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mbondvegas

Prodigy Before 200 Jumps?

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I've put over 100 first flight students in Prodigies, and less than 10 in Classics and GTi's in the last 2 years (mostly due to fit). I've seen many a pull with the leg wing fully open in all types of suits, but I've never seen the front flip or even someone completely head down at pull time. Maybe my next student will be kind enough to entertain me that way.:P

The one piece suits do seem to be easier for the first timers to fly well but require a lot more ground time to demonstrate the hook up and operation. The Prodigies are less restricting and easier to hook up, and freefliers don't have to remove their butt bungie. The prodigies seem to have a lot less gear fear associated with them among those that have not yet flown.

I never found the Prodigies to be at all difficult to fly, just a bit more tiring on the shoulders, but I had more than 100 wingsuit jumps before I tried one.

BB- I can't reach my toggles (standard RWS risers) in a Prodigy without unsnapping either, and I have tried in too small, properly fitting, and too big suits! I've not had a problem re-gripping my wings in any suit that had long enough sleeves for me. Maybe try it in front of a fan (or propblast) on the ground where you can see where it's going when you let go?

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Hi,
When i receive my Prodigy, the instructors here in Bulgaria (non wingsuit pilots) didn't allow me to jump whit it, because they heard i have to have 500 jumps to do this. After few months of negotiations i started to jump without any instructor adsvises and only with info from the net. At this time I had less than 150 jumps experience. According to me compare to any other suits this one is very easy 2 use, and I haven`t got any problems with it.

Plamen

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stop kidding dude...;)
when someone gets unstable during the pull on a prodigy this person gets unstable with any other suit....the prodigy is close to "idiot prove"...:$
when there was a problem, than maybe because he choose the "wrong" pull habbit for this particular suit..
imagine a guy who only knows a nascar takes a ride with a volkswagen, that looks always funny...
i think for a beginner in ws flying the prodigy is the weapon of choice....
and when you can fly it...it kicks ass....

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I do not find suggestions, to the effect that brand name allegiance biases an instructor’s recommendation, credible.



i guess i'm in-credible then. you aren't the first person to say that about me. B|

for the record my recommendation is- do more jumps before putting a wingsuit on.

my opinoin of the Prodigy is that it is an excellent choice for FFCs and as a first suit. this is based on my own experience of only about 300 wingsuit jumps spread mainly accross GTi, Prodigy & V1 (i have a few jumps on various other suits) and experience of teaching 20-30 FFCs to people in both GTi and Prodgiy

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BB- I can't reach my toggles (standard RWS risers) in a Prodigy without unsnapping either, and I have tried in too small, properly fitting, and too big suits!



you only need to reach your risers to adjust heading after opening

after you avoid whatever youre avoiding take a sec to unsnap..


side note- ive been able to reach me risers during inflation on almost every suit ive ever flown...


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must say that here in south Europe region I have not heard about any student performing front loop on the pull, regardless of the suit they wear.


I know a basejumper who has done this on a wingsuit jump in switserland...
That was some nice footage... :S

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must say that here in south Europe region I have not heard about any student performing front loop on the pull, regardless of the suit they wear.


I know a basejumper who has done this on a wingsuit jump in switserland...
That was some nice footage... :S



You mean Gino's video?

That was looking for a (lost/missed)hackey and bending over forward in the process..

Not really related to any balance issues of any suit or the current subject I think...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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BB- I can't reach my toggles (standard RWS risers) in a Prodigy without unsnapping either, and I have tried in too small, properly fitting, and too big suits!



you only need to reach your risers to adjust heading after opening

after you avoid whatever youre avoiding take a sec to unsnap..


side note- ive been able to reach me risers during inflation on almost every suit ive ever flown...



I didn't mean to imply that not reaching my toggles is a problem, but that it's normal and you don't need to. In my Vampire the best I can do is reach the big rings and that's enough to get me out of the occasional line twisties before unzipping. (I'm a bit shy about unzipping without a landable canopy after having had to cut away once unzipped- freefall's not fun when you can't control your armwings.)

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you only need to reach your risers to adjust heading after opening

after you avoid whatever youre avoiding take a sec to unsnap..



