mbondvegas 0 #1 September 9, 2007 So I was able to make it down to the Cal-City Wingsuit gathering today. After sinking out of the first flock at about half way through the dive, I opted to join in on the GPS races on the next jump. We exited about 3 miles from the DZ at full altitude. The "race" was only from 10K to 6K. As I neared 6K, I decided that I was not close enough to the DZ, so I should pull high. At 6K I closed up to go vertical and pulled. In retrospect, I probably pulled faster than usual. I usually go vertical from 3-5 seconds. I also have an ingrained habit from early on of mentally counting 1--2--3 after pulling. Typically at 3, I'm being picked up by my risers. So anyway...I pulled at a bit under 6K and I thought "1--2--3---what---arch---ugh oh---Do I have PCIT?? Pillow- Metal Pillow Metal...what hit my leg...OUCH." BAM my reserve slaps me hard and imediately enters a more than mild left turn. After releasing the brakes, my reserve (a 250 Tempo) continues to turn left...unless I held down the right toggle 3/4 of the way. This left me with very little flare on landing and resulted in a mild scrape on my left leg from my light PLF. But otherwise I was OK. During this time, I noticed that my main was out of the bag as it floated down and that my reserve cable was kinked showing that my RSL had pulled on it. So, after thinking about what I remember and what I noticed on my gear for the most of my 3 hour ride home to Vegas, here is what I think happened. I think that my PC hesitated in my burble...or perhaps it opened my container but was burbled enough to not be able to pull the bag up....when I pulled my cutaway handle, I think it got cleaner air (via my slight change in body position) and began to take off behind me which allowed the bag to hit my calf as it took off. I think the canopy came out of the bag and began the first split second of inflation after/as I cutaway and began to pull my reserve handle. I think this because (see pic) the RSL's kink is really close to the base of the pin and lower than the position of the RSL ring. That is, I think that I pulled the reserve cable an inch or two before the main pulled on the RSL. As far as the left turn in the reserve...I'm not sure... the opening was WAYYY hard and I might have damaged the canopy (nothing I can see). I have read that Tempo's have a reputation for this. I wonder if it is something that only happens after slammer opening (aka Maybe they are prone to some sort of damage that causes a left turn)...as I had one other ride on this reserve without such an obvious left turn. Anyway, you can see the immediately left turn on the attached track pic. So what can I learn from this. 1. Well because I was pulling high...I could have waited it out at bit longer while slightly changing my body position and maybe it would have deployed. {Note: I was told not to do the typical look over the shoulder to clear a PC hesitation routine in a WS as that might induce a spin, so I did not do that.} But...I did try to close up and arch and gave it a good 7-10 seconds. So, I'm still pretty happy with my decision to chop and go when things where clearly not working right. 2. I have a standard length bridle and a leather hackey on my PC. I'm definitely getting a 9' bridle and plastic tube handle. I have an F-111 PC with 450++ jumps on it. I should probably get a new PC too. 3. I pitched faster than ususal after closing up (At least I think so)...I will ensure that I stick with my 3+ second vertical routine in the future. 4. I will continue to try to have a strong PC throw and to close my legwing and arm wings down. Although, I think I did this well on this jump..but. 5. You tell me. Thanks to Brian for organizing the event and a big thanks to Mike for being the good samaritan and landing by and bringing back my main and free bag! Oh yeah and thanks to my rigger Simon for saving my ass...again!- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsane 0 #2 September 9, 2007 If you had a short bridle and an old PC you were primed for this to happen. When things change slowly (like a PC aging and slowing down deployment) we just keep mentally adjusting until it really goes bad. The PVC tube handle only eliminates potential knotting (which I've seen), not deployment speed. After seeing a hackey go into the base of a PC and cause a PCIT, I switched over to the PVC handle. Fixing the bridle length and replacing the PC should correct your problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #3 September 9, 2007 After seeing a hackey go into the base of a PC and cause a PCIT --------------------------------- me too, I had 2 pcit's in a month on two dif pilot chutes, first one old and got lost then a new one, I have a "wiffle" ball now, havent had the prob sinceLife is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #4 September 9, 2007 Makes for a fun jump with all of that going on. First off it sounds like you thought through the problem pretty well and came to some good conclusions. I would sugggest after the PC pitch on future jumps not to rely on the standard 1, 2, 3 struff and think about looking over your shoulder. This is going harken back to the frst jumpd days with "Arch, Look Reach Pull Check Check" If you have a poor toss and big burble the Check will adjust the position and probably get the PC going. I had a lazy toss a few weeks