like it always has been everyone just separates a couple hundred feet apart and races for the dz in the same direction. If we need it i am sure we can arrang for cars to pick up the far people. This has got to be properly addressed and Scott please dont take this as a personal attack aside from a couple things your layout is very proffesional and well done. You have to know that there are always parts that will come into question when you plan something of this magnatude. And yes we are breaking new ground but lets not break bones.
There is no other dicipline that does a bigway without doing dedicated camps to prep for the unseen.
Nor are these done at open events because we are still in the infancy of this dicipline it needs to be done in stages hell i am catching slack for wanting to do a 71 way almost a year from now and there is a dedicated camp more than once a month all year. Lets shoot for figuring this all out in detail then people have a foundation to build off. Please dont take this the wrong way i am tired of being hit or coming within a centermeter of my life on an almost weekly bases.
Aside from all these ramblings thank you Scott for taking the time and effort to put this together and I know you are open to critcism just dont take it personal.

Oh ya one more thing YUR STUPID. Ha Ha

I hope i will still get my christmas beer and not a jar of human procesed beer.;)
BUY A WINGSUIT
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I absolutely want a discussion about this to come up with the best possible solution. But Jeff, we have GOT to work on your punctuation ... ;)

Let's say we assume stragglers are following the formation at breakoff altitude in spite of being told otherwise and we enforce a 90 degree or less rule for the formation. We have to consider possible intersecting flightpaths horizontally as well as vertically.

What if the outside wing formations break off as a group (a 90 degree outside turn), move into max flight mode and then pull slightly high.The front groups continue forward at flocking speed, stay in flocking speed during breakoff and pull lower. This might keep people apart horizontally, vertically and in time.

Thoughts?

Scott

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I dont think break off is an issue,

if youve ever done loose big ways like we did in the old days,
[hey that could start a song] :)
I remeber tracking off for only a few seconds with people only yards away from me, , with a wingsuit we get maybe 20 seconds of some serous distance between us,

dont ya'll agree?
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

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But Jeff, we have GOT to work on your punctuation ... ;)



Jeff is too busy gliding at 20:1 to punctuate. :D

Horizontal separation is infinitely more important (or more easily controlled) than vertical separation to me. Vertical separation is great in theory but it's hard to control with varying canopy snivels and response times. Somebody may say he's going to pull at 4,000 ft but in reality pull around 3,500 ft and snivel until 2,500 ft. While somebody else may say he'll pull at 3,000 ft, do exactly that, and be open at 2,500 ft as well.

Vertical separation is worth trying out in addition to horizontal separation (sort of an added bonus), given that:

1) you don't rely on it by itself
2) you start the breakoff significantly higher which equals less formation time
3) everybody is disciplined enough to pull at their designated altitudes

Who's been on RW bigways with staggered pulltimes? What's the first wave of breakoff altitude? What's the last wave?

All that said, I'm not sure it's practical. First wave breakoff may have to occur as high as 6-7k ft (just a WAG). Jumping from only 13k ft, our formations usually are still building at 7k ft.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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What I propose is getting some people in here that have been on the 399 (RW) way (Like Scott, Robi and quite a few others) and listen to what they did on those dives..As hardly anyone in wingsuits has any experience with anything higher then a 50 way (exits).



I dont think Scott has much bigway RW experience, but lets let him speak up about that. I know he wasn't on any of the bigway RW jumps I have been on. I have been on MANY 100+ways, 246way, 300way, 357way, and the 400way, which you keep refering to as 399. Robi was on the Eloy 300way with me through. With all this input from people that dont even do bigway RW, it's no suprise people are getting called stupid. The only way the large ws formation is going to break off safely is with controlled group breakoffs, period. For this to work, this needs to be practiced as a group, or 2 smaller groups, a quite a few times before the larger formation should be put in the air all together. Does anyone think we just threw the 400way up all together on the first day we were in Thailand? Fuck NO! We did smaller group jumps and sector tracking. If you couldnt prove your performance was good on these smaller jumps, you surely were CUT from the larger formation before you have the chance to ruin it for the rest of the group, or possibly KILL someone!

Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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I dont think break off is an issue,

if youve ever done loose big ways like we did in the old days,
[hey that could start a song] :)
I remeber tracking off for only a few seconds with people only yards away from me, , with a wingsuit we get maybe 20 seconds of some serous distance between us,

dont ya'll agree?




I agree Tony. I just don't remember it being that big a deal at the 50 way (exits) at 3.0. And there were even people on it with <200 jumps. The way I remember it, everybody just tracked away and made sure they didn't hit anyone else. It all seemed pretty low stress. Why try to suck all the fun out of it? It's a big ass sky. There's lot's of room when you have wings. With all the rules and dicipline and all that, I hope it's still going to be FUN. If it's just going to be all Bigway RW Skygods, I think I'll pass on this one.