As a blanket statement that's just not true.

I fly a 269 sf canopy, and even though it's tapered and loaded at 1.3, it does nothing quickly. Especially if I haven't had time to stow my huge damn slider and open my cheststrap. Even then, rear riser turns are ponderous.

My emergency turn at opening procedure is to harness shift while reaching up and grabbing the brake line above the toggle. By timing myself, I've found that that's the fastest turn I can generate in the shortest time possible.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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I fly a 269 sf canopy, and even though it's tapered and loaded at 1.3, it does nothing quickly. Especially if I haven't had time to stow my huge damn slider and open my cheststrap. Even then, rear riser turns are ponderous.



I fly canopies of that size and larger quite regularly. If you want faster riser response, you ought to consider changing the type of canopy, which is a far bigger variable than the size. An Ace 280, for example, has very snappy riser response, where a FOX 265 has much slower response to riser input.


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By timing myself, I've found that that's the fastest turn I can generate in the shortest time possible.



Can you explain why you decided that performing the turn in the shortest amount of time was the important factor? In general, I'd think that performing the turn in the least amount of forward distance would be the thing to worry about.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Can you explain why you decided that performing the turn in the shortest amount of time was the important factor? In general, I'd think that performing the turn in the least amount of forward distance would be the thing to worry about.



In a skydive the collision object is closing with you, and the ability to quickly get out of the way seems like it'd be more important. But I freely admit, I'm still young in my jumping career, so if I'm wrong, please let me know.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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In a skydive the collision object is closing with you...



If the thing you were going to collide with was another canopy, wouldn't it also be turning away from you?



Not always. I've seen head-on collisions where one of the jumpers was unaware until impact or a split second before hand.

-Blind



-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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If the thing you were going to collide with was another canopy, wouldn't it also be turning away from you?



Not always. It's possible they may be looking down, or up stowing the slider. I have also seen people just freeze up and do nothing while on a direct collision course.


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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i fly a 265 fairly regularly as well. and as a blanket statement that most certainly is true.

a toggle wont help you if you cant reach it before impact, be it a brain-dead skydiver who still hasnt turned (to the right, i might add..)or a large and rather stationary and unforgiving object...

try your harness shift (pick up opposite leg from desired direction of turn) while going straight for risers, and pull like it matters...

there is no faster method wearing a ws. period.


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i have trained more than 50 first timers with less than 200 jumps and no issues, the key is to start with tracking suit, Dont just give then suit and send them off, YOU MUST go with them to asses the progress!!!!Correct when need be. ACT AS INSTRUCTOR.
Do what needs to done for best of student, not what suits you feel is pain in ass!!!!If we are to teach, than we must teach,not pass out suits and treat this like no big deal or feel pissy cause we missed a hot load and not give student full attention....
The prodigy, if it fits right,allows the "fear factor" to dimminish, make them wear suit, get comfortable, remenber..muscle memory takes ten + repatitions to develop, not 1 pratice pull!!! Do your job as instructors and see what happens.
the prodigy allows student to have less to deal with, no zips,booties!!! RANGE of motion, if they are scared, the can go back to boxman position isnt that what is taught to ALL students for stability issues?
Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived




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Well, this is all good information. I agree with Islandman & ScaryPerry on their comments. ScaryPerry actually did my first WS training with a Prodigy suit. I agree mostly with Chuck but wanted to add to it. First, I think that the 200 jump guideline is a good one but like any guideline there will be people who are ready earlier and later than that. I think an understanding of WS deployment and practicing it on a tracking suit is a 1st step to the transition. I happened to have 155 jumps for my first Prodigy and 185 jumps for my first GTI flight. Second, like all things the Prodigy has pros and cons. It gives up some ease of flight for greater arm & leg mobility to make deployment and landing easier and to make the suit much easier to put on. Chuck is right that the arm wings are a bit small to balance with the extra wide leg wing. The other thing is that unlike a full WS its wings rely solely on the tension you put on the wing to produce lift so the suit takes more muscle to fly it. I personally found it a good first WS to jump and despite being strenuous on the arms it was a blast to fly. My final advice is to continue your WS deployments on the tracking suit and then get with an instructor who can evaluate your skill before flying the Prodigy. Goodluck and you're going to love flocking!!! ;)

-CG-
WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

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Chuck is right that the arm wings are a bit small to balance with the extra wide leg wing. The other thing is that unlike a full WS its wings rely solely on the tension you put on the wing to produce lift so the suit takes more muscle to fly it.



