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mccordia

Birdman Skyflying team

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Great flying and excellent pics - thanks!

Question - in pic#2 (the V formation with the tail) how did you set that up? Who was base and who was following who?

Mike



heyhey,

The formation in this picture was flown with most people looking a person they are flying relative to, and a second person they are referencing for the distance.

Bo was flying base (first row, right)
Im flying relative to Bo (second row, right)
Steve is also flying relative to Bo (second row, left) but is also watching me, and keeping a slot open in between us.

Costyn (first row, left) was flying on Bo, while watching Steve and me, slightly behind him, from the corner of his eye for the distance (sideways)

David (3d row, white suit) is flying relative to steve and me, and tries to stay exactly in the middle of us to, and dropped back a bit.

And Duncan (4th row, black suit) is flying behind David. Trying to fly relative to him (eating his tailwing)

And all flyers are cross referencing, trying to keep the distances the same.

Most jumps we worked with a base/person you fly to, and a second person you cross reference for the distances.


We scared RW people quite a bit....the DZ was filled with wingsuit flyers on creepers, and freeflyers also doing quite extensive dirtdives..B|
JC
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We scared RW people quite a bit....the DZ was filled with wingsuit flyers on creepers, and freeflyers also doing quite extensive dirtdives..B|



I dout it scared them any, but most other jumpers that don't fly a wingsuit think wingsuit flocking is just zooming around the sky.
Unfortunatly, there are alot of flockers that do. [:/] Having these setup's, cross referencing, leaving slot's open for another flyer to fit into, and holding steady in your slot when you get there, are all part of making a beautiful formation. But, after one formation is complete, it fun to transition to a second or third too. Flying just one formation for the entire skydive can be very boring, but flying clean multi point wingsuit formations are alot of fun.
Most wingsuit flyers I've seen these days have no idea what relative work is, and it would be a great improvement to their flocking knowledge if they studied the dynamics of how large RW formations are built, and flown aswell. :)
Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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After one formation is complete, it fun to transition to a second or third too. Flying just one formation for the entire skydive can be very boring, but flying clean multi point wingsuit formations are alot of fun.



Most of the team members had not seen all that many complete formations, with every flyer in his slot, yet. Maybe its photos or videos that have been hidden on the net somewhere, but before starting to go for 10 point dives, our main focus for the week was to work on getting a good formation there, flying for a whole dive. And not just a formation being there only for the 3 seconds before breakoff.

There have been so many beautifull formations, big and small, in the past years. But there's always a few stray birds.
And comparing it to RW or freefly. Its great to fly a 20 way with two or three people not in their slot. But we still call it a formation, even though not everyone was in. When in RW and freefly, they would call it incomplete, and try again.
Its hard to tell someone he sucked, but over this week. The whole group was quite serious and honest towards eachother, in terms of what to improve, and who did what perfect.

And even though it may be boring to some. Hugging in between two people, and trying to keep the formation flying, complete and looking clean, is quite a challenge.

But next to the pictures posted here, there was also quite a bit of multipoint 4 way stuff done. The video of these (and other jumps) should be online in a few weeks.

Hope you guys like those as well!
JC
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Agreed, Mike. The "double base" (or "rear base", depending on how you look at it) has been discussed before but I was doubtful to how well it would work out. They did it very well in the photos.




We used multiple bases several times at Cochstedt last year. When done correctly the results are very good.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
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There have been so many beautifull formations, big and small, in the past years. But there's always a few stray birds.



Agreed. I have seen very few pictures of "complete" formations. This is what is most compelling about the shots you've posted so far. Keep them coming.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I have seen very few pictures of "complete" formations.




This is exactly why alot of flockers, that have been flying wingsuits for a few years, are not wanting to do larger formations. Too many zoomies.......
Staying in smaller groups and flying cleaner formations is what I'm hearing alot of people want.