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My biggest anvil-RW experience is 40 people. I've noted that on the records attempts, they kill one or two people every other event on breakoff.

Here's where I'm coming from:

1) We haven't had an issue in the past with how we did breakoffs with as many as 60 people in the air and I don't expect we'd have a problem this time, 180 degree turns included.

2) But, I'm afraid we may be depending on dumb luck to keep us safe. Just because you've done something 10 times without getting hurt doesn't mean its safe.

3) I've watched plenty of big anvil-ways and their breakoff procedures. At preset altitudes, groups leave the formation to open at preset hard-decks. This, plus situational awareness usually results in both horizontal and vertical separation, as well as openings being staggered in time. (Please correct me if I'm missing something important here due to my lack of experience.) One of my last posts proposed a variation on this procedure to allow for our different fall angle.

4) The whole point here is to try to raise the safety bar. "I guess we should have thought of that" is a shitty way to word a note to the victim's relatives. This isn't an exercise to decrease the fun, it's so we can all go home afterwards.

So, if you've got a proposal, let's hear it.

Scott

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The whole point here is to try to raise the safety bar. "I guess we should have thought of that" is a shitty way to word a note to the victim's relatives. This isn't an exercise to decrease the fun, it's so we can all go home afterwards.



But Scott? Some people think that just wouldn't be any fun.......:S


Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Hi Scott,

When I said that skygod stuff I definitely wasn't talking about you. I like your plan and I think you do an awesome job with fnd. It's the people that act like your opinion isn't worth shit unless you've been on all the cool RW bigways that I think suck.

I love the "no bird left behind" philosophy you guys had at the FnD's that I've been to. I'll keep coming down for them as long as it's that type of atmosphere. If it's going to be some kind of "you better prove your skills or we'll cut you" type of thing, then I'm not interested.

I'm all for doing things as safely as possible, but not at the expense of the fun. I realize that the loose bigways with lesser skilled pilots may not be as safe as a super diciplined, slot specific, professionals only bigway, but I'm ok with that. Hopefully enough people share that attitude that it's still worth coming down there for.

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If we come up with a working plan for a breakoff, I will make a 3D animated version of it. Showing different groups in colours.

And I will upload the video for everyone so it can be used for briefings...(untill we come up with a modified version)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Hi Scott,

When I said that skygod stuff I definitely wasn't talking about you. I like your plan and I think you do an awesome job with fnd. It's the people that act like your opinion isn't worth shit unless you've been on all the cool RW bigways that I think suck.



Could you point out 1 person who sayd that?
I havent been on 400 ways, nor do I think anyone sucks who has not been one ANY RW dive.

What I dont understand, is why some people want to completely ignore lessons learnt in the past by 'that other dicipline'.

I truly believe a lot of the wingsuit bigways we've have had in the past, trusted on 'dumb luck' a bit in terms of exit, build and breakoff/opening.

The An72 boogie in germany is a good example. Its the 2nd big wingsuit event there. And on a few dives the bag of luck ran out...and people got SERIOUSLY hurt...and trust me...it sucks te see your buddy on the floor loosing conciousness because of the pain...and it sucks even worse when you realise it was faulty planning and chaos in the sky with people having to perform outside their skills envelope that caused it...

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I love the "no bird left behind" philosophy you guys had at the FnD's that I've been to. I'll keep coming down for them as long as it's that type of atmosphere. If it's going to be some kind of "you better prove your skills or we'll cut you" type of thing, then I'm not interested.



I think you're missing the point..
'Leave no bird behind' is a mental state...
Its about taking a few lesser flyers under your wing, and setting up a dive for them thats fun, and maybe even teaches them some new things. Its about having an open and fun event. Making sure everyone has his own challenges in the jumps they do, and has a lot fun doing so..

But mostly about making sure everyone is doing that within their own skills/safety envelope.

Its not about throwing them in the biggest possible group just for bragging rights, and potentialy hurt or kill themselves or others.


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I'm all for doing things as safely as possible, but not at the expense of the fun.



Funerals are no fun to be at...

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I realize that the loose bigways with lesser skilled pilots may not be as safe as a super diciplined, slot specific, professionals only bigway, but I'm ok with that. Hopefully enough people share that attitude that it's still worth coming down there for.



The word LOOSE and BIGWAY dont go together..
The words DICIPLINED and SLOT SPECIFIC are what you want and need, if hurting or killing someone is not what you want..

Its not about wantig to exclude people...its about SAFETY..

I may be crushing some souls here, but trust me...Im 100% about fun, and enjoying things. Not excluding people.
But what I wish a lot of people could see, is that a bigway is nothing more but a safe 4 way, flying of a few people next to you. But this time with a whole lot of extra people thrown into the mix.

Bragging rights about being in a bigway exit almost seem to be more important then safety...

