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Sirob

How to learn to fly wing suit - Robibird way

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By reading posts here at DZ.com I see that there many people are starting to fly wingsuit in different ways.
Here are some of my experience how to learn to fly WS.
This is the way how my brother (Robibird) is teaching me and other friends here. Hope you will find this useful.

Important to mention - primary objective at the beginning is to really learn how to fly WS and to feel the speed and glide, other stuff like flocking are next step.

As novice wing suit flyer, first suggestion you will hear from Robibird is to forget about any data about your vertical speed - don't look at all to your Dytters. Your body and mind should be the only learning instrument and tool.

First couple of flights are done pointing at safety, to get used to new environment (exit techniques, restricted movements, new sensation of flying instead of falling, opening, etc...). After you gain some self-confidence we are learning performance flying. Knowing the right body position and understanding aerodynamics of wingsuit is the key that helps you to understand what is happening to you while flying. We can not have better teacher than him, can we?! :)
We start to jump away from dropzone with only one goal in mind - fly back to the dropzone - anyway you can. Each flyer is making his own exit point, that way you are the one who is controlling your learning curve and you can see by yourself how good or bad you are.
Robert is occasionally flying with us to check how we are flying and to show us how much we can improve.
He is not catching us, we have to catch him and fly with him. This jumps are really great and priceless.
I was sweating in order to catch him and was really tired but you learn so much from this kind of jumps...

After certain number of distance chasing flights he is telling you to try to fly as fast horizontally as you can, no matter of vertical speed. It is really big surprise to many flyers when they find themselves flying their best flights and that is the moment when many flyers get the idea what is wingsuit flying.
Main goal is the distance you fly and than time (or slow vertical speed) will be there as well.
Learning performance flying is hard work, very demanding for body and mind but once you get it, whole new world is open for you.

Once you learn how to get maximum performance out of your flights, flying at slower horizontal speeds, some flocking is not complicated at all. It is than kind of slow motion if you compare it to performance flying you learned. I found very easy to start flocking after knowing how to get the good performance.

Regards,

Boris

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That's an interesting read, Boris. The way I read it, though, leads me to believe that you guys think that all we here in the states care about is vertical speed. That's simply not true. We train a ton of students here in Z-hills. I trained a ton of students before that in the years I was at Raeford after Jari and I first met.

To be perfectly clear: what we teach is how to get out the door stable, "find the sweet spot", and fly a safe, pre-determined path back to the DZ without running into anyone. Lastly, how to pull with stability. After that first flight, we include novices on as challenging a skydive as they can handle. I don't know anywhere where they do not designate a person base and have everyone else form up on them. That base generally flys slow enough for people to catch up, then picks up the pace to keep people working at improving their performance. Unless you have jumped with any of us, you really can't say at all how we do things here. Some of us have been at it a very long time (comparatively, seeing as how the first USA BMI's weren't "made" till 2000).

Robi is a fantastic wingsuit pilot, great designer, and I really like him, but he didn't want anything at all to do with "training" when he was with Jari and I know he still doesn't like flying with others all that much, or so he told me. You get over since he is your brother!:)
Ultimately, there are many ways to skin a cat. While Robi might now like to teach "start fast then figure out how to slow down later", we here do something different. We start "comfortable and safe, then work on both slower and faster flight". Neither mindset has produced any "better" students overall as far as I can tell.

Chuck

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That's an interesting read, Boris. The way I read it, though, leads me to believe that you guys think that all we here in the states care about is vertical speed. That's simply not true.
Chuck



You got to admit Chuck there is a great deal of use of " the numbers" in reference to personal performance. I wouldn't say just in the states but in the world of wingsuits and specifically this forum.

You can't help the single WS pilot on the dropzone using it as reference as they don't have any other source of information. I haven't looked at times in several hundred WS jumps personally and I can't tell you what they are in my latest suit. But more importantly I can tell you the distance covered, I can tell you how much more I will have to work to catch the very best flockers, that I have the opportunity to jump with, when we are both maxed out. I can tell you we don't see tandems anymore from the same exit point as they are several thousand feet below us now by the time we get over their loitering area.

All of this would be easier if I flew from fixed objects, but I don't and I don't rely on timers or GPS.

