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VectorBoy

BMI hypothetical spin off

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This is not the ages old dead horse topic about who can and who can not instruct in wingsuits. This is a hypothetical question fresh to DZ.com although its been hashed around the bonfire at some wingsuit gatherings.

What would happen to the BM instructor rating if Birdman international ceased to exist?

The question is based on the western regions belief that overall PFs offer more performance and the sales ratio (locally) of 20:1 ,no exaggeration, to anything else.

On the forums it appears that Tony suits are saturating the markets elsewhere. Offering several models with more coming all the time, some customization and unbelievable delivery times. Even without their wingsuit sales they have a respectable chunk of the regular skydiving clothing market, which is larger than the demand for wingsuits. The same could be said about Matter. Wingsuits being a smaller portion of their overall sales.

Although all kinds of used suits trade hands, mostly older BM suits and the classifieds have all kinds of suits even the S3 that we all love. I rarely hear of new BM sales locally.

The latest high end bm suit S3S has been around for over a year, despite its newer repackaging as the S6 with delaminating graphics.

BMs biggest volume product seems to be instructors and with this of course comes more FFC even though these nuggets may not get a BM suit over something else offered on the market for whatever reason.

Without BM what would happen to the BMI and its rating?

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PASA the South African parachute association actually have a wings suit instructor rating seperate from anything BM does. The course outline and legalities are pretty much the same but through the course not one specific brand or type of suits is propagated. Our first two chief instructors were Tonto and Taya Weiss whom are both instructors and BMI's. They have now trained up 6 PASA wing suit instructors of which some will become wingsuit chief instructors in the future to move the whole development forward by one generation. Thats how we dealt with the issue.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

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Not unlike the "advanced instructor rating" that Rob Laidlaw successfully petitioned the USPA to implement, there have been at least three different people petitioning USPA to implement what they believe to be a single USPA wingsuit rating. Whether or not any are successful will depend, ultimately, on the individual's "schmooze power." I think it's a great idea personally. It might end all the BMI versus PFI nonsense here on the forums. Shit, nowadays it's fairly rare that folks don't have both ratings.

Don't be confused, Glen, Jari sells a lot of suits. You don't get backed up on orders unless you are selling.

Regardless, the BMI rating (particularly the current version), is free-standing and is a great course. It would not lose validity as a reputable course of instruction even if the company were to disolve (as you seem to predict). It was the first course, is still the most challenging course, and anything else anyone else has is a copy of it.

I really like the fact that PF decided it was in their best interest to have their own program. It's the responsible thing to do. The days of letting a guy with over 500 jumps just read a one-page slip of paper on how to sew up a suit and then go give it hell without any supervision are over. That's irresponsible. Hell, there are some companies out there selling suits without so much as shipping any sort of instruction manual with them! That's nuts. Still, I do know that Robi didn't care about the BMI program at all when he was with the company.

So, in conclusion, I could give a rat's ass whether or not the parent company (any parent company) fails. If you are rated; rated by ANY company or national organization; then you are immensely more qualified to teach the discipline than some Joe on the DZ who bought a suit in the classifieds and taught himself how to fly without dieing. I equate that to some fool asking a stinky freeflyer who jumps a crossbrace with under 1000 jumps for "canopy coaching" ,instead of the PST pro-rated guy who is also an AFFI and has a PRO demo ticket. It's simply not the smartest way to learn.

Chuck
don't fuck with me; I'm retired.

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The days of letting a guy with over 500 jumps just read a one-page slip of paper on how to sew up a suit and then go give it hell without any supervision are over. That's irresponsible.



Please don't take this the wrong way. I've read a lot of your posts on here and I have a lot of respect for you, but...

Dude, that's not fair. That's how I learned. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I know it's not easy to fly them really well, but with a little research and common sense it's just not that hard to do it safely. I don't think I'd have been any safer when I started if I had taken a FFC. I've listened in on a couple since I started flying wingsuits. They didn't go over any information that I wasn't able to find.

I don't want to say that FFC's are a scam, but I sure as hell don't think they should be mandatory. I'm all for people trying to make money doing what they love, but let's be realistic. Most people don't need a class from a "certified" wingsuit instructor to learn to fly safely. I think most people's money would be better spent on a "coach" learning to fly better.

What is a guy like me supposed to do when someone wants to try out one of my suits? Send them to Florida to see a real BMI? Or just say no and keep doing solos all the time? That's bullshit. I give them a cd with all the stuff I downloaded when I was researching it and I let them borrow the book I bought off Scott Campos. Everything they need to know to fly safely is there.

I sincerely hope you people aren't successful in getting the USPA involved in this or making FFCs mandatory. The last thing in the world that this sport needs is more rules and ratings and another reason for USPA to get into our pockets.

But what do I know, I'm just some "Joe on the DZ who bought a suit in the classifieds and taught himself how to fly without dieing";).

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Actually Chuck I'm not predicting (and not hoping for that matter ) of the vaporization of bird man int. My post is labeled Hypothetical for this reason. And you are right I don't pretend to know any companies volume of sales, not even PFs. It just seems that out here Cali to BC everybody is getting some pF. They're like hot cakes. To be fair I just heard of a cluster of local orders for some bM suits ,actually the first in about a year that we've heard about, but that really means nothing either way.

But I don't agree with your post , without the parent company as a reference wouldn't being a BMI be just like being a "factory certified delorean mechanic"?