If trying to make it a safer dicipline means some people cant be on certain big dives, because they dont have the skills to safely perform, then we should trust on dumb luck to be safe.

If I see a less experienced person wanting to be in a bigway, who shouldnt be there, Id rather take myself off the bigway and set up a nice 2 to 4 way, and give him some proper experience flying. Without a ton of extra people to distract..

Im not saying everyone should be doing 4 ways, but try and see that a bigway group at an event, doesnt mean there wont be A LOT of other good dives organised. Maybe not the biggest ever.
But if we keep throwing every wingsuit pilot we have into a bigway, we soon need to start planning 400 ways, as we're growing in numbers incredibly fast.

I see a lot of people rebelling against organised/planned dives, with people who have the skills to BE on that dive.
NO SINGLE JUMP should be performed outside of your own skills envelope. The more jumps you do..the bigger your skills will grow...the bigger your jumps will get...it works this way in every dicipline...you start solo..and work your way up into groups....be it CRW, RW, FF, WS or Sex..

Ignoring safety just to have fun may work for a short while..but at some point we will hit a wall, and end up at somebodies hospital bed, or worse funeral..

Almost everyone flying a wingsuit has some 'fun' story about a near miss to tell as an example....it sadly happens sometimes....
Anything we can do to prevent this from devloping into a story about 'the time two people got hurt/killed when they hit eachother' flying a wingsuit, should be done...

A lot of the stuff Ive posted here is also in an article I wrote for our website..

http://flylikebrick.com/articles/flb_wingsuit_formation_flight.pdf


Just for the record(1)...Im commenting on safety..and not on anyones organising, and certainly ANYTHING but attacking scott bland...There's a few organisers I admire for their thinking, setup and organising-skills, and he is definitely one of those...

And for the record(2)...Im well known here in Holland for promoting stickers saying "RW is OK, just really GAY" and make fun of everyone who walks around in one of those silly action-figure RW suits. RW is NOT my dicipline. Ive done 200 or so RW dives when I started jumping (nothing over a 15 way) Then switched to wingsuits and never looked back.
But that doesnt take away from my admiration for the planning, safety and setup of their bigway dives, and knowing that some RW skills WOULD help some people a lot in their formation flying when it comes to wingsuits.
But NOBODY is saying you need to be a skygod or RW king to be on wingsuit bigways.



And as for skygods...its an attitude, not a skill level...Having a group of highly skilled people jumps together when trying something big and potentialy dangerous doesnt automaticly turn them into skygods...

Its when people start believing their own (online?) image of greatness, and then end up being a big letdown in person, be it in skills or personality, that I would define them a skygod...



We start life with a full bag of luck, and an empty bag of experience..
As we go through life, we use up bits of our luck and slowly fill up our bag of experience.
The trick is to have enough experience when our bag of luck runs out...

Please lets all try and set bruised egos aside, and start thinking about safety...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Hi
First of all wish to everyone all the best in '08.
Let me say few thoughts I have regarding the big way record WS jump.

I think it is mandatory to drag in all experience which all participants may have, including the skill in any of skydiving discipline ( RW FF CRW )
Also, like in any skydive, we always have things and possible problems which require to be emphasized over and over. On WS big way formation, special attention should present too, because WS jump like big way is still new thing for all of us.
In my opinion The big way 70 way or so should be made completely different than this was the habit seen so far.
The point (base) should fly opposite from the flight path ( turning after exit 180 degr. jumping out already like diver) and keep that position.

Building formation this way is the most logical way.... every jumper / flyer following the one in front of him and getting the slot.
Separation is made by plane, picture every flyer would have is clear and full. There is no extra repositioning needed because the formation is stacked by it self too.
Heaving in mind that the formation will not really be example of how the WS flies , rather it will the example how it falls, the approach will be very similar to approach of any RW jumps. Vertical speed will be higher than horizontal - so no need to not to take engineering from RW dives.

Brake off
Same rule as big ways... should be organized in stages w the squadron ( row ) leaders who should be followed in very precise way ( altitude , level, separation )
There is no need to start to discovering the ''hot water'' here. Biggest problem might be how to ''kill'' the ego which were so well developed through the years of WS-ing, which is - ''I smoke youon the brake off''''

Last, but to me the very important issue is the qualification.
For this very jump there is no room to keep up with '' no birds left behind'' policy.
As those guys who were present on RW big ways knows, it is so ...Mistake = OUT!
Sorry, but that is the best motivation factor, most common and best self controlling tool known so far in human kind.
Therefore, guys, there should be no room for ego competition or improvisation of the rules at the spot.
If the leader screw up , he should admit it first , need to be example not the judge protected by self given title.