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Your impression is wrong Chuck. :)I simply wrote how are we doing here without any thoughts towards anyone.
For everything there are more than one way how to do it. I am not saying that mine is correct and your is wrong.
In circumstances we have here (small Cessna and 9000 ft exit altitude) we found that is the best way for us.

My impression is that most of the WS flyers are using vertical speed as only judgment of their performance.
You can easily see that by reading posts here. This kind of perception is not coming from space but is generated by somebody....

I don't want to be Robert's speaker but he is in skydiving for 25 years, instructor for 17 years and he had many students in the past. Maybe his way of teaching is bit different than common (those who might know him can tell). :)It is true that he is not so interested in teaching people but somebody have to design,test and produce all this WS and run the company too.

Boris

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Boris,

By any chance will we see you at F & D in Florida? You sound like a fun guy to fly with, and you might enjoy the planes we have out here.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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Relax, Boris is not a terrorist.

He and Robi may be shifty eastern Yuropean types but seem ok in general.

People outside of the US may think that your President is a Buffoon, but we don't hold any ill will agaisnt most of the rest of you!;)

I suggest you read Boris's post again and take it at face value.

I know people at my local DZ that tend to focus on the freefall speed to see how good they are doing on wingsuit flights, it's the easiest thing for them to measure.

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People outside of the US may think that your President is a Buffoon, but we don't hold any ill will agaisnt most of the rest of you




wait, you need to be outside the country to think that?... i'll buy a ticket after flock n dock:P

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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I think it is important to make a distinction between "learning to fly a wingsuit" and "wingsuit progression".

I doubt anyone would argue that being dropped 3 miles from the DZ and told to fly back on their first ws jump is a good idea ;)

Boris is talking about progression after you have learnt your wingsuit survival skills.

I agree with Boris' ideas for progression and regret I wasn't more informed when I started jumping WS.

When I started there were rarely other people around to jump with and I made about 150 'fun' solos in my first 200 ws jumps. It wasn't until I started ws BASE that I realised that I still didn't know how to fly my wingsuit! (as early video of my jumps shows) I could do a 2m+ freefall with a classic but I was barely flying a 1:1 glide ratio.

I'm not saying you need to do ws BASE to learn to fly for distance, following Boris' description is better (and much safer!)
BASEstore.it

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You know, I don't think I have 40 solo wingsuit jumps in over 1400 (to date). The only time I fly by myself is when there are simply no others to play with, but there is a tandem to swoop. I just don't get off on solos and GPS tracks, etc, like alot of people do.

I AM very keen on Robi's "progression program" in that context. People will only get better by jumping with superior jumpers who can routinely smoke them and train them new tricks as well.

Chuck

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People will only get better by jumping with superior jumpers who can routinely smoke them and train them new tricks as well.



IMHO
People will get better by understanding what they are doing and trying that by themselves.
Jumping all the time with the fastest and the best is useless, it can make you only frustrated (I know from my own experience).
You have to check your skill with better than you occasionally, when you have problems or chance to do it - but not that often.
Jumping solo keep your focus on the important things and therefore progress is better and faster.
As I said before, it is not easy but at the end - whole new world is open for you.

Boris

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I find exactly the opposite, actually, Boris. What I find is that people who only jump solo and "test themselves" against their clever gadgets (GPS, etc) typically don't do all that well flying with others as they are simply not used to it. Many proclaim their fantastic ability, but just don't measure up in real life. They are washy in slot and some of them are very zoomie since they are not used to keeping their eyes on the base or keeping watch for high pullers (like tandems and CRW guys). It's a double-edged sword. I have a great appreciation for those who truly do kick ass in both realms.

Chuck

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The best "training" jumps I ever had (in terms of learning to make the suit perform better) were all solos, but they had massive frame of reference for me to watch. I'd imagine that if you have the appropriate visual cues (not gadgets) they can be quite useful. I bet the huge Florida summer clouds can be good for this (and probably less harmful if you screw up than some of the other options).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Hi Boris,
Very interesting observations and views. I had not ever really given it much thought. However, after reading the posts, what comes to mind is that there are two very different ways of flying wingsuits, and Chuck points this out in the previous post. (and I apologize if this is obvious to everyone but me) You can flock or you can fly (maxing it out so to speak).

It reminds me very much of the two very different realms of belly flying, first the relative work, and then, the tracking off to pull. It is really what we do in flocking without even thinking about it.

