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unclecharlie95

What is "popping"?

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but I could not out-pop Jeff on his belly; his suit is simply much bigger.



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where both he and I could "out-pop" each other vertically on our bellys.



What does "out pop" mean? Never heard that term before.

Were you in a stall / flock or flying at a reasonable glide?

J


edit for thread title ~TA
BASEstore.it

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What does "out pop" mean? Never heard that term before. ***

Really? You mean you do not know what it means to pop up or drop down? "out popping" someone is when you are both cruising along and you both hit your max-lift position and one accellerates upwards faster than the other. The faster you are travelling forward, the more popping power you have. The ability to pop up is very important when you routinely train students and coach like we do. Students who typically do not fly very efficiently at first, but then figure it out and take off both vertically and horizontally. A larger suit with the ability to "out pop" the lesser suits we put our students in is very important to us. It's a quantifiable (by video) trait we look for in a suit. Both of the suits I am talking about have tremendous range in that regard.

Chuck

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Seriously, I never heard of "out pop".

By the way you describe it - it sounds like you are talking about changing the suit from a stall to making it fly (and produce lift rather than just drag)?



I am doing nothing of the sort, James. What I am talking about when I describe "pop" is the ability to go up vertically, very-quickly, no matter what your forward velocity might be. Inefficient students are not usually flying in a "stall"; they are flying in a "sinking" body position. "Stalling" a suit to me is when you are flying too ridgidly, you lose forward speed, then it starts wobbling back and forth and you lose both your speed and lift. You BASE-specific guys always want to call flying dirty(to any degree) "stalled", but that's not what it is. It's just "dirty", and yes, it's more of a sink than a glide. You are really confusing things when you decide among yourselves that there can only be two terms, "flying" and "stalled" with nothing in between. There is a full range of flight available to wingsuiters. It can be as dirty as falling nearly straight down on your belly, to easy gliding, to sinking or popping, to maximum performance horizontal flight. That's even leaving out the dynamic backflying, vertical diving and recovery, etc, that we throw in the mix. A parachute being flown in at half brakes is not "stalled", it's in a sinking configuration. Same with an airplane with the power off: VsO is a very different glide angle than VsI, but neither would be considered "stalled flight". One just has a longer glide and a higher airspeed than the other.

Chuck

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I have never seen the term "out pop" in an aerodynamics text book and so asked for clarification. I find the term confusing.

We are a form of unpowered aircraft so surely we can find a more "aerodynamically" sound way of describing a suits flight performance.

Stall is when an airfoil stops producing lift and most usually occurs when the critical angle of attack for the airfoil is exceeded. The airflow going over the top of the wing (or in our case wingsuit) completely detaches.

It has been my experience that the majority of flock jumps are performed in a stall, with complete air flow separation (based on my observations jumping with streamers, smoke and threads attached the top surface of the suit). If you don't believe me wear smoke on your foot during a flock and watch external video of it recirculating up to your head.

But hey, who cares! I'm not saying that you were stalling or that flocking is bad or not fun, I enjoy flocking immensely and attended all the big way events last year Z2/Russia/Cochstedt!!!

I am just trying to understand what you mean and maybe together we can come up with a better way to explain it...

J
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Not sure if I can help clarify the term exactly but I saw what Chuck was talking about when we did a first flight with Ward this last weekend.

Ward exited nice and stable, did his practice touches, and began flying his suit, legs out and flat. A few seconds later, he "popped" up when he found that by changing his body position, he could achieve both forward and upward motion (slight change in his hips and arm postition). He was flying around 78 mph and after popping up changed his vertical descent rate to about 65.

The term "pop" is definitely not a technical term but is widely used here in America wingsuiters.

On that note, the term "caw-caw" is widely used here as well and you're surely not not likely to find in any aerodynamics books either...:P

Katie
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he "popped" up when he found that by changing his body position, he could achieve both forward and upward motion. He was flying around 78 mph and after popping up changed his vertical descent rate to about 65.



hmmm, your explanation still isn't making it any clearer for me.
BASEstore.it

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hmmm, your explanation still isn't making it any clearer for me.



How about this?

Popping up: Effecting a relatively instantaneous transition in flight modes from "dirty" flight (air separating over the back to a greater extent) to "clean" flight (airflow staying connected to a greater extent). A suit with more "pop" is able to transition more quickly between these states, and also has a greater flight range between the two states (i.e. the "dirty" flight is further from the "clean" flight).

The ability to "pop up" is a desirable characteristic in an instructors suit, or in flocking, because it gives the ability to quickly match a wide range of flight profiles, when a flock or student may be altering flight profile dramatically in a short time.
-- Tom Aiello

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SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Just to clairify, Chuck exited on his belly (in a Blade) and me under him on my back (in a Mach 1), as we flew along the Mach 1 was clearly getting more lift and more forward speed while still on its back. When we where on our bellies together the Mach 1 had even more range vertically and horizontally. Chuck at one point did a fast 90 degree turn, made some separation and punched it out, I had no problem closing the gap. The Blade is the same size as our Raptor. The difference being a Raptor has shorter wing tip grippers and a straight trailing edge, where as the Blade has V1 lenth grippers and scalloped wings making the effective surface area nearly identacle. The legwing "width" is identicle but the Raptor's legwing legth is a couple of inches longer. We started out with longer wing tip grippers and found they caused more fatigue, so we shortened them and moved the suface area to the wing root. This made the suit easier to fly and led to longer flights. I am 5'11", 190lbs. out the door and have flown the Raptor for 182 seconds from 13,500ft. to 2,500ft. I have done 204 seconds in a Mach 1.:ph34r:
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"dirty" flight (air separating over the back to a greater extent)

"clean" flight (airflow staying connected to a greater extent)



I like that you did not use absolutes here. I.e. separating "to an extent" and staying connected "to an extent." This is in line with what Chuck was saying about flight not being binary (either flying "ON" or falling/stalling "OFF").

