saly 0 #1 October 15, 2006 Well it happened, 19yrs and 2600 jumps since my last one, I had not one but two chops in a row. I have posted here and not in the incidents forum for a specific purpose. Incident forum seems to often elicit tangential responses and my reason is that it is wingsuit specific. One of the biggest fears a new wingsuit pilot has is what will happen when you have a malfunction with your restricted movements and how will you deal with it. Almost like having your first chop again. Running through the two chops. The first one was a two way flock from 10K the day before and deployed at 3.5 stable and in the boxman, as soon as I had line stretch I knew there was a problem. Initially two line twists so I could not lift my head back, these cleared quickly but a radical rotation had developed. My initial reaction was with my arm wings still zipped up, reached my right riser and pull it to stop the rotation, I have done this before to good effect. When I could look up the slider was caught in a pressure knot at the cascades and the rest came down to drills and training no other way out. Make sure the wings are shut down, good boxman position clean EP drills so I was in the saddle and cleaned up by 2k. Our DZ at Cato Ridge is on a plateau with virtually shear 1000 foot drop-offs into a valley with rural homesteads and riverine bush. The spot was also a bit out and I opened over the edge. I dropped my ripcord and lost sight of my freebag and main due to a desire to get to a safe landing area away from some nasty power lines and terrain. My thought was that I was now in he market for a new system! The terrain is such that it is near impossible to find lost equipment if it lands off the DZ. My first point of search also confirmed this. I then went further down the road into the valley and low and behold there was a shinny silver thing in the road, my ripcord! ( what are the chances? Punters on the DZ suggested I get a lottery ticket, my luck was good) The rest was easy(ish), downwind in a straight line on the far slope was my main which I recovered and with some help from the locals who pointed out my freebag in a thorn tree and was painfully recovered. So take two, first flight of the day 2 way flock, on a borrowed rig from the CI and exactly the same, pressure knot and radical spiral clear decision for chop, close wings, boxmanposition, pull handles (keep them this time) and land safely with the main and freebag on the dz this time. The important things of the lessons learnt. • GET INSTRUCTION. My first few flights I did the read the manual and some reading up ask a few questions and jump. Tonto and his crew visited us a few months back and gave us instruction and if it was not for this I think the outcome may have been different. • CURENCY. A malfunction on a wingsuit is a high pressure situation given the constraints and if you are not up on you game, don’t play! • DRILLS. When you make the decision to chop you start a chain of events that you must carry out like clockwork and don’t waste time. I am confident in the boxman position without having to cutaway my wings come reserve time, I have no control of them if I do. • ELLIPTICAL CANOPIES. The first cops was from my old favourite canopy a Pintail 144. The pressure knot was most likely line dump from loose bungies and the second on a Spectre 132 supposedly docile non elliptical. I have given thought to my position on deployment being the cause but I was stable and wings shut down both times. I think I will be putting the Pintail into retirement and going non elliptical none the less. I hope my experience assists any wingsuiters that have any doubts about these fundamentals of wingsuiting. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #2 October 15, 2006 Steve, you mention the boxman position several times. For clarification, are you going into a RW boxman body position during your deployment sequence?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #3 October 15, 2006 Hey Scott The body in the student hard arch with legs and arms closed, like a banana, stable and as solid as a rock Maybe wrong term, boxman minus arms and legs I think I would rip my wings off to get into the boxman --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #4 October 15, 2006 Steve, it sounds like you might have a packing or possibly equipment issue that is causing the problem. Have you jumped either of those canopies with a wingsuit successfully before with no issues?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #5 October 15, 2006 I am certain it is a packing problem. The pintail even though it is elliptical is what I have done all my wingsuit jumps on. Its gave me some line twist on my first few jumps but not in the last 30 odd. I love this canopy even though it has a generally bad reputation, done 500+ jumps on it and never had a problem. When I packed it for the jump I debated the line stowage with myself (not mad but analytical)if I should take a double wrap of the bungies or not. In the first instance if I took a double wrap it could potentially cause the d bag to spin on deployment if there was to much tension, or take one wrap with the risk of line dump which I did. With high insight I should have replaced them. On the borrowed rig, I did not pack it but it has been used for wingsuits before without a problem. It is a second backup rig and with a 2 month old packjob? I would prefer to keep using the pintail but I think the dynamics of a non elliptical are better for wingsuiting. This weekend was playing catch up on chops I think. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #6 October 15, 2006 First off, good on you for living! What container are you using? Your Vortex II as listed in your profile, or are you jumping another rig entirely for wingsuit? Regardless of what container you are using, do you have your corners modded at all? Are you packing "pin to grommet"? Do you have a stock length, or an extended bridle? Are you throwing your PC with everything you've got? That last bit, about a strong throw, can make up for alot. A weak throw is a prime cause for linetwists, particularly in wingsuits. Make sure you throw strong and keep your shoulders straight during the opening sequence. Like you, I went a very-long time between cutaways; over ten years. Like you, my next two were in a wingsuit; just not two in a row like you. I realized right away that it was imperative that I do everything in my power to make for clean deployments if I was going to make wingsuiting a primary discipline. Like you, I am also an "old" skydiver (laugh away Texas boys!). I very-clearly remember the Pintail canopy. What I remember about it was that it was notorious for spin-ups back in the day (when I was jumping an Excallibur). I can't fathom that canopy as a reasonable choice for wingsuiting. Question? You stated that you had at least 500 jumps on the canopy; is it in trim? Do you generally, on "regular" skydives, reach for the risers during deployment to keep it straight or to catch it with the risers if it starts to spin? If so, find another "squarer" canopy for your wingsuit flights. Yes, there are plenty of people that get away with jumping very-HP mains with a wingsuit, but there really aren't that many who choose that path who do NOT have chops. Me? I traded one of my Velocities for a Sabre2, albeit a very small one. It was the smart thing to do. Take care, Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 October 15, 2006 QuoteI am certain it is a packing problem. Based on your personal observations, if you think it was due to packing problems then definately replace the rubber bands on the bag. Also look at how you are packing the D bag itself into the container. If you aren't already doing so, try packing with the bridle up by not rotating the D bag in the container. Cut corners help if your container has a tight bottom pack tray as does a longer bridle. However, if after taking these steps you still continue to have these issues I would look at your throwing of the pilot chute and your overall body position on deployment. Most line twist/spin issues are caused by an asymmetrical body position during the pull sequence. Body position is critical from the point prior to collapsing the wings through opening until you are seated upright under a canopy and it is flying.Have your buddy watch you during your pull sequence to see if they can spot anything unusual about your body position or how the bag is coming out of the container during the deployment sequence. Having made several jumps on this canopy already with out issue leads me to believe that you might be doing something different at pull time or you may need to look at the lines on your canopy and or posibbly your pilot chute. Just out of curiosity, how long had it been between your last wingsuit jump and the one you had the cutaway on? Being that you had 2 cutaways on 2 different systems I am thinking body position may be your culprit. A lot can be said for currency in a wingsuit."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #8 October 15, 2006 My profile was written before I was converted! The Vortex II is a pull out and I use it as my first rig for working jumps Wingsuiting is my new first dicipline but I am using my Racer for it which was my second rig. I like it because the main container drops away wwhen opened. I have a 9'' bridle. It was also converted to BOC so I could use it for wingsuiting. As for weak throw, will work on that. My preferance is a pull out deplyment since a throw out nearly killed me on my last mal all those years ago. With a pull out I always give a strong pull and throw. The BOC is not much different. I did further wingsuit jumps today with no change in that department without a problem. But food for thought. My Pintail was one of the last made and was tweaked by the designer. It is a sweet canopy. It has a new line set (50 jumps) etc. I figured better the devil you know when I started wingsuiting. It is also what I had and was not sure if I would be converted to wingsuiting (sic). Yes it is time to change it. Reaching for risers is not a habit but a solution if there is a problem if they are asymetrical in line twists and as a crew dog a fast collision avoidance method in close traffic. Thanks for the input and I am glad to be living and not having to follow the white light quiet yet. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #9 October 15, 2006 My first chop was the second jump of the morning and the back to back was the following morning. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #10 October 15, 2006 QuoteI did further wingsuit jumps today with no change in that department without a problem. Was that under the same canopy(s) or are you using a different canopy? QuoteMy first chop was the second jump of the morning and the back to back was the following morning. Prior to that first chop, how long had it been since you last jumped a wingsuit?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #11 October 15, 2006 QuoteThat last bit, about a strong throw, can make up for alot. A weak throw is a prime cause for linetwists, particularly in wingsuits. Make sure you throw strong and keep your shoulders straight during the opening sequence. Really? I know the strong throw is important but I hadn't heard that it would cause linetwists before. Could you explain the thinking behind that - is it a body position thing, or bag extraction dynamics?