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The days of letting a guy with over 500 jumps just read a one-page slip of paper on how to sew up a suit and then go give it hell without any supervision are over. That's irresponsible.

Chuck
don't fuck with me; I'm retired.



Unless there has been some massive revision to the BM instruction literature that is exactly how its stated as recommended, its the minimum recommendation but its in there, page 4 paragraph 1. I think you wrote it. Q= Still irresponsible?

Most people that taught themselves to fly a wingsuit around here did it on a borrowed classic. There were plenty of them unused hanging in team rooms and available in the ghetto. With minimal discusion and rarely any manual available.

What is funny was that for some of those nuggets that wanted some mentoring, one on one not unlike the way the CReW dogs do it, it wasn't that easy. The witch hunt against unrated mentors a few years ago made it verboten for an experienced wingsuiter to mingle with someone who looked like they were about to go up for their first flight, unless of course the chosen mentor was rated. But unescorted they were fine based on the 500 jump rule above. I would agree that was irresponsible.

That witch hunt is part of the whole BMI legacy. To me it falls under the shenanigans category. But this is off the topic of ( hypothetically ) what would become of the rating without the parent company and without any adaption by our governing body of system for wingsuit ratings?

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I charge zero dollars for a FFC, but I do charge rent on my suits sometimes. Why, because they get fucking trashed (right, Jason?). I charge zero dollars for coaching because I am a full-time wingsuit organizer and am going to be on damn near every load anyway. Also, I don't need the money. No one gets left behind at this dropzone. No one got left behind at my last DZ either. I am not sure what you are using as your frame of reference, but it's definitely not me personally.

Also, I do have a big problem with under-qualified people (with less than 500 jumps) just finding a suit and going for it. I really have a problem with people with under 500 jumps and no ratings of any kind teaching people to fly wingsuits. None of you are going to change my mind about that. It is irresponsible. It might be OK at your DZ or on your rock, but it's not OK most places where people actually fly wingsuits much. Once again, none of you are going to change my opinion about that. I have been at it far too long and have seen the consequences.

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Its not my intention to change anybodys opinion about unrated instructors. Just pointing out that an unrated mentor might be better than nothing at all. Although nothing at all seems to have done just fine also.

I'm curious as to what negative consequences you are refering to in your post above. I've seen excellent flying from the self taught and what I couldn't regard as flying from rated , experienced bird-men. It comes down to the individual.

But this is taking us back to dead-horse territory, years old and off topic which is:

Would the unsupported BMI become a " betamax repair man"?

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Note that a lot of the reason why the manufacturer's ratings exist is for demonstrating the proper use of their products. Mainly, hooking them up and emergency procedures. But being that all/most other forms of skydiving have official instructor ratings regardless of gear (AFF, CReW, FS, etc), I don't see why there couldn't be one for safe and effective wingsuit flying.

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But being that all/most other forms of skydiving have official instructor ratings regardless of gear (AFF, CReW, FS, etc), I don't see why there couldn't be one for safe and effective wingsuit flying.



If you read the spin off thead, WS'n is a discipline, as is FF, CRew, skyboarding, etc. In the USPA there is no rating specific to those disciplines, just recommendations.
If other countries had ratings, the people should post them in that thread. I noticed someone mentioned that SA has them, yet didn't post in that thread[:/]


Funny that people can't get away from talking about 'instructiing' compared to glenn'ps real question.

if you saw bird-mans new's letter, the delays were caused by a few things and also big move, yet i'm surprised that others didn't know that and post it when people were posting about their delayed BM suits. oh well.

if BM or even PF ceased to exit, i'm sure the ratings would stil be 'honored' yet i could see [former] BMI's going to PFIs. I could see less [former] PFI's going to BMI's tho due to ill feelings. I'd hope that would mean that people look for training from experienced pilots with qualifications, as they have in the past.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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Also, I do have a big problem with under-qualified people (with less than 500 jumps) just finding a suit and going for it.


how about 475? or 503?

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I really have a problem with people with under 500 jumps and no ratings of any kind teaching people to fly wingsuits.



how about somone with 400 jumps (of them 250 WS on various suits) or 525 jumps (w/ AFF-i and 30-40 ws jumps on 1 or 2 suits)?


BTW i dont expect a reply

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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I charge zero dollars for a FFC, but I do charge rent on my suits sometimes. Why, because they get fucking trashed (right, Jason?).



I/we base our suit rental on if we know the persons landing ability -- if we ship off demos we are going to charge for rental with a clause for repairs -- because yes some mofos can't land standing up and other fuckers like to take shit apart to see how it works


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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Dude in retrospect I was sooooo lucky with my loaners. I never put anybody in a wingsuit that couldn't land their regular gear. If their legstraps didn't look clean I told them to come back when they had more jumps. I only really had one slight abrasion from an ass landing, accidental and one grass stain from a low swoop knee drag that was intentional ( the drag not the stain ) on two different suits. That shit that you went through with your loaners was evil.

Way back in the day few BMIs had spare suits and relied on the factory demo box which was loaned to BMIs mainly for boogies. After the UPS uninsured shipping debacle BMIs were encouraged with discounts to maintain spare suits of their own. So back in 04~05, Jason my man, there is a possibility that you guys were the most "self equipped" instructors. I feel for some of my friends that have gathered a personal squadron of demo suits ranging from 5' to over 6' that are useless to them for anything but instruction. They have every right to charge a rental and maintenance fee.

But I apologize this is off topic.

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