When flocking, you fly your slot, you control your suit in whatever way you can to place your body exactly where it needs to be in the formation. You track the base (or your designated reference) as best you can in three dimensions. Then at pull time, you track, slowly, head toward your break-off direction, and then, transition into a maximum performance flight (best GR) configuration.

Both RW and Max-Flight skills are required when flocking. Either way, being good in one realm can only help in the other. What has become apparent though is that when you are flying alone, you can do whatever you want, but, if there is one other object in the sky, you best have the skills to be aware and fly with them or the result might not be so good.

I'll add that I fly with a GPS and a Neptune. Data points taken every second and/or every 3 or 4 seconds, and , I do look at the results. If I am flying base, I want to see a flat line vertical speed on the Neptune, If I am flying solo and going max, I want to see a GR that is less than 30 degress on the GPS. There are times when I thought I flew a great base and when you look at the data, it is not pretty, Then again, the opposite has been true.

Using the electronics is a good way to calibrate your brain. After all, at this point, our brain is pretty much the only instrument we have up there that gives us real-time feedback, and it works better calibrated.

I take data for fun. I'm old, so, if it isn't fun for me, I'm probably not doing it. :)
I say, bring your best of both skills to F&D!! See you there! Caw-caw...

--Mike
Play like your life depends on it.

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Teaching ''student'' ( by student - I mean someone who is fresh in general with whatever discipline of our sport) or teaching experienced skydiver is not the same.
Heaving student organized and prepared for jump is different. Bother such person w fine tuning is just useless.
''Student'', no matter what you talking will focus on the parts of the jump were HE things HE is the weakest.
Instead of talking for hours about whatever, better is to recognize those segments and help student to go through it easier.
Faster student cover each segment , faster learning curve is.
For example, insist on not to be washy, or expect that one will not be washy or to expect the one will hold good proximity to other flyers is waist of time if student has no sufficient experience in RW jumps....in other words, for skilled RW jumper WS formation is super easy if he knows how to use the WS.

Unfortunately, Wingsuiting as discipline is very often presented way more complicated than actually is. Why, that is another subject to discuss...

Skill comes from knowledge and practice, knowledge comes from understanding. If there is no understanding about something, than it is so easy to fall in to the trap of making tons of jumps without improving at all ( goes for every discipline in our sport). Understanding how WS works is and always be my #1 subject to my ''student''.

That is why I think is good to show and teach people to use WS first for flying as best as you can.
Of course, Heaving Z-hills as the DZ or some smaller DZ is different thing. What is popular here is not popular at some other place so... it is not all in our hands anyway.
Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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What I find is that people who only jump solo and "test themselves" against their clever gadgets (GPS, etc) typically don't do all that well flying with others as they are simply not used to it. Many proclaim their fantastic ability, but just don't measure up in real life.



What about people that claim that they "out-popped" someone and then the other person comes here and tells the exact opposite story?:P

This is one of the barriers that jumpers have to overcome when trying to learn in the skydiving environment. So what are the options?

a) Do what is suggested in this thread.
b) Use a GPS.

Flying for glide is about the flyer and the air, there is no place for anyone or anything else.

I am sorry to keep repeating this but it is worth repeating...

Looking at someone or something means you are not flying your best.

Like Robi said, it is not hard. People that want to fly for distance/glide figure it out, most people that don't learn this can only blame themselves. Most people do not care or think they fly really well anyway.

Kris.

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Learning to make slight adjustments and corrections, and small movements, which is something you don't do much unless you are flocking, can be very useful in learning to "fine tune" your performance flights.

Quite honestly, if you want to be really good at anything, cross training in related disciplines is going to help you improve. Flocking and performance flying are related disciplines, and learning to do either is likely to help you improve at the other, provided you maintain your focus on whichever you are doing at the time.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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What I find is that people who only jump solo and "test themselves" against their clever gadgets (GPS, etc) typically don't do all that well flying with others as they are simply not used to it.



Quote

Using the electronics is a good way to calibrate your brain. After all, at this point, our brain is pretty much the only instrument we have up there that gives us real-time feedback, and it works better calibrated.



We don't use gadgets at all to show us how god or bad we are flying - remember Robibid first suggestion?
We all know how useful are data form those electronically devices. Only BASE can give you really reliable data about your glide ratio.