It is not hard, it is possible but it takes time and discipline.
Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

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I dont think break off is an issue,

if youve ever done loose big ways like we did in the old days,
[hey that could start a song] :)
I remeber tracking off for only a few seconds with people only yards away from me, , with a wingsuit we get maybe 20 seconds of some serous distance between us,

dont ya'll agree?



No, I don't agree. (I've been in 3 bigways where people died.)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I think people need to see the difference from cutting someone for 'not meeting the formation goals', or cutting someone for 'safety'.

There is a huge set of flying skills that comes into flying a bigway, excluding being able to fly within 30 cms of where you need to be (though that would be nice if you intend to build a formation).

Being able to do a diciplined exit, approach, formation and seperation/pull.
Speaking from my own experience. It takes a lot of jumps to develop the sense of what you can do in the air, in terms of dive/swoop/stop/seperation, and developing the awereness of where other people are.

You guys may all be superman, but even at 500 or so wingsuitjumps, I still miss a lot of what happens all around me in a bigway formation during build/flight/seperation. And thats while flying purely on instinct and looking around like a hawk on acid looking for prey. You see a lot, react to some things, ignore others.
But someone still busy trying to figure out how to fly a wingsuit (which I still am, and definitely was up to at least 100 or so wingsuit jumps) is not going to get all that. And if there are no structured plans for seperation, and people dont have the skills to follow plans ('tracking' away in formation, following a leader in a cloud of other flyers) they should be there..as its an accident waiting to happen...

Flying a 10 way people quite often come down having only seen 2 people. Whats the use of there being 50 more people in the sky if its not completely safe for your current skill level?

If we could be more honest about our own, and other peoples skills and performance, we would learn and develop soo much quicker.

Coming down and telling eachother in a debrief what to work on, change and update.
Instead of just saying "great jump..lets do it again and have everyone try and be in his slot" (not talking about any of the FnD organising, just wingsuits in general) or even for unplanned fun flocks...try and see what can be improved..be it speed, accuracy, body position..help eachother get better at what they do..

Individual attention based on what you do can be hard. But if its a good debrief, it will be positive attention. And not a negative slap on the hand (as a lot of people seem to fear).

Being honest about your own skills, and accepting limits on what to do, and what not to do (yet)...its hard..but its the right thing to do if we want to keep it safe.

And looking at yourself..most people will agree that its not smart....but they will disagree when they see a bigway organised that everyone wants to be part off...
As you dont want to miss anything....

Its only going to take one case of 'luck run out' to get someone in the hospital or worse..and perhaps a lot of new rules for wingsuit formation flying at DZs or even bans for being dangerous...far fetched...maybe.....I hope so..

Smaller formations and tighter flying.....wish we could focus on that...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Let me preface this by saying that I have absolutely no experience flying wingsuits, but I have quite a bit of experience organizing larger skydives.

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I'm all for doing things as safely as possible, but not at the expense of the fun. I realize that the loose bigways with lesser skilled pilots may not be as safe as a super diciplined, slot specific, professionals only bigway, but I'm ok with that. Hopefully enough people share that attitude that it's still worth coming down there for.



Sorry, but that attitude is completely unacceptable. The rule of skydiving should always be safety first. I am all for not leaving people behind. I do it every weekend. We have organizers that work with newer jumpers to get their skills up. We don't take a newbie on a 40 way just so that they won't be left out. We work with them and teach them and when they are ready to go to the next level we help them progress.

Not leaving people behind means teaching them, not throwing them into something that is way over their heads and potentially dangerous, because you don't want to hurt their feelings. No bird left behind should mean that no matter what your skill level, there will be people and coaches and organizers for you to jump with. Not that you will be welcomed with open arms on any skydive regardless of skills or experience. That is dangerous and just plain silly.

Just last week I helped organize a 40 way track dive. Someone with 105 jumps asked to be on it. I felt badly about it, but I had to tell him no. Someone with 105 jumps has no business being on a 40 way regardless of whether it is a tracking dive, freefly dive, or heaven forbid wingsuit dive.

I am all for having fun, but there is nothing wrong with having a proper plan for breakoff. There is also nothing wrong with telling someone that they are not ready to be on a certain jump. As long as you have jumps going on that they are ready to be on.

Since there is pretty much nobody in the world that has any real experience with flocks of this size. I think it is wise to get feedback from people of all disciplines. This can only help come up with a comprehensive plan that makes sense.
Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

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I also completely second that....

Its not about not WANTING to jump with people. Its putting them on dives suitable for their experience level.

If you feel bad about not having them fly with you, then quit the bigway and join them on the smaller dive.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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No, I don't agree. (I've been in 3 bigways where people died.)
--------------------------
Wingsuiting?

Because they didn't get enough separation??

how can this be? I open way away from the break off point usually,

on most flocks Ive done its such a work out that at 5 thou I'm OUTATHERE
Life is a series of wonderful opportunities,
brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.

tonysuits.com

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