Even the most efficient wingsuit flying only has laminar flow to an extent. We are air displacers as much as we are gliders. :D
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I'm still not sure I'll adopt the term "pop"...



Although it's not a precise technical term, it has the value that it "feels" right, at least in the American vernacular. The term "pop" or "pop up" very clearly captures the feeling of that quick acceleration, for the average american hearing the word(s).

Besides, imagine how much fun you could have using the term in videos that were watched by germans. "And here, Chuck is poppen up on Jeffro--those wacky Americans..." :P
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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have flown the Raptor for 182 seconds from 13,500ft. to 2,500ft. I have done 204 seconds in a Mach 1



41 mph avg in the raptor
36 mph avg in the Mach1

You definately should make your way down to Russia and MarlB|
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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The term "pop" is definitely not a technical term but is widely used here in America wingsuiters.

On that note, the term "caw-caw" is widely used here as well and you're surely not not likely to find in any aerodynamics books either...:P



It's not just in America.:)
t
It's the year of the Pig.

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Besides, imagine how much fun you could have using the term in videos that were watched by germans. "And here, Chuck is poppen up on Jeffro--those STUPID Americans..." :P


_______________________________________________

Nice:)
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I have a hard time understanding why an experienced skydiver has not ever heard the term "pop", but that's besides the point. When a four-way FS team does a vertical move, one group pops up and over and the other group sinks a bit then levels out. CRW guys pop up and over the back of the formation and fly down to the bottom when they are doing rotations.

We, as wingsuiters, are FAR from "unpowered aircraft". At best we are "super trackers" with aerodynamic aids. We are far more akin to parachutes and ought to be defining our gliding terms more in common parachute terms than out-of-some-book aerodynamic terms.

Only in the best of maxed-out performance jumps are we anywhere near creating lift as James and some others are trying to categorize it. MOST wingsuit dives are not flown maxed out. MOST wingsuit jumps are leisurely flocks. Some pretty fast and clean, some pretty dirty. I simply refuse to refer to flocking as "stall flying" which has become vogue in some circles. Saying that only flat-out wingsuiting is flying and subordinating all other flight modes is simply not going to cut it. At least not here.

Stalling is a condition where something stops flying and is not controllable. Are we creating lift? No? But we sure as hell can exhibit control, so therefore we are not "stalled." We are definitely flying so long as we are in control. Still, if you must use aviation analogies, I will just ask you what you call a Harrier when it is in transition mode? Is it stalled? Nope, it's flying just fine. We as skydivers in wingsuits simply have a tremendously large transition mode. It goes all the way from falling straight down to maxed out flight. It's semantics. As the GREAT MAJORITY of wingsuit flyers cruise along in that middle ground, we need to be more open minded when it comes to defining "flying".

That is all. I need to go outside and make my fourth wingsuit flight of the day.

Chuck

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I have a hard time understanding why an experienced skydiver has not ever heard the term "pop"



Aside from the movie 'cherrie poppins' I once downloaded, I also never really heard anyone use this term..

We usualy just call it upfloating or lifting..just like the other diciplines call it?

And I believe there are different ways of doing so.
You can go to full flight to win those few meters, but you can also do a massive push to get back up to someones level by pulling a wingsuit in a near stall. Transforming all forward speed to lift for a few seconds, and just as you would start falling out of the sky, continue flying.

The second method is the one used most often in my experience, as it enables you to gain a few meters, without overshooting the student due to more forward speed..

But tons of different suits, peoples never have the same weight or build, and theres more then one way to fly...B|
JC
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And I believe there are different ways of doing so.
You can go to full flight to win those few meters, but you can also do a massive push to get back up to someones level by pulling a wingsuit in a near stall. Transforming all forward speed to lift for a few seconds, and just as you would start falling out of the sky, continue flying.

The second method is the one used most often in my experience, as it enables you to gain a few meters, without overshooting the student due to more forward speed..



I am talking about both actually, Jarno, as both apply in the kind of skydives I routinely do. You might have to simply pop straight up a meter to do an over-under, or you might have to pop up and speed up at the same time because the flock leader (or your student) changed the pace suddenly. Your "upfloating" episode in the flylikebrick series shows version 1.

By the way, those are fantastic visual training tools and I show them alot to people we coach here at Z-hills.

Chuck

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I have a hard time understanding why an experienced skydiver has not ever heard the term "pop"



Aside from the movie 'cherrie poppins' I once downloaded, I also never really heard anyone use this term..



It may be a difference in slang terms used on either side of the Atlantic.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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