What you can do is - look at the map of your DZ (or play with Google Earth), find some references at certain distance out of DZ, memorize them and try to fly from one of them to the DZ. Than it is very easy to look at your progression by just watching the ground. Runaway you are using can be also excellent reference.

For dilema alone or in the group, here is one similarity with running. You can run solo or run in group. If you want to improve your speed you will have to run alone otherwise you will be always limited by the speed of your group.

Mine goal is to learn performance flying and after that performance flocking.:)
I have something like this on my mind - http://www.muspryz.it/apocalypsesnowleretour/
Check end of the trailer or look some photos in the March issue of ParaMag
http://www.para-mag.com.

Of course, I have seen much more of that footage...B|B|B|

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Tom,

Strongly Disagree. :)
Boris has given some good reasons.

If you know for a fact that small adjustments have to be made during a performance flight, please share the knowledge with us. As far as I know, once the best gliding speed is reached, the flyer needs to be as still as possible and maintain the angle.

Hopefully, Robi will share his thoughts.

Boris,

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We all know how useful are data form those electronically devices. Only BASE can give you really reliable data about your glide ratio.



At our DZ, it is not possible to choose a spot to exit and fly back. Due to airspace restrictions, the airplane can only fly in a 1.5 mile radius. It is not possible to fly in a straight line for the entire flight. Use of GPS is mandatory. The numbers I got from wind corrected L/D matched very closely the numbers I got from BASE jumping with the GPS (at ITW) and based on the known distance and exit and opening altitude at Smellveggan.

Electronic devices work, we just have to use them sensibly.


Kris.

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If you know for a fact that small adjustments have to be made during a performance flight, please share the knowledge with us. As far as I know, once the best gliding speed is reached, the flyer needs to be as still as possible and maintain the angle.



If you are not able to make small adjustments (or large ones) on a BASE jump of any kind (which includes many performance wingsuit flights) you are going to be in trouble sooner or later.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Only BASE can give you really reliable data about your glide ratio.



I think this is a very common misconception.

As shown here, the first (at least) 30s of a WS BASE jump have strong dynamic effects (planeout) that cannot be ignored if you're serious about analyzing data not just amusing yourself with seemingly unhuman glide and fallrate from your GPS. You can extend the planeout to ~50s by constantly bleeding forward speed by small deceleration (which you don't really feel, it's less than 0.1g, or only about 2mph per second). It's just like a swoop, really!

Once you step off the edge in wingsuit, you don't suddenly become a superman by the virtue of doing WS BASE and all visual ques you have. Gravity gives you initial vertical speed exceeding your sustained speed, you then transform this kinetic energy into exceedingly fast forward speed and slower fallrate, and you then bleed this extra horizontal speed into better glide and slow fallrate. Your L/D, though, is not really better than what you can do on a thoughtful skydive. Just like during a swoop, the L/D of the canopy does not magically become infinite as you fly level, it's the same 3.0 or whatever it is at this angle of attack. Basic physics!

It may sound unorthodox, but I think unless you analyze WS BASE data by transforming it with the formulae at the above link into real L/D (Oyvind of VKB is doing this, kudos!), the best training for improving L/D is long sustained "frozen" flights near clouds so as to minimize fooling yourself with dynamic effects and see real L/D.

Quote

What you can do is - look at the map of your DZ (or play with Google Earth), find some references at certain distance out of DZ, memorize them and try to fly from one of them to the DZ. Than it is very easy to look at your progression by just watching the ground.



What glide ratios are you guys getting by doing this? Are you correcting it for the wind? How do you work with this data? For example, if you're getting 2.0, then improve to 2.2, 2.4 and kind of reach the limit there, how do you know that there's no, say, 2.8 by using a different flying technique? (e.g. balancing the suit, maintaining angle of attack control, taking it's dependency on both pitch angle and glide angle itself (which in turn depends on AoA and so on) into account)

Yuri
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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It may sound unorthodox, but I think unless you analyze WS BASE data by transforming it with the formulae at the above link into real L/D (Oyvind of VKB is doing this, kudos!), the best training for improving L/D is long sustained "frozen" flights near clouds so as to minimize fooling yourself with dynamic effects and see real L/D.
----------------
yes you got it. but i think that flying in the clouds helps your reference even more, but only if they are the fluffy kind and not the wet bad ones.
enjoy.
---------------------------------
canyon bar

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Using electronical devices for measuring can help but people tend to become addicted and focus more on them rather than flying feeling itself. I am not against them, especially if you have situation like Kris, I am just saying that there is nice and simple way without them too.