back and knew it right away as the usual was not what I was feeling. I looked over my shoulder and the PC bapped me in the face but the turn and small roll got it going. Another jump I tossed and looked and saw the PC behind me but not pulling. Thinking back to days of many CRW jumps I started to reach back to manually pyull the pin . The dip in the shoulder with the adjustment in body position let me feel the bag come off my back when I was moving my hand back to pluck the pin. I dont think it was stuck but it was my reaction from previous experience and the motion I did broke the burble I am guessing. All that said I am just saying be ready to be reactive tothe situation. At 6 JK you had time to deal with it. If yo had the same experience at 2.5K then what you did is probably the first thing to do. If you had not gotten rushed and thought about your altitude you might have avoided the reserve ride. Nothing wrong with the ride and your reaction but I hope you take it as a learning experience and dont just go by what yo "felt" usually. As for the reserve turn, it is a tempo. They have a characheristic that a built in turn was common on many of them. If you search the threads I think you will see it. The 3/4 seems a bit much but tempos have been reported to have full flight turns built in. Scott C. "He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdatc 0 #5 September 9, 2007 Any jump that lands you safely on the ground is a successful one, no matter what anyone else says.... I used to have a lot more hesitations when I started flying my wingsuit with the standard skydiving setup.. short bridle, collapasable PC, and hacky handle. On my impact track suit I could even get funky hesitations, and on my phantom the same sometimes..... To me it just wasn't acceptable. So I switched it up, and the last 100 +/- jumps on my phantom I use a 9' bridle, a non collapsable f111 32" pc made by a base manufacturer (pvc handle), and the base pouch... The difference is night and day for me. I pitch full flight and have no hesitation, and for the most part beautiful openings.... Taking very little altitiude most of the time... Not to say I don't get blasted now and again (sabre2 170), But I prefer that over any hesitation.... The other thing is since, since I tend to fly my openings and not 'go vertical' to deploy, I give it a bit longer before I start punching handles... as this buys me a little more time with the lower full flight fall rate. _justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #6 September 9, 2007 One question on bridle length. When we are talking about a 9 foot bridle for wingsuiting, are we measureing from the D-Bag to the Base of the PC or from the Pin to the Base of th PC? My bridle on my WS Rig (a Javelin) is not really that short. It is 8' from the Bag to PC or about 6.5' from the pin to the PC. Nonetheless, I'm getting a 9' bridle, but I want to make sure I'm measuring from the right point. Scott- Thanks for the detailed comments. I think I probably could have avoided the reserve ride had I not reacted like I was pulling at normal altitude. (and then my neck would not be so darn sore this morning) I will definite reconsider how a I think about the WS deployment process. I think this is one of those learning events that all add up to being experienced as one's jump numbers increase. - - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #7 September 9, 2007 Pin to PC. The rest doesn't mean a damn if the pin stays in place. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #8 September 9, 2007 QuotePin to PC. The rest doesn't mean a damn if the pin stays in place. t My thoughts exactly. Just wanted to make sure that is how people were measuring. Thanks! Sot that would add like 2.5' to my bridle....that could help.- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #9 September 9, 2007 Another few thoughts here: -I made over 800 wingsuit jumps where I pulled at 4000 feet. Reason? A couple of horrific mals where I was truly glad I had that extra bit of altitude. The extra altitude gives you the buffer you need to deal with stuff like a towing PC or a brake fire. I pull around 3000 now, but I jump a much more managable canopy. -I have had quite a few wingsuit flights where I towed my PC for longer than I liked. My action, for quite a few years now, has been to arch, bring both of my hands in close to my handles (or on them), then wiggle HARD left and right. I have never had one instance where even a completely de-cocked kill-line PC would not deploy then. Granted, I did hum one down to 2000 before it came out of the bag, but my hands were already on the handles at that point. -Towed PC's generally come from weak throws. Chuck BMCI-4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #10 September 9, 2007 Quote-Towed PC's generally come from weak throws. AND, from wing burbles IMO. I am another with 500 jumps with a hackey and no problems there. Every once in a while I feel it hesitate for 2 seconds longer than I'd like and realize I'm hanging on my arm wings pretty hard, floating (and probably burbling the PC). If I totally collapse and bring my forearms onto my chest, the deployment begins immediately.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #11 September 10, 2007 Couple of questions: Did you collapse your arm wings down completely after you pitched? How are you packing your D -bag into the container and is it a tight fit?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #12 September 10, 2007 QuoteCouple of questions: Did you collapse your arm wings down completely after you pitched? How are you packing your D -bag into the container and is it a tight fit? Yes to question #1. I pitch and then grab/touch my mudflaps. Well, my pack job is pretty darn tight in the rig (a 220 Triathlon with Dacron lines in a J5) and I pack my D-Bag per the Jav specs (i.e. bridle grommet to the top of the rig), but I do have cut-dynamic corners. If the pin is pulled, it opens totally up.- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