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Most wingsuit flyers I've seen these days have no idea what relative work is, and it would be a great improvement to their flocking knowledge if they studied the dynamics of how large RW formations are built, and flown aswell. :)
Be safe
Ed



There are several types of wingsuiters, many really. But it is interesting to see what skydivers that have experience in RW bring compared to what very experienced VRW skydivers bring when they put on a wingsuit.

Guys like you ED or BillVon bring easily detectable big way/RW "spillover" skills compared when flying with say Fritz or Loic and Kathy in a wingsuit for example, who brings the huge FF mentality/ Skill set when they are in a wingsuit.

That Zooming aimlessly across the sky thing deters a lot of jumpers from trying a wingsuit sadly enough.

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Yup I think that having some RW bigway skills is definitely a plus. Not all have them, some might not even have been doing bigway RW before doing the wingsuit bigways. Anyway one thing I would like to see when doing bigways in wingsuit in generel is more diciplin as we know it from RW bigway formations. Example: Say you have a slot and the guy you are supposed to fly right behind is a little late, then you should actually leave a little space vertically and horizontally so that the missing guy have a chance of reaching the slot. Everybody is racing for the formation and filling in as best as they can no matter who is missing, keeping some from reaching their slot resulting in incomplete formations. If you on the other hand wait for the missing person the wingsuiters behind you must detect this and keep there waiting position behind you as well. Shouldn't wait forever, no...

Another thing is the guy missing might have been involved in some serious wingsuit kong-fu-fighting during exit, often a reason for being late, which is another common thing that organizers should have focus on. We have to stand really tight in the plane and exit quickly.. I would like to have some more space or a better and more rehearsed by everybody exit-plan-system that works. It can keep the sudden and expensive dentist bill's away :P

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one thing I would like to see when doing bigways in wingsuit in generel is more diciplin



I think this is more the problem, then the overal skill level..
It doesnt matter that much what someones history is RW, FF, or just wingsuits...as long as people fly diciplined. Fly their slot, and most of all...recognise which dive they should or should not be on yet.

If theres some RW of freefly guys doing challenging 20 ways, people with less experience, or not so superb skills, would not get on that jump, out of fear of fucking up. They would practice more smaller jumps, untill they did have the skill level.

In wingsuiting, especialy at boogies. Its quite common for everyone from 20 to 1000 wingsuit jumps, to all be on the same bigways dives.
Someone being a good friend is quite often more important then the skills he or she has.

And Im not saying people should not be allowed to be on jumps.
But we should try and work more towards getting those people up to speed (skill and dicipline wise) on smaller jumps, before we start going for big, bigger, biggest..
JC
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Based on my experience I find that wingsuit big formations are just RW bigway formations in the horizontal level. It adds some additional challenges to RW bigway challenges already there, yes. But the fact remains that if you are going slot specific, the same kind of diciplin may be needed and that is my sole point here. Not to start a debate about RW vs FF experience and so on. And yes people with say 30 RW jumps may not be allowed on a 200RW bigway skydive and that is basically okay. They will join later when they reach the required skill level.

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Based on my experience I find that wingsuit big formations are just RW bigway formations



Try and get 15 way RW-dive to fly 'no-grips' and you get excactly the same level and horizontal distance issues you get in wingsuit dives..B|

Some of the people in Spain came up to us, bragging how they flew a 12 way (RW) no-grips. Saying it was hard..."Welcome to our world" was our answerB|

Side subject - new picture is up here
JC
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This is a good discussion to have.

I don't want WS formations to become as strict as the RW discipline (can sometimes be) but at the same time I do see the benefits of being selective.

I guess for me I do not see a partial WS formation as a "failure" like the RW people sometimes do, we still flew, we still learnt something and still had fun :)
You can give the less experienced flyers slots on the outside and rear of the formation where it is less of an issue if they don't make it in. BUT at the same time if they zoom around the formation causing a hazard then give them a warning and worst case put them back on small ways.