Robert is jumping without GPS (unless he play with new toy).
His Dytter is often fooled by his flights therefore all data are useless but still he knows how to fly.

I don't know what GR I have and I don't care too much about it (yet :)Luckily, in skydiving it is not question of life or death and for checking how good I am, I can always make jump with my brother. B|

Jumping from the same altitude (more or less) over known environment from known points is beneficial for me and can give me good information if I am improving or not. Chasing something is always better than nothing, but I think clouds are not that good reference as points on the ground (if you have clear skies ground is always there).

I simply enjoy this way of learning WS. Once I become good flyer, I know that Robi will enjoy to flock with me rather than flying on brakes with me. :)
Making things simple rather than unnecessary complicated can keep your focus on the right things.

Boris

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the first (at least) 30s of a WS BASE jump have strong dynamic effects (planeout) that cannot be ignored if you're serious about analyzing data not just amusing yourself with seemingly unhuman glide and fallrate from your GPS. You can extend the planeout to ~50s by constantly bleeding forward speed by small deceleration (which you don't really feel, it's less than 0.1g, or only about 2mph per second). It's just like a swoop, really!

Once you step off the edge in wingsuit, you don't suddenly become a superman by the virtue of doing WS BASE and all visual ques you have. Gravity gives you initial vertical speed exceeding your sustained speed, you then transform this kinetic energy into exceedingly fast forward speed and slower fallrate, and you then bleed this extra horizontal speed into better glide and slow fallrate. Your L/D, though, is not really better than what you can do on a thoughtful skydive. Just like during a swoop, the L/D of the canopy does not magically become infinite as you fly level, it's the same 3.0 or whatever it is at this angle of attack. Basic physics!

Quote



What is your point Yuri?!
Strong effect of plane out?! What you have when getting out from the plane?! Strong effect of ''whoooosh'' or what?! You CAN have the same positive or negative sides on both exits. it depend on the pilot only. You can make the same mistakes jumping from the plane as you do in WS BASE start.
The ''plane out'' is the most common mistake BASE WS flyers does on their jumps. The ''plane out'' with WS is actually stalling and once you do this, outcome is known.

Quote


It may sound unorthodox, but I think unless you analyze WS BASE data by transforming it with the formulae at the above link into real L/D (Oyvind of VKB is doing this, kudos!), the best training for improving L/D is long sustained "frozen" flights near clouds so as to minimize fooling yourself with dynamic effects and see real L/D.

Quote



why?!
How about to cut 150 m of start and 150 m of opening and get rough info of glide? It is all about how you look at the GR. If you wanna take out just the part of the jump were you flying after diving for 300m , than this, in my opinion is one way of talking about , what GR is. If you look entire jump , from exit to opening( like you do when jumping from the plane) that is the another way. Right?! I think we need to find out about what system we talk.

You know, if I would dive for 300+ m and than ''plane out'' my glide ratio in my WS will be well over 3.
Is this reality?! What G.R. I am getting?!

Hey, In France we have good Map w good scale . This w the measurement tape we get info what is possible what not. It cost about 5 € tape + map and it is very accurate-believe me!

Quote


Quote

What you can do is - look at the map of your DZ (or play with Google Earth), find some references at certain distance out of DZ, memorize them and try to fly from one of them to the DZ. Than it is very easy to look at your progression by just watching the ground.



What glide ratios are you guys getting by doing this? Are you correcting it for the wind? How do you work with this data? For example, if you're getting 2.0, then improve to 2.2, 2.4 and kind of reach the limit there, how do you know that there's no, say, 2.8 by using a different flying technique? (e.g. balancing the suit, maintaining angle of attack control, taking it's dependency on both pitch angle and glide angle itself (which in turn depends on AoA and so on) into account)
Yuri[/
Quote



Knowing basic references near your DZ is always good because it gives you immediate info if your flight is crap or good. Using Google earth for anything more than this is pointless.

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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