basehoundsam 0 #13 September 10, 2007 Scariest mal I ever did see.......... A monkey clad in nylon having a bad day ! :) Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #14 September 10, 2007 I had the pc-in-burble thing a few times in my first few dozen wingsuit jumps, easiest for me was to immediately go back to full flight, it would open - HARD but it would open ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeordieSkydiver 0 #15 September 10, 2007 Quote I had the pc-in-burble thing a few times in my first few dozen wingsuit jumps, easiest for me was to immediately go back to full flight, it would open - HARD but it would open I pitch in full flight, then flare the suit as I feel the bag leave. Opens just fine.Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #16 September 10, 2007 QuoteAny jump that lands you safely on the ground is a successful one, no matter what anyone else says.... I used to have a lot more hesitations when I started flying my wingsuit with the standard skydiving setup.. short bridle, collapasable PC, and hacky handle. On my impact track suit I could even get funky hesitations, and on my phantom the same sometimes..... To me it just wasn't acceptable. So I switched it up, and the last 100 +/- jumps on my phantom I use a 9' bridle, a non collapsable f111 32" pc made by a base manufacturer (pvc handle), and the base pouch... The difference is night and day for me. I pitch full flight and have no hesitation, and for the most part beautiful openings.... Taking very little altitiude most of the time... Not to say I don't get blasted now and again (sabre2 170), But I prefer that over any hesitation.... The other thing is since, since I tend to fly my openings and not 'go vertical' to deploy, I give it a bit longer before I start punching handles... as this buys me a little more time with the lower full flight fall rate. _justin questions on full flight pitching - what is the correct procedure ? is it fly normal pace, quick hard throw and and go back to normal flight ? or do you keep you arms in front of you ie wings closed and do you bring your chest up and go head high once deployment starts or do you stay level ie heading on the horizon? does anyone do this that flies camera ? and do you pack a slower opening or just normal? ciao. ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #17 September 10, 2007 Just saying Full flight is confusing. Other things being equal, the opening speed depends on the speed of the air that the PC is released into. So spreading all wings but flying slow will result in a slower opening compared to doing the same thing but flying faster. I have some interesting video on full flight deployments. Will upload once I get home. Both deployments are from full flight but the first flight is flown much steeper. Video 1(v2Ex4St.mov) is a flight with a steep pitch(angle). The resulting opening is brutally fast. Video 2(v2Ex4Fl.mov) is a flight with a slightly shallower pitch angle. Nice and gentle opening. Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #18 September 10, 2007 full flight - ie my im still traveling faster forward than toward the ground and not shutting down my wings (relates to question) once i have picthed ... ... ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdatc 0 #19 September 10, 2007 Quote questions on full flight pitching - what is the correct procedure ? is it fly normal pace, quick hard throw and and go back to normal flight ? or do you keep you arms in front of you ie wings closed and do you bring your chest up and go head high once deployment starts or do you stay level ie heading on the horizon? does anyone do this that flies camera ? and do you pack a slower opening or just normal? ciao. I don't know what most people think is correct, but.... I just drop the grippers, bring both arms in symettrically, fire out the PC, and then go right back to arms wide open and try to keep flying at my max glide rate angle, or so I feel.... I never close the leg wing. Usually, immediatly, I get stood up after retrurning to full flight, and while staying symettrical get those zippers down..... I jump a camera, and you see lots of leg wing in every opening. My pack job is a pretty normal skydiving pro-pack... I don't flare the suit at all. I just accept the fact I will have a little more swing and get beat up a bit more. _justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #20 September 10, 2007 all i wanted to know tx ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #21 September 10, 2007 Just be aware that doing what jdatc described when using a high performance canopy is going to result in a wild ride! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