I think we will see "selection" starting to take place whether we like it or not but I hope it remains rare. Granted we could certainly do with more discipline ;) Just as long as we don't stop smiling...

J
BASEstore.it

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I guess for me I do not see a partial WS formation as a "failure" like the RW people sometimes do, we still flew, we still learnt something and still had fun Smile



I know..but sometimes the "smiles and fun" cross over into dangerous.
And thats where it wouldnt hurt..

The dicipline is getting too big to keep adding more and more people to dives and expect it to stay safe...

We dont have to take all the fun out of it...but a bit more dicipline.
And at times working to show people whats possible...its great...

And thats what our TopGun group is all about....
Not about egos, but a fun group of people, who love to fly and have fun, while trying to fly good, complete formations (and some other cool stuff we have planned)

Real happy to see this discussion..its stuff we as a team spent quite a while talking about before we went on this training camp.
Its great to see more people are thinking this way, wanting to develop this part of the dicipline more..
JC
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And thats what our TopGun group is all about....



wouups, sorry for the highjack.. I am just looking forward to Cochstedt here B|



Its not even about a thread highjack...as this stuff is the excact reason why this group formed...and its stuff we should be talking about more..
JC
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flying the same suits surely helps keep adjustments to a minimum




I think Having a base that all can follow and that can fly stable the whole jump is no. 1 thing to focus on. Thereafter it is up to the individual to adjust the suit to just be there. if you need to struggle to keep up with the pace the base is going to fast forward or is too floaty so the heavier flyers is falling out...
Bo Wienberg

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Most wingsuit flyers I've seen these days have no idea what relative work is, and it would be a great improvement to their flocking knowledge if they studied the dynamics of how large RW formations are built, and flown aswell.



Good point Ed, I think this applies equally to freeflyers too. In-air skills mean nothing if you don't have the discipline and awareness to fly your slot responsibly.

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flying the same suits surely helps keep adjustments to a minimum



Its still diferent body types, weight, skills and style of flying you have to take into account..

We determined pretty early in the week that two of our teammembers werent that good at flying base:$
Its true skill (a skill Bowie has mastered to perfection..he rocks!)
JC
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I am going to agree with James here, with a caveat. There are plenty of photos of us doing larger-than-20-way formations where the front ten or more people are incredibly tight. True, as you get past the third row on some formations the gaps loosen up, but saying those looser flyers are "not in the formation" is BS. In my opinion, on those loads the best flyers simply must be setting the example up front, and staged at various points a bit farther back. That gives the less experienced flockers very stable targets to line up on. As people get better at maintaining relativity, they get to move up to the very-tight leaders. Eventually, entire 20-plus-ways will be flying with 12 inch gaps. There are plenty of people flying right now that could get together for such "perfect" skydives. Problem is, it's hard to get them all on one dropzone. In the meantime, I don't have any problem with the structure of all of the current and past wingsuit events. Everybody benefits from jumping with better jumpers.

This truly is a discipline where bigway experience and tight freefly skills help. My second-ever wingsuit flight (in 1999) was a seven way with three docks led by Jari H.M. Kuosma at Carolina Skysports. I took to it very easilly. Some don't. It's these nice large events that we put on these days that get's those "not so naturally talented" birds on the right track.

On that note, I took a Z-hills jumper here up on his first and second flights yesterday (in a Phantom) and he positively smoked it. All I could do was look up and go "nice job!" His second jump involved two docks, him doing over and unders, and even a backfly attempt! I really love it when people like that simply materialize and are instantly qualified for bigger and better things.

Now for the caveat: like the TopGun guys are doing overseas, I am totally down with doing smaller, very-exclusive, technical flocking weekends. We end up breaking down into such groups anyway at our Flock and Dock events. This upcoming March Flock and Dock 3.0 will be no exception. Big-way stuff with everyone involved, and smaller groups doing very tight and clever formations. I can't wait.

Chuck

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