Interesting... usually i advice student to push leg wings as much as they can and not to stretch arm wings completely, in order to fly properly and not to stall the suit....

Unfortunately very common misconception in thinking about flying. Putting tension on the arm wings does not mean that you producing lift. What you getting? You getting sensation of ''lift'' but that ''lift'' is the WS in stall or very near stall position. actually you are falling slow verticaly, also horisontaly you hardly moving forward.. that is not flying (that is common flocking style now days) For example, if you put simple streamer and if you see that angle of the streamer is ~40 degree or more, easily you can call that falling were forward movement is done by air deflecting, not by any lift..

If you want to move forward , every WS , incl. prodigy should be flown so that arm wings are stretch, but not so that trailing edge is straight.

Personally during flocking, I prefer to see flying style were the legs are stretched all the time but the body arching and de-arching in order to control forward and vertical speed. yes - it is harder , yes - it is more demanding, but also, is way more fun and way more flying too.
C'ya at Z-F&D :)
Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

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old thread so what the hell... I started wanting to jump wingsuits before i had 200 jumps, talked to a bunch of people about it, including a Birdman Instructor, and they gave me some pointers, so after some track-only dives i borrowed a Prodigy and took off.

Last one out of the plane, stable exit in direction of flight with all wing material collapsed, then slowly expanding the wings. A few seconds later my priority was handle checks, 3 of them, then i went back to trying to learn the wingsuit. After some variations in flying speed and a long slow turn back towards the dropzone i started running through the pull sequence in my head, then at 5000 i minimized the wing surfaces, arched and pulled. No issues. And that was with around 150 skydives.

Prodigy is harder to fly well than the phantom 2, but due to the fact you don't have the restrictions of a full suit with the prodigy that's the one that i'd recommend, plus it'll make the phantoms or t-birds easier when you want to step up to a flocking level suit with some great performance.

More practice and trying different suits, i now have an S-bird which I love...

So, if you know what you're getting into then the 200 or 500 jump stuff is fucking stupid, or maybe it's meant for the normal skydiving public who will always try to progress faster than their skills warrant, be it multi-ways, canopy size, low turns, freeflying, base jumping, or wingsuiting

be willing to live with the decisions you make, if you're not sure about it, then do more research till you are sure.
"What kind of man would live a life without daring? Is life so sweet that we should criticize men that seek adventure?Is there a better way to die?" Charles Lindberg, August 26th, 1938

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So, if you know what you're getting into then the 200 or 500 jump stuff is fucking stupid, or maybe it's meant for the normal skydiving public who will always try to progress faster than their skills warrant, be it multi-ways, canopy size, low turns, freeflying, BASE jumping, or wingsuiting



Hehe, love that one. Yeah, it is meant for the normal skydiving public, not for you because you are the greatest superhero of all, the instructor of Batman and Superman! Just kidding, not offending.

Get real, the 200 minimum is there for a good reason. One may be well known as talented or skilled, but you never know how he will behave after exiting the plane with a WS ending up in a flat spin. A couple of extra jumps don't make you a far better skydiver, but they give you experience and routine. Both are important live-saving ressources when things don't go as planned. Of course this will never happen to any of these 100-jump-wonders, whatever they do, may it be wingsuiting or swooping. If they die, then all other 100-jump-wonders will declare them as stupid, ignorant persons, and they will do it with a damn arrogant smile.

Once more, I am not offending somebody in person, I am just criticizing the attitude. When I give FFCs, I always check the jumpers out on a check-dive. It can be RW or tracking, or FF but then my wife has to do the checkdive. Everyone who shows a good attention to height and safety procedures is welcome, when he has at least 200 jumps. Those who are lacking those skills get a training plan, even when they have 10000 jumps. Or they go to another instructor, or just give it a try on their own. But I never want to be responsible for letting someone jump who does not fit the basic requirements.

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