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 October 15, 2006 I think it's both, actually. Weak throws allow your PC to flop around behind you until it finally catches air. PC hesitations due to weak throws are quite common. Linetwists are common when the bag pulls off your bag slowly and when you haven't quickly-enough squared your body up after the throw. These occurences are not wingsuit-specific, but greatly compounded due to the forward flight trajectory and rearward deployment in a wingsuit. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #13 October 15, 2006 QuotePC hesitations due to weak throws are quite common. I've certainly found that out already Cheers for the answer, all the more reason to chuck that thing as far away from me as possibleDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratman05 0 #14 October 15, 2006 ZP pilot chutes also like to "bounce" around when in the burble. I do a lot of CRW (4 way rotation comp) and run into the same issues with that. A weak pitch puts it in the burble and then you start looking around wondering why it's not deploying. Thats when off heading openings happen. the other issue (I think discussed), is when the PC doesn't come off straight back, it will pull to one side. A longer bridle does help, but as Chuck and Scott have said many times, a strong pitch is all that's needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildchild 0 #15 October 16, 2006 Hey Steve Good on you for handling two in a row. And thanks for not chopping mine on the next one and making it three!!!. Now hurry up and get packed up so we can jump together next weekend. ____________________________ "If there is doubt, there is no doubt." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #16 October 16, 2006 My last wingsuit jump was the weekend before. First wingsuit jump of the day was on the pintail and on the second was the mal on the same canopy. Next wingsuit jump the following day on the borrowed rig also a mal. The fourth wingsuit jump of the weekend also on borrowed gear (Wildchild aka Tamsyn) without a problem. My conclusion was that the primary issue was packing but from the feedback from Scott and Chuck I must reconsider my choice of main and pay better attention to pitching harder. Thanks for the input Steve --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #17 October 16, 2006 Hi Steve, Sorry to be joining the thread late. I got your text message yesterday but was jumping, and after hearing Tamsyn had graduated from the GTi to your S3, figured it had something to do with that. As many on this forum will know, I'm pretty anti eliptical when it comes to wingsuits. A huge percentage (Something like 11 out of 20) of my early 1st flight students had a wingsuit cutaway within their 1st 20 wingsuit jumps. I won't teach an under 500 jump bird on an eliptical anymore. Glad you're alive and still learning. Do you know if any of the local birds are coming up to Nylstroom to jump the PAC in November? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildchild 0 #18 October 16, 2006 Hi T If Steve isn't going to be in Nylstroom, his S3 definitely will . We're trying to round up a few Kzn birds to do the trip, so will definitely see you guys there!!____________________________ "If there is doubt, there is no doubt." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #19 October 16, 2006 hi STEVE little late too ! Glad to hear all went well...I think there is some very good info higher up in the thread and im sure you will make use ! Like Bernard/Tonto and I said that morning when we did the course with you guys - WS is a gear dependant discipline ... we don’t recommend using elliptical canopies to WS especially if its your chosen discipline, You can do it and loads of people do it but know that there its MUCH more likely that you will have a cut-away and be prepared (i.e. hard housing risers, higher pulling altitude ect) OR JUST DONT DO IT!!!!! glad your safe and hope to see you at our skills camp 11/12 nov. ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #20 October 16, 2006 The wildcchild and I are recruiting as many as we can, just have to win enough points to be given the leave to go fro the weekend, just knock up a few ceilings etc at home first! --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildchild 0 #21 October 17, 2006 Hmm if I have a word with your wife it sounds like you'll be doing home renovations....then I can take your S3 up!!____________________________ "If there is doubt, there is no doubt." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYDIVE 0 #22 October 19, 2006 I was the "student" on both the jumps completing my training with Steve when it happened. After the 2nd chop I said to Steve : Who's the student and who's the instructor ? Seriously IMO jumping a pintail with a wingsuit you need big balls. A special thanks to Steve for taking the time out to complete my training so I can be a solo birdie now. Oh, I used my new FIREBIRD and hell it's a awesome suit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #23 October 19, 2006 François, I hope the folk you jump with are not to sensitive or they may start talking. You broke my long, mmm pleasant spell. First time I have had to use my own reserve pack job in anger too! Well done on your graduation jumps and now is the time to start learning. We need to go and play in Germany next year. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildchild 0 #24 October 20, 2006 Francois, you really need to train your instructors better . Seriously tho, well done on finishing off those jumps - now we can go play!!!____________________________ "If there is doubt, there is no doubt." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
